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Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:42 am
by eafe
The reason I say possibility is because consciousness is not explained yet.


Videos explaining personal identity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trqDnLNRuSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17WiQ_tNld4

the body view and the memory view are the 2 presented. Does anyone happen to know a better view than both that doesn't suffer flaws and still show personal identity overtime.

How much change can take place till I am no longer the same? This reminds me of the sorties paradox.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/
To summarize how much grains of sand can I remove no longer a heap.


(I know there is the soul view but i want to ignore talk of soul in this entire conversation. )
What theories in neuroscience could explain personal identity overtime?
.


The star trek transporter. Imagine you are transported to mars. One big flaw is what if the original is not destroyed. You have one person on mars another on earth. Both are the same than diverge right away. Problem adverted. But wait. What if you transport the person 10 years later. You have 10+ and and ten younger version. Does this create a problem? What about if you wait 100 seconds. I know what happens if they are created instantly but what happens if you wait a duration of time and the transporter paradox? Does anyone have a solution that involves the transporter and I am still the same.

Another thing I would like to bring up is

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/per ... 1e7dac16b3

How is personal identity overtime possible, if the Huffington post article is true?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:19 am
by TJrandom
:?: :?: :?:

Overtime - time that is spent working beyond the standard work hours - generally additional hours at the end of a work shift, or additional work on previously scheduled days off. ;)

But, over time, my personal identity does just fine as it only matters in the instant that I consider it, or retroactively in that prior instant of which I recall.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:54 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
"OP has a theory and you're wrong if you don't agree with OP."

We need an emoticon for that.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:34 pm
by OlegTheBatty
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"OP has a theory and you're wrong if you don't agree with OP."

We need an emoticon for that.


The other end of :donkey: ?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:51 pm
by Cadmusteeth
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"OP has a theory and you're wrong if you don't agree with OP."

We need an emoticon for that.
:posting: Not sure about you guys but this one seems appropriate.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:02 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"OP has a theory and you're wrong if you don't agree with OP."

We need an emoticon for that.
:posting: Not sure about you guys but this one seems appropriate.

Image

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:04 pm
by Cadmusteeth
No offense to the op but it seems when someone proposes a new topic and someone else who comments disgrees with the op's view, they get deffensive and indignant.
There have been a lot of people like that comming here. It gets very annoying for everyone here. (Though mostly with me I should say, everyone else seems better able to cope than me)

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:07 pm
by Cadmusteeth
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"OP has a theory and you're wrong if you don't agree with OP."

We need an emoticon for that.
:posting: Not sure about you guys but this one seems appropriate.

Image

"My emote is bigger than yours"
And it's more epic than mine so you win.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:34 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"OP has a theory and you're wrong if you don't agree with OP."

We need an emoticon for that.
:posting: Not sure about you guys but this one seems appropriate.

Image

"My emote is bigger than yours"
And it's more epic than mine so you win.

Size matters.

Image

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:26 pm
by TJrandom
Cadmusteeth wrote:No offense to the op but it seems when someone proposes a new topic and someone else who comments disgrees with the op's view, they get deffensive and indignant.
There have been a lot of people like that comming here. It gets very annoying for everyone here. (Though mostly with me I should say, everyone else seems better able to cope than me)


Am I missing something here? Hasn`t OP only posted once? Or has he adopted another personality and thus also posted under a different username?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:55 pm
by Cadmusteeth
No, you're right.
I was venting. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:10 am
by Matthew Ellard
Cadmusteeth wrote:No, you're right. I was venting. Sorry for the confusion.


"Go for it". The non-researched crap the wooists are posting on our little science forum irritates me quite a lot. It's going to get worse when all the idiots posting pro-Trump rubbish jump ship back to the original "woo" they were posting.

We are already discussing this phenomena in the anti-holocaust denial sub-forum. Many leading deniers have recently "changed tunes" so minor holocaust deniers are giving up and going back to posting about UFOs, Bigfoot and so on.
:D

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:38 am
by TJrandom
Cadmusteeth wrote:No, you're right.
I was venting. Sorry for the confusion.


That is fine... I sometimes think I have truly missed something. Vent on...

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:42 am
by salomed
eafe wrote:The reason I say possibility is because consciousness is not explained yet.


Videos explaining personal identity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trqDnLNRuSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17WiQ_tNld4

the body view and the memory view are the 2 presented. Does anyone happen to know a better view than both that doesn't suffer flaws and still show personal identity overtime.

How much change can take place till I am no longer the same? This reminds me of the sorties paradox.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/
To summarize how much grains of sand can I remove no longer a heap.


(I know there is the soul view but i want to ignore talk of soul in this entire conversation. )
What theories in neuroscience could explain personal identity overtime?
.


The star trek transporter. Imagine you are transported to mars. One big flaw is what if the original is not destroyed. You have one person on mars another on earth. Both are the same than diverge right away. Problem adverted. But wait. What if you transport the person 10 years later. You have 10+ and and ten younger version. Does this create a problem? What about if you wait 100 seconds. I know what happens if they are created instantly but what happens if you wait a duration of time and the transporter paradox? Does anyone have a solution that involves the transporter and I am still the same.

Another thing I would like to bring up is

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/per ... 1e7dac16b3

How is personal identity overtime possible, if the Huffington post article is true?


I think you are confusing the philosophical problem of personal identity (Parfit, Nozic...) with the problem of consciousness.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:12 pm
by Gord
I think he's referring to "Identity Over Time", such as explained here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-time/

I think I'll link to these short youtube videos I've linked to before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TFCMK4i2lo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trqDnLNRuSc&t=78s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17WiQ_tNld4&t=11s

I think the middle video applies to this discussion most particularly.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:03 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
I'd need a real reason to watch those.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:24 pm
by Cadmusteeth
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I'd need a real reason to watch those.

I really see what you did there.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:24 am
by Lance Kennedy
To the best of my knowledge, there is no clear cut definition of, or explanation of, personal identity. I tend to think of it as a pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain. I also see no reason why there could not be two such patterns that are identical. Unlikely, but not impossible. If so, we have a personal identity doubled.

The Star Trek example is only valid if that kind of teleportation becomes possible, which it is not at the moment. Until it does, there is no conundrum.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:08 am
by eafe
Sorry for bringing back this topic. I just have a couple of questions for Lance Kennedy or for anyone who wants to answer.

You stated that pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain make me the same. Can you go into a more detail? But try to keep it simple.

I know you said not to bring up the star trek transporter. What happens if person 1 is not destroyed and you end up with 2 people? Would the 2 people start the same and differentiate. Okay problem solved.

But what happens if there is a great time difference between 1 and 2?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:48 am
by Lance Kennedy
Eafe

You are getting into a realm of speculation where we have no good data. I could offer my own speculation, but I would very likely be wrong.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:52 am
by Poodle
No good data is a way of putting it. In fact, eafe, we have no data at all. You are asking whether fairies really do die if children cease to believe in them. In general, postulating something for which there is no evidence, extrapolating from the postulation and then trying to draw conclusions from the extrapolation is, to be blunt, a complete and utter waste of time.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:41 am
by Gord
eafe wrote:Sorry for bringing back this topic.

Did you watch the three videos I posted?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:51 am
by ElectricMonk
Are we talking Ship of Theseus or Star Trek transporter here?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:16 pm
by craig4
Why not consider identical twins, being as, I don't know, they actually exist? I am one and though it's never happened to me, we do get studied a lot. There should be plenty of data for you.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:04 pm
by Cadmusteeth
Twins are genetically similar but they are effectively two different individuals.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:43 pm
by TJrandom
Puff simply slipped into his cave when Jackie no longer came to play. I`d bet that fairies do the same.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:11 pm
by Matthew Ellard
eafe wrote:You stated that pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain make me the same. Can you go into a more detail? But try to keep it simple.
Identical Twins or a transporter copy may have the same physical synapse configurations, but the nanosecond they are created, the differing environmental inputs would cause actual neuron firing patterns to diverge.

Even if fictional transporters could "read" velocity and location of electrons, photons and so on, at a precise moment, which physics states is impossible, you would have to have the replica and original in exactly the same external environment anyway.....which is also impossible.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:03 am
by ElectricMonk
Just keep a copy of the transporter information in the buffer and resurrect all those poor unnamed star fleet members who die on every mission.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:30 am
by Gord
ElectricMonk wrote:Just keep a copy of the transporter information in the buffer and resurrect all those poor unnamed star fleet members who die on every mission.

Better yet, make millions of duplicates of your best combat specialists and sent them out to conquer the galaxy.

Oh, wait.... Storm troopers.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:43 pm
by craig4
Cadmusteeth wrote:Twins are genetically similar but they are effectively two different individuals.


Yes but hey have the quality of actually existing and have been studied. The OP could look at real data vice a philosophical exercise.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:06 am
by Nikki Nyx
eafe wrote:I know you said not to bring up the star trek transporter. What happens if person 1 is not destroyed and you end up with 2 people?
This happens.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:08 am
by Nikki Nyx
ElectricMonk wrote:Just keep a copy of the transporter information in the buffer and resurrect all those poor unnamed star fleet members who die on every mission.
Apropos of nothing, Red Shirt Resurrection would make a great band name. :mrgreen:

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:11 am
by eafe
Matthew Ellard wrote:
eafe wrote:You stated that pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain make me the same. Can you go into a more detail? But try to keep it simple.
Identical Twins or a transporter copy may have the same physical synapse configurations, but the nanosecond they are created, the differing environmental inputs would cause actual neuron firing patterns to diverge.

Even if fictional transporters could "read" velocity and location of electrons, photons and so on, at a precise moment, which physics states is impossible, you would have to have the replica and original in exactly the same external environment anyway.....which is also impossible.



Can I just ask a few stupid questions.
My reading comprehension sucks.


//what make me the same are (pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain)

pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain = physical synapse configuration + neuron firing patterns to diverge.

Is the formula correct interpretation correct?

This is probably over simplifying everything but is this the gist or am I wrong?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:37 pm
by Matthew Ellard
eafe wrote: Can I just ask a few stupid questions. My reading comprehension sucks.

what make me the same are (pattern of nerve impulses in a particular brain).
Nope. You cannot copy your exact brain patterns because you cannot measure both the velocity and exact location of all the electrons in your head. (Heisenberg uncertainty principle)

If you could do this, by some form of magic, in nano seconds the copy and your own brain will diverge. also due to quantum mechanics.

This is basic physics.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:04 am
by eafe
Can I ask another stupid questions. Hopefully the last.

Simply put. What makes someone different from an identical twin and still make the person have personal identity overtime?

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:22 am
by Matthew Ellard
eafe wrote:What makes someone different from an identical twin and still make the person have personal identity overtime?


Identical twins share the same genes and that's it. I have already explained why they would think differently, because of physics.

I next suggest to you that unless they are kept in exactly the same environment and the same sensory inputs, they will also diverge. That's standard behavioural psychology.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:16 am
by Poodle
And when Matthew says 'exactly' he means it. Something so basic as looking in the same direction at the same time differentiates the twins. One has a twin on the right and the other has a twin on the left. They now each have different experiences and can no longer be regarded as abolutely identical.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:02 pm
by Matthew Ellard
Poodle wrote:And when Matthew says 'exactly' he means it. Something so basic as looking in the same direction at the same time differentiates the twins. One has a twin on the right and the other has a twin on the left. They now each have different experiences and can no longer be regarded as abolutely identical.


My parents bought those big colour Time life science books in the 1970's. There was a illustration of two kittens in a box environment. One kitten could touch things and was held in a smaller box connected to a mechanism above. The other kitten was in a similar box but could not touch things. The mechanism meant that both kittens saw the same thing but only one could touch things. The experiment was about stimulation and reinforcement.

However the whole illustration was simply bat {!#%@} crazy and I loved it as a kid. Unfortunately I can't find it.

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:17 am
by eafe
What makes me the same. If Genes make me the same then I could replace someone if they had an identical twin. I know it was stated that twins are different because of environmental reasons. But if I narrow it to just genes then that it doesn't work. So what makes me the same overtime? (or personal identity overtime)

Re: Can someone who believes in personal identity overtime prove it is a possibility?

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:01 am
by Matthew Ellard
eafe wrote:What makes me the same. If Genes make me the same then I could replace someone if they had an identical twin. I know it was stated that twins are different because of environmental reasons. But if I narrow it to just genes then that it doesn't work. So what makes me the same overtime? (or personal identity overtime)


You have just ignored hard evidence to say something that makes no sense.

You are not the same as someone, all because you have the same genes (Identical twins) because of physics and because of differing environments creating different behaviours. This was explained above.

As identical twins exist, if your claim had any merit you would be able to find an example, but no examples exist. Therefore any further discussion is a waste of time.


.