Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby donnie » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:44 am

Last edited by donnie on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby donnie » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:47 am

And youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYOA6LnqMw Dr Robin Carhart-Harris

Faculty of Medicine, Department of Medicine

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:33 pm

Extremely interesting links donnie, I've been following that research for years and the results (as I always knew they would be) look amazingly positive, but you appear to have posted in the wrong thread?
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:36 pm

donnie wrote:And youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYOA6LnqMw Dr Robin Carhart-Harris

Faculty of Medicine, Department of Medicine


Oooo ok I see a link now, before I watch this hour long lecture is it just merely Hameroff introducing the talk or does Harris actually mention the Orch-OR quantum theory as a viable mechanism to explain the results of his and Prof Nutts studies into psilocybin and MDMA ?
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:35 am

zeuzzz wrote:
donnie wrote:And youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYOA6LnqMw Dr Robin Carhart-Harris

Faculty of Medicine, Department of Medicine


Oooo ok I see a link now, before I watch this hour long lecture is it just merely Hameroff introducing the talk or does Harris actually mention the Orch-OR quantum theory as a viable mechanism to explain the results of his and Prof Nutts studies into psilocybin and MDMA ?


To save other readers the time, this talk does not in anyway link the recent studies into MDMA or psilocybin with the orch-or model of consciousness, even if Hameroff did introduce the speakers, so these posts can be ignored from overall progress of this thread.

Thanks for the awesome links donnie (I've not seen these before, so thanks a lot in advance), but I suggest taking your views on these matters into a more relevant thread on this forum, one of which I started myself. :)
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:16 am

Thanks, zeuzzz.

However, if I may, I found the "shrinking self/ego", "expanding" and "becoming one with everything" (not talking pizza here) that seems to occur with certain connections diminishing (others seemingly are strengthened) within the brain (as described happening and seen during fMRI) with use of psychedelics, but also meditation, and am wondering if something similar occurs during NDEs.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Dimebag » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:52 am

kennyc wrote:
donnie wrote:
kennyc wrote:.....

Would you let him do brain surgery on YOU?

So tell me how anesthesia works.


Irrelevant. Answer my question would you let Penrose do brain surgery on YOU?

Hell no! He'd be all up in there poking around in my micro tubules. :lol:

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:06 am

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Belated Happy New Year, Dimebag. :wave: How are ya, how's the offspring?
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:56 am

scrmbldggs wrote:However, if I may, I found the "shrinking self/ego", "expanding" and "becoming one with everything" (not talking pizza here) that seems to occur with certain connections diminishing (others seemingly are strengthened) within the brain (as described happening and seen during fMRI) with use of psychedelics, but also meditation, and am wondering if something similar occurs during NDEs.


There are NDEs where you are one with god who is everything:

"I remember a near-death experiencer say that their experience of being one with God was like suddenly knowing absolutely everything - like suddenly becoming aware of every grain of sand in the universe and knowing why it was put there." (Kevin Williams)


Taken from: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research21.html

"God is everywhere because nothing exists that is not a part of God. God is neither a man nor a woman nor a thing. Life itself is God." (P.M.H. Atwater)


Taken from: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research21.html

Some people claim that they had ego death in NDEs or after them realized ego death but I only found this:

I feel like each spiritual awakening I've had in my life was similar to the description of Near Death Experiences others have had. This page is dedicated to those who wish to share their experiences and read about NDE's others have had.

I believe that death is the most amazing experience we each will have, and is the absolute peak of one's life. It is something to look forward to, and is not to be feared. The following stories show how we can truly enjoy life and embrace death at the same time. It is through this embrace of both extremes that we become fully alive, present and even healed.

I have always said to people who are facing death to know it is their Ego who is clinging to life, afraid to explore the beyond, and it is this "clinging" that is causing all their suffering. The death that each of us could use on a daily basis is this melting and merging with our Ego. The death of the ego opens our mind to the entire Universe beyond. This state of no-mind is what true meditation is like and only brings us into a sense of gratitude, humbleness and reverence for this amazing experience called life. The day we embrace death is the day we know that we do not die. That we actually do go on....and on...and on!


Taken from: http://www.enlightenedbeings.com/near_d ... ience.html

Also here:

It's taken nearly 20 years to talk about my NDE. I experienced one when just a child of 6 years. I don't remember very much about that one except I was sure that I was surrounded by a huge Love. Then many years later another NDE. This one much more significant and I shall not forget even one detail. As I write this I realize you are probably thinking "She's not saying much about her experience" and you'd be absolutely right.
I will do so, all in due time but first I have a vital question for each of you. I hope you will take the time to answer me because I have almost been afraid to seek the answers from NDE experiencers. Well, here goes.
About 7 years after my NDE, I went through a major change that I have come to lable as "An Ego Death" and "Restructure of Ego".
It was for all the World like a Vision Quest completed by a Shaman. Oh yes, I became aware of so much knowledge during and following my NDE but it all increased infinitely following this total surrender.
So, HAVE YOU HAD AN EGO DEATH? ARE YOU INDEED NO LONGER THE SAME PERSON? DO YOU HAVE A CONNECTION WITH THE UNIVERSE THAT YOU NEVER BEFORE IMAGINED?
I shall wait to hear.


Taken from: http://curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=563171

This one also claims a NDE thanks to some drugs:

I had smoked salvia once before and felt some threshold effects, but this time I planned on breaking through and getting level 5 effects. After the first hit, I felt the familiar sensation of salvia overtaking me. I loaded the bowl again, as best I could, and smoked another huge hit. It's possible that I smoked another bowl after that but I cannot be sure. What I felt then was this:

Everything went black, I might have shut my eyes. It was a feeling of rebirth, a near death experience. As though all of reality had been a play on stage, and suddenly I realized that I was on stage; suddenly I realized that I was in an entirely different dimension, perhaps shell. I had a waking awareness that I was in a new reality, THE reality; somewhere outside of the dimension of the living. Only I didn't perceive this as it really was; a drug induced near death or out of body experience. I didn't realize I’d taken a drug. I could still feel the grass underneath my palms, but I didn't know what it was. Whatever it was, I was aware of being a part of it, of literally being attached to it, 'grown' into it; it just became another part of the other dimension I was in, a tattered artifact of the now forgotten reality of the day to day.

I lost all contact with the physical reality around me, and indeed the reality of my own existence itself. I felt as though I had entered the ever-present spirit realm. My mind tried to grasp onto this fact, to make sense of what was happening, but for a few minutes that was impossible. This was not a surface high, the ego-loss was total. I was totally out of my mind in every way. Then, once I regained my senses enough to realize that I was under the influence of salvia divinorum, I began to panic. The whole experience was so alien and terrifying that I wanted the feelings to end right then; I wanted to be back in the comfortable reality of my home. But of course, I couldn't stop the trip. The more I resisted, the more I panicked as I had the retrospectively unfounded realization that I might never be able to return to reality; that I might have opened doors in my consciousness that could never be shut. I imagined trying to live my life in this condition, and the panic just kept getting more and more intense. If I’d had a weapon nearby, I might have harmed myself.

I should say that this was my first experience with hallucinogens. I was totally unprepared for the sheer power and magnitude of the experience; and it is true that even seasoned trippers can be totally blown away by the salvia experience. The disorientation and the totality of the experience and my profound lack of personal control over it were terrifying. If I ever do approach salvia again, I will do it with extreme respect and consideration for my trip factors. The dimensions I visited while under the influence seem totally real, even in retrospect.

Exp Year: 2003 ID: 25147
Gender: Male


Taken from: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=25147
"Death Dies Hard." - Deathstars.

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:40 am

So again, no separate consciousness apart from the brain, just a seeming difference with a change in brain functions...

It also might be of interest that the test subjects spoken of by Dr. Carhart-Harris all were healthy individuals with either an interest in spirituality or previous experience with the use of psychedelics. They would not allow people with schizophrenia, or a family history of schizophrenia, into the study. It would seem that different people react very differently to such things.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:37 am

scrmbldggs wrote:So again, no separate consciousness apart from the brain, just a seeming difference with a change in brain functions...

It also might be of interest that the test subjects spoken of by Dr. Carhart-Harris all were healthy individuals with either an interest in spirituality or previous experience with the use of psychedelics. They would not allow people with schizophrenia, or a family history of schizophrenia, into the study. It would seem that different people react very differently to such things.


Could you please explain it what you meant by this? I did not watch the video and do not have the time for it. I got this from your text you wrote:

That no dualism is taking place and that consciousness is according to the brain of the person.

I was however listening to this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7aieKPyP8c

Quite fascinating and he does not state any woo stuff from what I can tell. He is just claiming that thanks to drugs all our memories are coming to fruition even from childhood that they are living their childhood again. Which I found fascinating this even more shows that NDEs are a product of a drugged brain who is dying.

Also he claims that our brain creates reality from pieces it has acquired during its life. Can see nothing bad against this. I would consider him a normal materialistic proponent and nothing more.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Dimebag » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:38 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
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Belated Happy New Year, Dimebag. :wave: How are ya, how's the offspring?

Hi scrmbldggs, a late happy new year to you too! I'm well thanks, and the bub is doing great, I am now getting a full nights sleep again. :P

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:54 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, zeuzzz.

However, if I may, I found the "shrinking self/ego", "expanding" and "becoming one with everything" (not talking pizza here) that seems to occur with certain connections diminishing (others seemingly are strengthened) within the brain (as described happening and seen during fMRI) with use of psychedelics, but also meditation, and am wondering if something similar occurs during NDEs.



Pizza, :lol: He said Pizza! :lol: One With Everything! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:53 pm

Shen1986 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:So again, no separate consciousness apart from the brain, just a seeming difference with a change in brain functions...

It also might be of interest that the test subjects spoken of by Dr. Carhart-Harris all were healthy individuals with either an interest in spirituality or previous experience with the use of psychedelics. They would not allow people with schizophrenia, or a family history of schizophrenia, into the study. It would seem that different people react very differently to such things.


Could you please explain it what you meant by this? I did not watch the video and do not have the time for it. I got this from your text you wrote:

That no dualism is taking place and that consciousness is according to the brain of the person.

Correct. I was wondering what donnie was trying to show with that video.


I was however listening to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7aieKPyP8c

Quite fascinating and he does not state any woo stuff from what I can tell. He is just claiming that thanks to drugs all our memories are coming to fruition even from childhood that they are living their childhood again. Which I found fascinating this even more shows that NDEs are a product of a drugged brain who is dying.

Also he claims that our brain creates reality from pieces it has acquired during its life. Can see nothing bad against this. I would consider him a normal materialistic proponent and nothing more.

I agree.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:36 pm

kennyc wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, zeuzzz.

However, if I may, I found the "shrinking self/ego", "expanding" and "becoming one with everything" (not talking pizza here) that seems to occur with certain connections diminishing (others seemingly are strengthened) within the brain (as described happening and seen during fMRI) with use of psychedelics, but also meditation, and am wondering if something similar occurs during NDEs.



Pizza, :lol: He said Pizza! :lol: One With Everything! :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol:

Exactly. It seems some effects from meditation, drugs, or NDEs on the brain have rather similar outcomes.

Maybe dehydration/starvation, too.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:48 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Exactly. It seems some effects from meditation, drugs, or NDEs on the brain have rather similar outcomes.

Maybe dehydration/starvation, too.


Doubtful that any of these separate experiences can be lumped into the same category and thus discarded as less real to be honest, I'd certainly not link your last two to the other three at least.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:53 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
kennyc wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Thanks, zeuzzz.

However, if I may, I found the "shrinking self/ego", "expanding" and "becoming one with everything" (not talking pizza here) that seems to occur with certain connections diminishing (others seemingly are strengthened) within the brain (as described happening and seen during fMRI) with use of psychedelics, but also meditation, and am wondering if something similar occurs during NDEs.



Pizza, :lol: He said Pizza! :lol: One With Everything! :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol:

Exactly. It seems some effects from meditation, drugs, or NDEs on the brain have rather similar outcomes.

Maybe dehydration/starvation, too.


You know I just re-read this article in Aeon today I think I posted a thread on it a while back .... this guy 'gets it!':

http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/how ... ess-works/
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:14 am

zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Exactly. It seems some effects from meditation, drugs, or NDEs on the brain have rather similar outcomes.

Maybe dehydration/starvation, too.


Doubtful that any of these separate experiences can be lumped into the same category and thus discarded as less real to be honest, I'd certainly not link your last two to the other three at least.

I really don't know. Oxygen deprivation, starvation and dehydration (even sleep deprivation) all can produce hallucinations.

The process of a body shutting down area by area during hypothermia for example, would make it seem plausible that the same occurs in a brain that is without the necessary ingredients to keep it going, or functioning fully. It would place emphasis on that which is necessary to keep the body going, but perhaps not the higher functions.

Psilocybin/psychedelics diminish and enhance connectivity in various areas of the brain at the same time. It does seem to have similarities.

And it is well known that when some areas of the brain are not required to perform, others can be strengthened (such as when vision is not required/active, hearing is improved).

All that makes it seem at least plausible to me that it could be.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Major Malfunction » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:39 am

Whenever I see this topic I think of my Scottish Grandfather. Och-aye!
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:42 am

Middle Earth.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:00 pm

A quick poke ...

Shen1986 wrote:I am a materialist here so I will defend this stance..I know that materialism has his "holes" by these "holes" I mean that everything is not known yet but so is science. It searches for answers..


What would you say to this brief clip on materialism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10MV7GyfGXU

Also from my blog on this subject, which I approach this from a quite OTT perspective ...

"Let me describe the state of play here. The way science works is that science respects fidelity of theory to experimental results. What really thrills a scientist is when a theory makes predictions down to 4 or 5 decimal points and then you perform and experiment and it's spot on, so now everyone involved is fairly confident they are on the right track. But only one science is ever that good to that many sig fig; physics (macrophysics). Shortly following is chemistry, it's good, but its not that good. Then we have biology, ecology, demography, etc, these are pretty loose. Sociology is even looser. And this is how science has been structured for several thousand years starting with Gallileo and physics, it's been a pyramid of envy directed towards the paradigmatic science of physics that can produce this unrivaled congruence between theory and experimental data.

So physics continues to charge forward into matter, asking deeper questions. But when you pass the atomic level, where leptons like electrons, baryons and mesons, etc, are the fundamental forms of matter, things change. It's like smoking DMT. Utter madness breaks out in the properties of matter. Whereas before you had these wonderfully exact models you now have backwards flowing time, quantum entanglement, bell non locality, superposition, quantum teleportation, wave particle duality arising in different situations depending on the observer, singularities. The best definition for a singularity is a point where all the rules cancel because you don't know what the hell else to do, same applies for the singularities evoked in the center of black holes. Nature does not make zero dimensional points we can study, or singularities in black holes with 'infinite mass/dimensions/etc'. These are placeholders revealing shortcomings with theories rather than actual real things, any attempt to give a dimensionless point properties is nothing more than hypostatization, and is evidence of the lack of understanding by many between a metaphysical mathematical like a point and the magnitude of physically testable things.

It used to be in physics there was only one singularity; The Big Bang. And so one singularity is OK, essentially science said, give us one free miracle, and we can run it from there onwards. Then relativity came along and introduced the concept of black holes, also not helped by the extraneous extrapolation of perturbation theory derived masses of bodies in our solar system to the cosmos at large. And what do black holes have in the center of them? A singularity. And how many black holes are there in the universe? Something like 10^14, at a guess. That's a lot of singularities for a theory that at first only wanted one to use as a springboard to overcome the cause and effect problem and for a theory that should be trying to avoid producing singularities. In effect 10^14 singularities is an admission of total intellectual defeat. If there are 10^14 singularities your not even doing science, you certainly can't deduce anything meaningful about their properties, you might as well be channeling atlantis or something.

So it troubles me because I think this quantum mechanics is rich, physics is feeding back, and a model of consciousness will eventually come out of studying the properties of the deeper levels of matter. But the conclusions are all going to support the non scientific non rational fasions; in other words bell nonlocality is real, all matter in the universe is in contact with all other matter through some sort of entanglement of higher space based on their original connectivity, quantum teleportation is a possibility, these violations of backwards flowing time and rational casuistry are all real, superposition and the same particle being in multiple locations at the same time is real.

In other words science/physics prosecuted its agenda of deconstructing nature to the point where it shot itself in the foot, it let loose the elves of madness, paradox, peculiarity and contradiction. And in terms of something relating to consciousness that can relate to these confounding properties, it would have to be DMT and psychedelics. There appears to be sketchy blueprint of a bridge between quantum physics and a more realistic model of consciousness being constructed based on the similarities between the peculiarity, paradox and contradictions of a DMT experience and the madness, paradox, peculiarity and contradiction of quantum theory. Penrose et al have made a noble start already.

