Primitive humans violent in California.

What you think about how you think.
User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:54 pm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... ce+News%29

There is a common myth to the effect that primitive people are peaceful and live in peace with their neighbours. The study referenced above about primitives in California shows otherwise. When times are tough, people get violent. 11% of male bodies studied from that era showed physical signs of violence. Females slightly less. I wonder how many wounds left no such trace?

Violence is intrinsic in humans. In my own country, the native Maori people were described by Captain Cook, the first European to study them, as a 'brave and warlike people'. They lived in tribal groups and those tribes were often at war with each other.

The 21st century is actually the most peaceful and most secure time in history and (apparently) prehistory. We have fewer deaths in war as a percentage of the population than any other time. Who would want to live at any other time?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11017
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:07 pm

Lance........ why the need to make things up?

..........................your source for "there is a common myth.............."
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8223
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Poodle » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:25 pm

'Violence is intrinsic in humans in stressful conditions' would be a more accurate reading of that, Lance.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19745
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:30 pm

.

Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10519
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:36 pm

. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7617
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:39 pm

In that link - they didn`t go into the evidence for `forced trauma`, but with 1,000 year old remains, it could only be bone scars. So I wonder whether those scars are distinguishable between forced violence from other humans and natural violence (falls, predation, etc.).

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10519
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:58 pm

An introduction to Forensic Anthropology

The quick answer is yes, accident, predator, weapon cause different microscopic traces on bone. Of course, there may be ambiguous cases, but over all, forensic anthropology is well established science.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7617
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:07 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:An introduction to Forensic Anthropology

The quick answer is yes, accident, predator, weapon cause different microscopic traces on bone. Of course, there may be ambiguous cases, but over all, forensic anthropology is well established science.


Yes – thanks for that link, and I would certainly agree for more recent deaths – but for a crushed skull from 1,000 years ago – a fall off of a cliff, a falling limb from a tree, and a crushing blow from a club – might all show the same cracked/crushed skull.

An arrowhead embedded in unhealed bone might be a simple one to attribute, but it too could be accidental – as from a hunting accident.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:15 am

It is interesting just how many ancient bodily remains contain evidence of human on human violence. The best preserved such body is Otzi, the ice man, and he had a stone arrowhead in his back. Numerous other body remains show such evidence.

If the archaeologist's work on the ancients in California are right, then 11% of males show evidence of such violence. I calculate that the present global rate of death in war is 0.001% of the population each year (from the data in Pinker's book.). This is much, much lower as a rate of violent death.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Lance........ why the need to make things up?

..........................your source for "there is a common myth.............."


Nothing made up Bobbo.
This is the old idea of the "noble savage" which persists among some politically correct people today. To learn more about it, Bobbo, look up the Wiki article on noble savage.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19775
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:22 am

Otzi. Damn.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11017
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:51 am

Nope.........still making things up. The "Noble Savage" exists as a archetypal image....right along side the "Savage Savage."

"Most People" don't have any ideas one way or the other. Myth references are hyperbollic straw man arguments attached to whatever is being published to sell more copy.

Best to avoid the construct.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:56 am

Bobbo

Simply, you are wrong. I said that the idea of primitives being peaceful is a common myth, and my reference supports that. It is an incorrect myth, of course, but commonly held by those who believe what seems palatable to them rather than what the data indicates to be correct. Not that it matters. My thesis is about the behaviour of primitives, not the beliefs of moderns about those primitives.

Incidentally, I do not "make up stuff", and your suggestion that I do is an insult. You may disagree with me, and that is your prerogative. But your disagreement is not evidence that I am 'making stuff up.'

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11017
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:05 am

What is your source for the idea of primitives being peaceful is a myth? Your linked material made no reference to it. There are lots of "notions" floating around out there about everything. How do any of them rise to "a myth?" In USA...our myths only go back 3-4oo years..... yes, the noble indian is there....as stated.... right along side the constantly on the warpath indian. Saying there is a myth....rather spreads one support myth over another. ITS POLITICAL. Not analytical.

If you didn't make it up yourself..........then you have a link?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29416
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Gord » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:32 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170217013044.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Ftop_news%2Ftop_science+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Top+Science+News%29

I noticed the term "primitive" didn't appear in the article. I believe it's considered improper in anthropological circles to refer to people as "primitive" since it's not the people who were different from us, but their resources.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
True Skeptic
Posts: 10208
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:24 am

Bobbo

My main source for saying that primitive people are not peaceful is Steven Pinker's book on the subject of the history of human violence. However, I have also read enough other material to back up that view.

Gord

The word 'primitive' is a bit vague, I agree. However, it is difficult to find suitable alternatives. In this discussion, I am using the word to describe societies with undeveloped technologies.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
True Skeptic
Posts: 10519
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:12 pm

TJrandom wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:An introduction to Forensic Anthropology

The quick answer is yes, accident, predator, weapon cause different microscopic traces on bone. Of course, there may be ambiguous cases, but over all, forensic anthropology is well established science.


Yes – thanks for that link, and I would certainly agree for more recent deaths – but for a crushed skull from 1,000 years ago – a fall off of a cliff, a falling limb from a tree, and a crushing blow from a club – might all show the same cracked/crushed skull.

An arrowhead embedded in unhealed bone might be a simple one to attribute, but it too could be accidental – as from a hunting accident.


Certainly, intent likely would be unknowable.

Microscopes reveal much detail that can be used to distinguish between overtly similar injuries. Even highly fragmented bones can be analyzed successfully. The age of the bones matters very little, as long as they haven't fossilized, which obscures the microscopic details.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11017
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:22 pm

Seemingly not understanding anything that is said to him:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

My main source for saying that primitive people are not peaceful is Steven Pinker's book on the subject of the history of human violence. However, I have also read enough other material to back up that view.
Personally, I can go with the word/notion/concept/label "primative"........but the subject is MYTH. My position without authority is the subject is too varied, undefined, and fractured to comprise any common useage of the word myth outside of making up a straw man to oppose.

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gord

The word 'primitive' is a bit vague, I agree. However, it is difficult to find suitable alternatives. In this discussion, I am using the word to describe societies with undeveloped technologies.
Again..... the SUBJECT is not vagueness but rather the opposite: that it is specific enough to be disfavored and not used.

You know..................... words make a difference. They can be used with precision........ or to totally obscuring the subject, and one's own thinking, and all manner of other things. On purpose......... or not.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Subaru7
New Member
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby Subaru7 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:00 am

'
Some societies of Original People are violent, some are exceptionally peaceful.

People are not naturally violent or non-violent. All depends on the conditions in which they live.

Google "Ifaluk" and "peaceful cultures".

My favorite peaceful societies are the Ifaluk in the Yap Islands, and the Semai of Malaysia.
.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 11017
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Primitive humans violent in California.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:36 am

Sub: what Myths are you aware of?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


Return to “Brain, Mind, & Consciousness”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest