Hate speech / free speech

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:25 am

TJ==my response is that you are muddling the issue up on purpose. Although..... since you've been doing this from the start, it may be a fact and not just a response.

OK....I give up. You don't have the linguistic tools to discuss this subject. Fifth Time: defamation laws have nothing to do with Hate Speech Laws. Both use hateful speech but the etymology and application of each is very different. Each has been clearly stated, you can't make the distinction. So stay muddled.
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ==my response is that you are muddling the issue up on purpose. Although..... since you've been doing this from the start, it may be a fact and not just a response.

OK....I give up. You don't have the linguistic tools to discuss this subject. Fifth Time: defamation laws have nothing to do with Hate Speech Laws. Both use hateful speech but the etymology and application of each is very different. Each has been clearly stated, you can't make the distinction. So stay muddled.
You raised defamation... defamation being the term used for libel and slander.
Name where libel, slander, incitement to murder is not illegal...............I'll wait.
It is you who seem to be intentionally muddling the topic of hate speech laws. Or is just accidental - as in not having the skills?

But I must admit... your responses seem quite obtuse to me. Maybe if you slowed down, answered questions and asked for clarification instead of making wild jumps.

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:43 am

Yes........and defamation is not Hate Speech. You cannot defame a people. that is what you have muddled up: equating all utternance of hateFULL speech, with Hate Speech, with illegal (sic) speech.

I'll be very....VERY...surprised if Japan doesn't have anti-defamation laws, even though if it doesn't, its off the topic of Hate Speech............................................................(Japan libel laws): https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+l ... fox-b-1-ab /// First Hit is:

Defamation Laws In Japan | Kelly / Warner Law | Defamation Law ...
kellywarnerlaw.com/japan-defamation-laws/

Under Article 230-1 of the Criminal Code of Japan: “(1) A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than three (3) years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.”

More Draconian that I would support.....so bad....I wonder if it is true? Was I redirected to The Onion?

Japan: lots of paradox's going on there, both good and bad.
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:50 am

Just fyi the above describes what in america would be the TORT of Intentional Infliction of Mental Distress or Invasion of Privacy and so forth. Oops...........say!!==comes close to the Hate Speech you are after? I assume for these torts to work in america, they can't be aimed at a group? Hmmmm..... just apply a little Muddle: "And Bob's bobbo's Your Uncle."

Ha, ha..........once again, I will AFFIRM: USA has speech issues about right. Leading the World.....to bad its not more like money?
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:03 pm

Open question in America right now? someone says "Kill all xyz's" ((bobbo note: my own "sensitivities" to hateful speech are raised when any specific group ID is actually posted....so I would prefer/proffer/and recommend the xyz nondescript or use my own group reference) and a member of xyz sues for Intentional Infliction of Mental Distress. How would/should that kind of case proceed? Since it is not done, afaik, I assume it fails for the distress not being "reasonable". Reasonable: one of the most weasel words in the English/Legal lexicon. Although...I could see such a CIVIL lawsuit winning if the speaker knows xyz was an xyz'r and said it to him personally? Perhaps with his eyes being all appropriately evilly squinty? Yes, sarcasm aside....I would even support such an outcome. Hateful Speech punished CIVILLY under the tort laws. Too expensive? Not satisfying??? So much easier to put the cost of such suits over to the Gubment using CRIMINAL LAW.

Any muddle on the difference between would and should, or, civil and criminal law?
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:19 pm

Here is the muddle on point:
TJrandom wrote:Without naming a specific victim, but rather spewing hate speech against a class of people at a school or business, from a practical standpoint our defamation laws have no meaning.
Correct because what you have muddled above is thinking and saying "hate speech" when you more precisely mean "hateful speech." It is then consistent with MY position that DEFAMATION LAWS would have no effect on this. Neither would food safety laws, fishing quotas, or the price of rice.

Can you hear me now?

Hatefull Speech/laws vs Hate Speech/Laws. I think Mark Twain said "There is a big difference between lightning and a lightning bug." Very prescient man.
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:46 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes........and defamation is not Hate Speech. You cannot defame a people. that is what you have muddled up: equating all utternance of hateFULL speech, with Hate Speech, with illegal (sic) speech.

I'll be very....VERY...surprised if Japan doesn't have anti-defamation laws, even though if it doesn't, its off the topic of Hate Speech............................................................(Japan libel laws): https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+l ... fox-b-1-ab /// First Hit is:

Defamation Laws In Japan | Kelly / Warner Law | Defamation Law ...
kellywarnerlaw.com/japan-defamation-laws/

Under Article 230-1 of the Criminal Code of Japan: “(1) A person who defames another by alleging facts in public shall, regardless of whether such facts are true or false, be punished by imprisonment with or without work for not more than three (3) years or a fine of not more than 500,000 yen.”

More Draconian that I would support.....so bad....I wonder if it is true? Was I redirected to The Onion?

Japan: lots of paradox's going on there, both good and bad.
Bobbi - please do back up. YOU, Y O U, YOU raised defamation - not me. I have not confused hate speech with defamation. I simply addressed YOUR post. Jeez! PLEASE stop being a goldfish!

I did not muddle it up - indeed I clarified it by stating that `standing` prevents these laws (which you claimed could solve the hate speech problems) from having any bearing on the hate speech problem. PLEASE do keep up. (If you don`t understand `standing`, please look it up.)

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Here is the muddle on point:
TJrandom wrote:Without naming a specific victim, but rather spewing hate speech against a class of people at a school or business, from a practical standpoint our defamation laws have no meaning.
Correct because what you have muddled above is thinking and saying "hate speech" when you more precisely mean "hateful speech." It is then consistent with MY position that DEFAMATION LAWS would have no effect on this. Neither would food safety laws, fishing quotas, or the price of rice.

Can you hear me now?

Hatefull Speech/laws vs Hate Speech/Laws. I think Mark Twain said "There is a big difference between lightning and a lightning bug." Very prescient man.
NO, I do not mean `hateful speech` - I mean HATE SPEECH.

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:53 pm

TJ-------I accept we could both be muddled up. Caught by our own shining objects. Sometimes this can be a rewarding process. Propose a topic, point/counterpoint/no definitions, confusion. You know: FREE SPEECH.

Sometimes: an after action report could be useful. Or not.

Sometimes: just starting over with whatever unrecognized residue is present can be helpful.

So: ======================STARTING FRESH==========================
Lance Kennedy wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_sp ... ed_Kingdom

In Britain, as the reference above details, hate speech is banned by law and can get the speaker into all sorts of trouble. In the USA, hate speech is considered to be part of the right to free speech, and while not condoned, is permitted. Who is right ?

Personally, I believe that the government of a nation has a duty to prevent harm to its citizens, and thus has not just the right, but the obligation, to curtail any words or deeds that cause harm to its citizens. But what is your view ?
and I still disagree:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: In my view, the balance of hate speech vs free speech should fall heavily on the side of free speech even WITH THE HARM IT DOES CAUSE, to avoid the even worse horribles that so easily follow when free speech is restricted. Its a too short step to go from protecting racial minorities from the haters to insulated our elected leaders from their malfeasance.

As is so often stated: the remedy for hate speech is: MORE SPEECH. Not to be confused with actual calls for violence. On balance, I think our Free Speech laws is one of the few things the USA has about right.
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:00 pm

Yes, but I disagree - when the hate speech raises to the level of Kill xyxers, Murder xyzers, and is blasted at primary school children or at ethnic busineses. And I further note, that no other laws can, or do, punish this.

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:06 pm

"Not to be confused with actual calls for violence."...which I think is illegal in the main for the purpose of the OP, and if not should be under incitement to commit crime not hate speech.

"Blasting" messages is already a crime of disturbing the peace.

Already illegal and being punished.

so...we mostly agree on these speech issues. As they are mostly already illegal.........no need for "additional" hate speech laws that are vague and ambiguous and have to "rise to" some level to reach what is already illegal. The implication of which is correct: the lower level of speech should be protected FREE SPEECH...which includes hurtful and injurious speech for the ideas it so often protects.
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:49 pm

This amuses me:
According to incident reports collected by the California department of motor vehicles, some Californians are purposely colliding with self-driving cars. The Guardian reports:
On January 10, a pedestrian in San Francisco's Mission District ran across the street to confront a GM Cruise autonomous vehicle that was waiting for people to cross the road, according to an incident report filed by the car company. The pedestrian was "shouting," the report states, and "struck the left side of the Cruise AV's rear bumper and hatch with his entire body." No injuries occurred, but the car's left tail light was damaged. In a separate incident just a few blocks away on January 28, a taxi driver in San Francisco got out of his car, approached a GM Cruise autonomous vehicle and "slapped the front passenger window, causing a scratch." The police were not called in either case.
Do we need special Artifical Intelligence Hate Crimes legislation, or do the current property laws cover the area adequately? Lots of connected issues if one wants to avoid the main event. Should "Oh, sorry: I thought you were a robot" be an effective defense....or as in Japan, should truth be no defense?
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:38 pm

Free speech is not restricted one iota when hate speech is criminalised. After all, it isn`t free speech which is being criminalised, but rather hate speech.

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:04 pm

Well......................there is a waste of a fresh start.

So stupid, it has the air of flippancy.

TJ---it comes down to "values." You aren't "wrong" to desire Free Speech/Ideas/Curiosity/ be criminalized and self censored......People who don't like being challenged and think everyone should be free to think the same way they do, support the position. Its why America is a shining city on the Hill.
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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by TJrandom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:18 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well......................there is a waste of a fresh start.

So stupid, it has the air of flippancy.

TJ---it comes down to "values." You aren't "wrong" to desire Free Speech/Ideas/Curiosity/ be criminalized and self censored......People who don't like being challenged and think everyone should be free to think the same way they do, support the position. Its why America is a shining city on the Hill.
Actually Bobbo - it was an attempt to rise to your standard of discourse - flippant indeed, just as is your shining city on The Hill BS. I`m not very good at it, true enough. This thread has run its course IMO.

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Re: Hate speech / free speech

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:36 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well......................there is a waste of a fresh start.
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