Matter is not lacking in magic, when you get down to quantum levels; matter is magic. When you get to the bedrock of it all, reality seems far more congruent with a DMT flash than a mechanical clockwork machine.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:24 am

zeuzzz wrote:Whereas before you had these wonderfully exact models you now have backwards flowing time, quantum entanglement, bell non locality, superposition, quantum teleportation, wave particle duality arising in different situations depending on the observer, singularities. The best definition for a singularity is a point where all the rules cancel because you don't know what the hell else to do, same applies for the singularities evoked in the center of black holes.


You are jumping here to quick conclusions. It can be weird. It can be strange but it does not mean there are no laws in it. The Atom bomb was also sci-fi when it first came into being and when scientists will be able to crack this and find more laws in it then it can become less then "spooky". Sorry this sounds like a typical New Age rant.

zeuzzz wrote:wave particle duality arising in different situations depending on the observer


Also this is not true anymore. The observer is not a god in quantum physics. This is a typical New Age rant.

zeuzzz wrote:It used to be in physics there was only one singularity; The Big Bang. And so one singularity is OK, essentially science said, give us one free miracle, and we can run it from there onwards.


Another wrong statement. The Big Bang is not a miracle. Miracles are supernatural. The Big Bang can be explained and scientists are working on it. This again sounds like New Age woo.

zeuzzz wrote:So it troubles me because I think this quantum mechanics is rich, physics is feeding back, and a model of consciousness will eventually come out of studying the properties of the deeper levels of matter.


Why Zeuzzz? Why?? Why do you think that something really deep is needed to explain consciousness? Why all people who are on the hippie New Age train think that consciousness is a god?? Maybe consciousness is not so complicated after all. Why do you think that consciousness is such a mystery thing? If it was not thanks to religion consciousness would be taken as something normal. Religion made it that way. Religion made out of consciousness a god.

zeuzzz wrote:Penrose et al have made a noble start already.


No they did not. They made a New Age hippie start. They are claiming we have a soul. Did you actually read that book? No one is arguing that some Quantum mechanics is taking place inside the brain in the deepest levels but claiming that every animal who has eukaryotic cells has a soul is total foolishness. You want to tell me that a fly is on the same conscious level as am I or a bacteria? Or how does that Quantum information keep together when I am dead? Does it go into some Quantum Heaven and this information is together even when I die? The whole Quantum Mind stuff is just another god in the gasp. It is the same formula like done by Chopra. Quantum Mechanics are spooky + Consciousness is spooky = Quantum Mind we have a soul.

Also Hameroff admitted that he is a believer and that is why he did this theory:

For me, spirituality implies:

Interconnectedness among living beings and the universe
A ubiquitous reservoir of cosmic intelligence/Platonic values in touch with our conscious choices and perceptions
Existence of consciousness after death


Taken from: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/skunk.htm

Also Hameroff is not right with one thing prokaryotes does not have microtubes:

The prokaryotes are a group of organisms whose cells lack a membrane-bound nucleus (karyon). The organisms whose cells do have a nucleus are called eukaryotes. Most prokaryotes are unicellular organisms, although a few such as myxobacteria have multicellular stages in their life cycles[1] or create large colonies like cyanobacteria.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryotes

Or here:

Note that prokaryotes do not possess tubulin or microtubules. Prokaryotic (both bacterial and archaeal) flagella are entirely different in structure from eukaryotic flagella.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule

zeuzzz wrote:Matter is not lacking in magic, when you get down to quantum levels; matter is magic. When you get to the bedrock of it all, reality seems far more congruent with a DMT flash than a mechanical clockwork machine.


Nope matter is not magic. Its the New Age woo train which transformed Quantum Mechanics into magic. This is not the case. However you are free to believe what you want Zeuzzz and I think you jumped on the New Age bandwagon with this because it sounds the same.

I will look on the video later on when I have some free time.

PS: Sorry if it sounds harsh but I am sick of these same arguments over and over again. If people would finally use their heads and not swallow everything whole this world would look better then it is now.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:21 pm

Awesome reply, I'll sink my teeth into it when I'm not so high. 14 hours shift deserved a reward when I got in I figured. I can elaborate on some of the points that I think you have taken in the wrong way, I don't think that I've worded the blog very well so that might be my bad.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby zeuzzz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:35 am

Shen1986 wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Whereas before you had these wonderfully exact models you now have backwards flowing time, quantum entanglement, bell non locality, superposition, quantum teleportation, wave particle duality arising in different situations depending on the observer, singularities. The best definition for a singularity is a point where all the rules cancel because you don't know what the hell else to do, same applies for the singularities evoked in the center of black holes.


You are jumping here to quick conclusions. It can be weird. It can be strange but it does not mean there are no laws in it. The Atom bomb was also sci-fi when it first came into being and when scientists will be able to crack this and find more laws in it then it can become less then "spooky". Sorry this sounds like a typical New Age rant.


I was going to reply to this with some facts about the hypostatization of mathematical placeholders, but you've not even mentioned that part. Neither did you explain why the quantum physics phenomenon I listed have no effect to biology.

I don't think it's a new age rant, more a list of quantum effects and reification of scientific theories mathematical constructs and axioms.

zeuzzz wrote:wave particle duality arising in different situations depending on the observer


Also this is not true anymore. The observer is not a god in quantum physics. This is a typical New Age rant.


I never mentioned a god. And why is wave particle duality not true anymore? The double slit experiment as far as I can tell is still one of the most well tested quantum effects.

zeuzzz wrote:It used to be in physics there was only one singularity; The Big Bang. And so one singularity is OK, essentially science said, give us one free miracle, and we can run it from there onwards.


Another wrong statement. The Big Bang is not a miracle. Miracles are supernatural. The Big Bang can be explained and scientists are working on it. This again sounds like New Age woo.


It's not new age woo when you have a viable scientific theory that does away with ex nihlo creation events and can explain all the data usually used in the context of the Big Bang in a steady state universe. My favorite is plasma cosmology (Lerner et als variant, relevant thread) fractal cosmology or causal dynamical triangulation.

zeuzzz wrote:So it troubles me because I think this quantum mechanics is rich, physics is feeding back, and a model of consciousness will eventually come out of studying the properties of the deeper levels of matter.


Why Zeuzzz? Why?? Why do you think that something really deep is needed to explain consciousness?


I think that the current mindset people have about science, that most disciplines have a solid foundation and all we need to do is collect a bit more data to complete each field is severely naive; and no more so is this the case when it comes to consciousness.

The reason I know the current models are either lacking in some pivotal trait, or just based on spurious axioms, is due to spending my entire life studying the nature of consciousness, dreaming, altered states, meditation, hypnagogia, lucid dreaming, etc. If you had shared the same life experiences I have I have no doubt you would think about consciousness differently than from the latest neuroscience journals.

[Why all people who are on the hippie New Age train think that consciousness is a god??


No idea, linking the mysteries inherent with our models of consciousness to an anthropomorphic god seems naive at best, and delusional at worst.

Maybe consciousness is not so complicated after all.


Until we can get past the reductionist train of thought linking nothing more than neural correlates to certain memories the current theories are woefully inadequate to explain peoples conscious experiences. When it comes to psychedelic experiences this primacy of consciousnesses issue is thrust into the limelight.

Why do you think that consciousness is such a mystery thing?


The current state of the science.

That and the hard problem of consciousness.

If it was not thanks to religion consciousness would be taken as something normal. Religion made it that way. Religion made out of consciousness a god.


I honestly have no comprehension of what you just said ... also why do you keep bringing up religion in a thread about consciousness?

zeuzzz wrote:Penrose et al have made a noble start already.


No they did not. They made a New Age hippie start. They are claiming we have a soul.


I think you are confusing Hameroffs personal opinions and subjective takes on his research with the actual scientific publications.

claiming that every animal who has eukaryotic cells has a soul is total foolishness.


Agreed.

You want to tell me that a fly is on the same conscious level as am I or a bacteria?


Who ever claimed this?

Or how does that Quantum information keep together when I am dead?


I've not seen this idea even addressed from the literature I've read.

The whole Quantum Mind stuff is just another god in the gasp. It is the same formula like done by Chopra. Quantum Mechanics are spooky + Consciousness is spooky = Quantum Mind we have a soul.

Also Hameroff admitted that he is a believer and that is why he did this theory:

For me, spirituality implies:

Interconnectedness among living beings and the universe. A ubiquitous reservoir of cosmic intelligence/Platonic values in touch with our conscious choices and perceptions Existence of consciousness after death


So what what he believes in? Kary Mullis who won a nobel prize thinks that Aids is a man made epidemic, that climate change is a worldwide hoax. Doesn't invalidate his work on the polymerase chain reaction.

Also Hameroff is not right with one thing prokaryotes does not have microtubes:

The prokaryotes are a group of organisms whose cells lack a membrane-bound nucleus (karyon). The organisms whose cells do have a nucleus are called eukaryotes. Most prokaryotes are unicellular organisms, although a few such as myxobacteria have multicellular stages in their life cycles[1] or create large colonies like cyanobacteria.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryotes

Or here:

Note that prokaryotes do not possess tubulin or microtubules. Prokaryotic (both bacterial and archaeal) flagella are entirely different in structure from eukaryotic flagella.


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule
[/quote]

Well noticed. This is a far from pivotal point for the theory however.

zeuzzz wrote:Matter is not lacking in magic, when you get down to quantum levels; matter is magic. When you get to the bedrock of it all, reality seems far more congruent with a DMT flash than a mechanical clockwork machine.


Nope matter is not magic. Its the New Age woo train which transformed Quantum Mechanics into magic.


Is this a new type of quantum physics denial-ism?

This is not the case. However you are free to believe what you want Zeuzzz and I think you jumped on the New Age bandwagon with this because it sounds the same.


I try not to believe in anything, I just see where the literature and evidence leads me.

PS: Sorry if it sounds harsh but I am sick of these same arguments over and over again. If people would finally use their heads and not swallow everything whole this world would look better then it is now.


Which arguments do you think I'm re-hashing? Please be as exact as possible.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:27 am

zeuzzz wrote:I was going to reply to this with some facts about the hypostatization of mathematical placeholders, but you've not even mentioned that part. Neither did you explain why the quantum physics phenomenon I listed have no effect to biology.


What are you talking about?? I did not refute that Quantum Mechanics has some effect on biology? I just said that it can be strange and so on and sci-fi to us now but in the future it can look like a normal thing. I am not refuting anything here, zeuzz? Please read my reply there to understand what I wanted to say..

zeuzzz wrote:I never mentioned a god. And why is wave particle duality not true anymore? The double slit experiment as far as I can tell is still one of the most well tested quantum effects.


This is why. There are too many interpretations of this experiment as one thing and we do not know anything for sure and I think even scientists are bubbling their heads over this also to this day. So how a person like us can be judges here? We get only the basics. Also this is interesting which changed my mind on that matter:

Quantum Mechanics Without the Bohr(ing) Stuff

Left: Physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1933, exhibiting the fashion taste scientists could get away with even then.

Quantum mechanics is notorious for tangling people’s minds up. Part of the problem lies in the complicated mathematical formulation: in a typical American physics curriculum, a serious study of quantum mechanics shows up in the third or fourth year and has a large number of prerequisites in both the physics and math departments. Famous physicists such as Richard Feynman have gone so far as to say that nobody actually understands quantum mechanics, and a lot of professors when they teach the subject will reassure their students that it works, even if the interpretation eludes them.

Many (perhaps even most) physicists treat the whole theory as a black box, something that provides very good predictions, but that will lead to madness if you try to figure out why it works the way it does. However, it’s worth our while to go over the structure of quantum mechanics to see why the latest experiment is potentially very important.

The central equation of quantum mechanics is a wave equation, known as the Schrödinger equation (named for its discoverer, Erwin Schrödinger, known for the infamous cat). As with any other mathematical equation relating to physics, you put in different parameters to characterize a particular physical situation and solve it; in this case solutions are known as wave functions. A given wave function represents the state of a system, which may be one or more photons, electrons, atoms, or any number of other entities. The state itself describes the probability that a system has a particular position, momentum, spin, etc.

Outside of quantum mechanics, statistics and probabilities are usually most useful when describing large numbers of things: what is the likelihood that a particular hand in poker turns up, or how many people will vote for a candidate for president based on demographic information. A single person votes in a given way with no uncertainty (the year 2000 presidential election aside), so the statistics you see in poll data are based on a large population. The wave function assigns statistical information to a individual system: what the possible outcomes of a measurement will be, even if the experiment is performed on a single photon.

One aspect is uncertainty. All experiments have uncertainty attached to them, simply because no equipment is perfect. Where quantum mechanics differs is by saying that even with perfect equipment, there will be a fundamental limit to how well a measurement can be performed. That uncertainty is directly connected to the wave-like character of matter and light: if you have a water wave traveling across the ocean, what is the precise position of the wave? How fast is it moving?

The answer isn’t so clear, simply because the wave takes up a finite amount of space and may overlap with other waves in such a way that separating out which wave is which is too hard; also, different parts of the wave may be moving at different rates. Therefore, the position and momentum are best described by an average and a spread of values around that average, which carries the name uncertainty – not in the sense of doubt but in the sense of indeterminacy. There is an inherent limit to our ability to describe these physical quantities, with no need for soul-searching on the part of scientists.

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us what the minimum uncertainty for quantum waves must be: the smaller the uncertainty in position, the larger the uncertainty in momentum – and vice versa. Returning to the double-slit experiment, the wavelength (the size of the wave, in other words) depends on momentum, so the entire interference pattern is in effect a measurement of momentum.

However, that means determination of which slit the photon passed through – which is a measurement of position – has an increased uncertainty. Although the graininess of the interference pattern indicates where an individual photon lands, determining what path it took to get to that spot is not generally possible.

So What Does It All Mean, Anyway?

Enter the experiment by Kocsis et al.: by reducing the resolution of the measurements, the experimenters increased the uncertainty in the momentum, allowing a better chance at determining the trajectories of an ensemble of photons. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle still stands, in other words, and is an essential part of this experiment (whatever some headlines may say).

The difficulty of this measurement should not be overstated! After all, quantum mechanics has been around for nearly 100 years and based on the controversies surrounding the Copenhagen interpretation, had it been easy, surely someone would have attempted it by now.

The experiment involves producing individual photons from a quantum dot and measuring their momentum indirectly through the polarization of each photon. Because polarization is correlated with momentum, but not exactly the same quantity, measurement of one doesn’t strongly affect the other, preserving the state of the system fairly well. The final position of the photon is measured using a charge-coupled device (CCD), similar to what you find in ordinary digital cameras or telescope imaging devices.

By repeating the experiment for a large number of individual photons and moving the apparatus to measure polarization at various points along the trajectories, the researchers were able to reconstruct the paths not of the individual photons but of the complete ensemble of all photons – yet due to the statistical nature of quantum mechanics, information about the individual photons within the system can still be inferred.

One possible interpretation of the experiment is in line with the pilot wave model, formulated by Louis de Broglie with later additions by David Bohm. In this view, the wave function describes a statistical distribution that says what physical properties the point-like particle is likely to have – while the particles themselves may follow precise trajectories, even if those are very difficult to track. This certainly is consistent with what we see in detectors, although one might ask whether the pilot waves themselves can ever be directly observed – and if they can’t, whether they can be said to be "real".

Obviously a detailed discussion of that idea is too much for one post, so I won’t try. However, if the complete trajectory of a photon can be observed in some way and its interference pattern still exists, it indicates that indeed a view of quantum physics consistent with a realists’ perspective is possible (the kicking of rocks being completely optional).

Has the Copenhagen interpretation fallen? Has the pilot wave interpretation been vindicated? The cautious scientific answer must be "not yet". After all, there is nothing in this experiment that isn’t completely compatible with the mathematical predictions of quantum mechanics, so any valid interpretation – including the Copenhagen interpretation – will describe its results.

However, measurements such as this make it harder to say smugly that photons don’t follow any particular trajectory and that it’s unreasonable to expect them to. I for one look forward to more experiments along these lines.


Taken from: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... ally-show/

It's not new age woo when you have a viable scientific theory that does away with ex nihlo creation events and can explain all the data usually used in the context of the Big Bang in a steady state universe. My favorite is plasma cosmology (Lerner et als variant, relevant thread) fractal cosmology or causal dynamical triangulation.


Here I only pointed out that you are claiming that the Big Bang is a miracle. That is not true. Its not a miracle.. That is all. Therefore I said that its a new age rant because it sounded that way. A miracle is supernatural and the Big Bang is a natural phenomena.

I think that the current mindset people have about science, that most disciplines have a solid foundation and all we need to do is collect a bit more data to comp[lete each field is severely naive, and no more so is this the case when it comes to consciousness.


I agree here on some part that science is in a bad shape. However not all. The current materialistic model is doing fairly good. Nothing is shaking it so far. So I think we should stick to the plan and first research the consciousness like it is and not jump to some Quantum stuff.

The reason I know the current models are either lacking in some pivotal trait, or just based on spurious axioms, is due to spending my entire life studying the nature of consciousness, dreaming, altered states, meditation, hypnagogia, lucid dreaming, etc.


Are you adding there all models or just the materialistic ones? I mean if you are also adding there the Quantum Mind model also.

Until we can get past the reductionist train of thought linking nothing more than neural correlates to certain memories thew current theories are woefully inadequate to explain people conscious experience.


Why do you think this?

The current state of the science. That and the hard problem of consciousness.


There are some philosophers that claim there is no hard problem.. So its up to us to choose. I am also a little bit skeptical of the hard problem because Chalmers behaves that he will never be satisfied he even criticized the Quantum Mind that it does not solve the hard problem of consciousness.

I honestly have no comprehension of what you just said ... also why do you keep bringing up religion in a thread about consciousness?


Because the Hard Problem of Consciousness make it so sound that consciousness is something unique to the universe and to people alone. This is not true and people who proposed the Orch-OR model claim the same that consciousness is unique to humans.

I think you are confusing Hameroffs personal opinions and subjective takes on his research with the actual scientific publications.


Nope. His publications write this just look here:

Did Consciousness Cause the Cambrian Evolutionary Explosion?
Stuart Hameroff

In:

Toward a Science of Consciousness II: The 1996 Tucson Discussions and Debates
Editors Stuart Hameroff, Alfred Kaszniak, Alwyn Scott
MIT Press, Cambridge MA
1998, pp.421-437.


http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/pen ... brian.html

Sorry I read even their whole papers. I am not making conclusions before I read their stuff.

Who ever claimed this?


Hameroff..

I've not seen this idea even addressed from the literature I've read.


Because even Hameroff has not the idea how a Quantum Mind can survive death.

So what what he belives in? Kary Mullis who won a nobel prize thinks that Aids is a man made epidemic, that climate change is a worldwide hoax.


This is the problem, Kary Mullis ego grew over him. That is known in a lot of people:

Since winning the Nobel Prize, Mullis has been criticized in The New York Times for promoting ideas in areas in which he has no expertise.[6] He has promoted AIDS denialism,[7][8][9][10][11][12] climate change denial[7] and his belief in astrology.[6][7]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis

Also he began to claim strange stuff after he received his Nobel Prize so I think the ego got over him. Hameroff and Penrose are doing the same and it shows their bias. This is not science. Science is not about a personality cult. Scientists have looked on the Orch-OR model and it was not sound. Even the math was not sound:

The mathematical and scientific basis of Orch-OR is rejected by mainstream mathematicians,[1][2][3] philosophers,[4][5][6][7][8][9] and scientists.[10][11][12][13][14]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrat ... _reduction

Also robotics is making progress. According to their model robotics would fail in the end..However from the newest headlines they are making good progress..

Is this a new type of quantum physics denial-ism?


Nope its. Not. I am just saying that matter is not magic. That is all because you wrote this:

Matter is not lacking in magic, when you get down to quantum levels; matter is magic.


I try not to believe in anything, I just see where the literature and evidence leads me.


The evidence however is not leading that way. The Orch-OR model is not leading us to the truth. I admit that there can be some Quantum Mechanics in the brain but claiming that consciousness is a Quantum Mind in the sense of a immortal soul then that is too stupid and I doubt its true because if yes then when we create Quantum computers then we have created consciousness and my computer can talk to me and even behave like a normal human to some degree. However nothing like that is happening and I do not even see other Quantum Mechanics researchers to be claiming these things besides Deepak Chopra people, where Hameroff is a member of them because he believes in Quantum Healing.

Which arguments do you think I'm re-hashing? Please be as exact as possible.


It used to be in physics there was only one singularity; The Big Bang. And so one singularity is OK, essentially science said, give us one free miracle, and we can run it from there onwards.


Miracle,

Matter is not lacking in magic, when you get down to quantum levels; matter is magic. When you get to the bedrock of it all, reality seems far more congruent with a DMT flash than a mechanical clockwork machine.


Mater is Magic,

Penrose et al have made a noble start already.


Mater is Magic,

Whereas before you had these wonderfully exact models you now have backwards flowing time, quantum entanglement, bell non locality, superposition, quantum teleportation, wave particle duality arising in different situations depending on the observer, singularities. The best definition for a singularity is a point where all the rules cancel because you don't know what the hell else to do, same applies for the singularities evoked in the center of black holes.


Mater is Magic,

This is how I see it. I can be wrong I am just a human. However at least I admit it and do not claim Quantum Minds with certainty like Hameroff who cannot face the criticism.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby donnie » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:09 pm

Fear of death. Its like you got to leave the party and worse the party still going on with out you. Religion. Its ok there's a better party up here and you know what it goes on and on forever. Nobody want's to die. Ok maybe some do. People with mental illness. Being self aware can suck knowing one day we going to die so maybe Hameroff penrose & chopra need to believe in something.. It helps them.

As for me I need real proof but I am open minded.
And as for NDEs they are a real phenomenon. Ok probably hallucinations of a dying brain. Feel good chemical released so what. People are going to believe in what makes them feel better. Nobody knows for sure if consciousness continues after death. We are 90% sure it don't.
And if people who have lost love ones. People like chopra can make them feel better about death. So what.

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:50 pm

donnie wrote:... Nobody knows for sure if consciousness continues after death. We are 90% sure it don't.
...


Yes we do know -- it doesn't. It depends on the body, the brain, there is no hypothesis that would support consciousness/life after death. End of story.

donnie wrote:......People like chopra can make them feel better about death. So what.


The so what is that he and those of his ilk are deceiving people for profit as well as propagating anti-scientific woo which is harmful to society as a whole in the same way religion and belief in the supernatural do....not to mention the republicans, conservatives and their anti-science policies.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:25 pm

One thing with the model I do not get there are other animals which maybe use Quantum Entanglement like the European Robin(the bird not the Batman character):

Magnetoreception[edit]

The avian magnetic compass of the Robin has been extensively researched and uses Vision-Based Magnetoreception, in which the Robin's ability to sense the magnetic field of the earth for navigation is affected by the light entering the bird's eye. The physical mechanism of the Robin's magnetic sense is not fully understood, but may involve quantum entanglement of electron spins.[29]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_R ... oreception

So my problem is that if nature thanks to evolution gave other animals this ability to use some Quantum Mechanics "ability" so that means these animals should also be conscious like Hameroff is telling us and they should be on the same level like us or even more because they use their Quantum "abilities" on a daily basis. However nothing like that is the cause. I will not even go into other woo claims that the Orch-OR model can explain other alleged paranormal powers which do not even exist.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby donnie » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:29 pm

So Orch-OR model is not a hypothesis Kennyc.???

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:33 pm

Shen1986 wrote:One thing with the model I do not get there are other animals which maybe use Quantum Entanglement like the European Robin(the bird not the Batman character):

Magnetoreception[edit]

The avian magnetic compass of the Robin has been extensively researched and uses Vision-Based Magnetoreception, in which the Robin's ability to sense the magnetic field of the earth for navigation is affected by the light entering the bird's eye. The physical mechanism of the Robin's magnetic sense is not fully understood, but may involve quantum entanglement of electron spins.[29]


Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_R ... oreception

So my problem is that if nature thanks to evolution gave other animals this ability to use some Quantum Mechanics "ability" so that means these animals should also be conscious like Hameroff is telling us and they should be on the same level like us or even more because they use their Quantum "abilities" on a daily basis. However nothing like that is the cause. I will not even go into other woo claims that the Orch-OR model can explain other alleged paranormal powers which do not even exist.



I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that robins/birds us Quantum entanglement to detect magnetic fields. There are much simpler ways.....

They recently determined that salmon use the Earth's magnetic field to navigate back to their spawning grounds where they were born.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencen ... z2t140LthK

...and no mention of quantum entanglement...
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:37 pm

donnie wrote:So Orch-OR model is not a hypothesis Kennyc.???


No, it has not been shown to have anything to do with consciousness or life after death. It's BS woo of the worst kind.

It is at best a speculation. A hypothesis must be stated in such a way that it is falsifiable, testable, etc. As posted by Shen earlier the so-called claims it makes are either dis-proven or non-testable.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:39 pm

kennyc wrote:I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that robins/birds us Quantum entanglement to detect magnetic fields. There are much simpler ways.....


So am I. I wrote that maybe they use this ability. We even do not know if in photosynthesis are some Quantum things. What I heard and read the jury is still out if plants use some kind of Quantum mechanism and we do not know this for sure. However I only wanted to point out that if animals and plants have some Quantum "abilities" then they should be on our conscious level or even above when the Orch-OR is true..

Also I am very skeptical about almost everything which begins with the word Quantum besides Quantum Computing and Quantum Computers because there are some solid evidence but for others like Quantum things in living creatures I am very skeptical. It is like the word Quantum became the same like Dark Matter or Dark Energy like a placeholder for some things we cannot understand or do not have yet the evidence for it or explanation.

Thanks for the link about those salmons.
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby donnie » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:01 pm

It is testable
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:03 pm

It's BS woo donnie/mark.

:roll:
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:08 pm

And you need to decide how you want to present this sockpuppet donnie/Mark, your posts in this thread are not consistent with those in the "Question of Existence" thread....
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby donnie » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:11 pm

I am not sayin its real. I am saying it's a hypothesis and is testable too. There are sciencetist taking it seriously and skeptics are out to disapprove 'Orch OR').

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:13 pm

donnie wrote:It is testable Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for seemingly delicate quantum processes.. However, evidence has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis.
After 20 years of skeptical criticism, "the evidence now clearly supports Orch OR," continue Hameroff and Penrose. "Our new paper updates the evidence, clarifies Orch OR quantum bits, or "qubits," as helical pathways in microtubule lattices, rebuts critics, and reviews 20 testable predictions of Orch OR published in 1998 -- of these, six are confirmed and none refuted."
. The recent discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT), corroborates the pair's theory and suggests that EEG rhythms also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations. In addition, work from the laboratory of Roderick G. Eckenhoff, MD, at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that anesthesia, which selectively erases consciousness while sparing non-conscious brain activities, acts via microtubules in brain neurons.

Looks like you forgot to quote where you got this from.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
.

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kennyc
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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby kennyc » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:28 pm

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Re: Hameroff and Penrose have updated their Orch-OR model

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:56 pm

kennyc wrote:http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001619


This is the newest criticism to the model - the one which Hameroff and Penrose are claiming that they updated their own model. Wow. Great work finding this.. Thanks Kenny.

This is because their "new" model was reviewed in August 2013:

Physics of Life Reviews

Available online 20 August 2013

In Press, Corrected Proof — Note to users

Review
Consciousness in the universe: A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory


Taken from: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4513001188

The criticism was you pointed out Kenny was reviewed in November:

Physics of Life Reviews

Available online 8 November 2013

In Press, Corrected Proof — Note to users

Comment
The revised Penrose–Hameroff orchestrated objective-reduction proposal for human consciousness is not scientifically justified: Comment on “Consciousness in the universe: A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory” by Hameroff and Penrose


Taken from: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4513001619
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