It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
You really don't know anything unless Sean Hannity says something on Fox & Friends, right? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I've never seen Fox & Friends, not even once. Honest Injin.

But, enlighten me on something, Matt, if you will. What is the ASIS position now on the UN suspending the sanctions and embargo on North Korea?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:54 am

Tom Palven, one day ago wrote: At least Hannity actually discusses political issues.
Matthew Ellard wrote:You really don't know anything unless Sean Hannity says something on Fox & Friends, right? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven, attempts to lie his way out of copying Hannity's Deep State World Conspiracy claims and wrote:I've never seen Fox & Friends
Sooooooo....Tom. You like to copy Sean Hannity's "Deep State Illuminati" conspiracy claims on our forum, as "he actually discusses politics", while simultaneously saying you have never watched him? :D
Hannity.jpg
Why do you lie so much and spread pro-Trump propaganda? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:01 am

Tom Palven wrote:The US empire, like the British, Soviet, and other empires before, has become morally and fiscally bankrupt, and is losing control throughout the world despite ...
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=28934&p=620467&hil ... re#p620467
Tom Palven wrote:Followed to it's logical conclusion this concept would endorse individual sovereignty and anarchism-- the end of big government and the US Empire.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=12281&p=177655&hil ... re#p177655
Tom Palven wrote: The upside of US bankrupcy is that this empire, like the Roman, British, Russian, and other empires before it, will no longer have hundreds of billions of excess dollars with which to invade foreign countries.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=11682&p=164906&hil ... re#p164906
Tom Palven wrote:My point is that neither zombies nor live people vote for King Abdullah or General Hosni Mubarek, the Empire's greeat (sic) allies, because they are dictators for life, and no one seems to give a damn, even though Egypt gets a large percentage of (USA) Fourth Reich foreign aid, and most of the 9/11 villains were from Saudi Arabia.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=11442&p=160956&hil ... re#p160956
Tom Palven wrote:The Empire is moving in the opposite direction of isolation, adding more brown shirts at the borders and concrete barriers in Washington, DC.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11373&p=159200&hil ... re#p159200
Tom Palven wrote: I hope that Bernie Sanders or one of the Republican warmongers wins, bankruptcy prevails, and the sun sets on another stupid empire.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=26376&p=500743&hil ... re#p500743

Has the evil USA Empire fallen apart yet Tom? You must be very happy Donald Trump is president.

Good luck spreading those Russian talk points.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:08 am

Sooooooooo....Tom?

You are simultaneously claiming that the USA government is the Evil Empire and will soon collapse and you are also claiming the evil "Deep State Illuminati " is undermining the USA government.

Don't these two bull-{!#%@} claims contradict each other?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis

Post by Monster » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:30 am

Matthew Ellard, as far as I know, Sean Hannity has never been on Fox & Friends. F&F has three regular goobers and occasional guests.

http://www.foxnews.com/shows/fox-and-friends.html
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Re: It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 am

Monster wrote:Matthew Ellard, as far as I know, Sean Hannity has never been on Fox & Friends. F&F has three regular goobers and occasional guests.
We don't actually get Fox & Friends or Hannity in Australia. The Australian Murdoch family simply own Fox News in the USA and I read the Australian commentary on what Fox does to sell advertising. The Murdochs also own "left" newspapers.......it's all about maximising dividends. :D

However Tom Palven simply posts here what Hannity says on his show about the "Deep State" trying to get rid of Trump. Tom simultaneously also posts Russian talk points and about the Evil USA Empire, despite
these conspiracies conflicting with each other. That's what I'm teasing him about because he denies it.
:lol:

Of interest, James Murdoch, the son ran music based companies in Australia, through News Ltd. He is very upset about Fox News in the USA's politics. When Rupert sold off Fox Movies last year James lost his position, Rupert's other son, Lachlan continued to run Fox News. That's why Australians knows a lot about Fox News.

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:53 am

Tom Palven wrote:But, enlighten me on something, Matt, if you will. What is the ASIS position now on the UN suspending the sanctions and embargo on North Korea?
You really are a total idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
1) The USA does not represent the United Nations
2) Neither the USA or the United Nations are suspending the economic sanctions
3) I don't work for the Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS) and don't have a clue what they are thinking.
:lol:

"North Korea has celebrated the Trump-Kim summit as a great win for the country, with North Korean state media reporting that the US intends to lift sanctions."


"North Korea will not see any economic sanctions lifted until it has demonstrated "complete denuclearisation", US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has said. Mr Pompeo dismissed a report by North Korean state media that indicated the US would grant concessions to Pyongyang for gradual progress."

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Sooooooooo....Tom?

You are simultaneously claiming that the USA government is the Evil Empire and will soon collapse and you are also claiming the evil "Deep State " is undermining the USA government.

Don't these two bull-{!#%@} claims contradict each other?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you believe that a Military-Industrial Complex exists as General Eisenhower described it in his 1961 Farewell Address?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mi ... &FORM=VIRE
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:You are simultaneously claiming that the USA government is the Evil Empire and will soon collapse and you are also claiming the evil "Deep State Illuminati " is undermining the USA government, which you call the Evil Empire.

Don't these two bull-{!#%@} claims contradict each other?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Running away.jpg
Tom Palven wrote: Do you believe that a Military-Industrial Complex exists as General Eisenhower described it in his 1961 Farewell Address?
No

1) 1961 was 57 years ago.

2) Australia is not the USA and bought French Mirage Fighters, German Leopard I tanks, uses Austrian Steyr assault rifles, British ships etc etc etc based on their functionality in Australian military environments.

3) The 60s Lockheed Japanese scandals were about bribery for corporate gain....like any other bad company does.

4) The Conventional Arms Limitation Treaty of 2007 fixed the maximum number of tanks, APCs etc ending over production causing the folding of five major USA arms manufacturers..

5) New START (Nuclear warhead restriction treaty of 2010) limited the number of nukes ending over production and removed 90% of warheads for the USA and Russian Federation.

6) You are complete bonzo who knows nothing about any of the above and you post ridiculous conspiracy theories that don't even make sense.

In essence Tom, you are out of date, don't know anything and under the delusion that 1961 USA is still important to the rest of the modern world of 2018.
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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Do you believe that a Military-Industrial Complex exists as General Eisenhower described it in his 1961 Farewell Address?
No

1) 1961 was 57 years ago.

Yes, and the power and influence of the MIC/CIA/NSA/Deep State has expanded tremendously in the last 57 years.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 am

Tom Palven wrote:Yes, and the power and influence of the MIC/CIA/NSA/Deep State has expanded tremendously in the last 57 years.
You really are a total idiot. :lol:

Eisenhower made his 1961 "Military Industrial Complex" comment during the post war arms race 57 years ago. The subsequent treaties to limit the number of both nuclear weapons (New Start) and conventional weapons (CFE) have dramatically reduced weapons.

* For example : The Warsaw Pact has reduced its tank numbers from 115,000 tanks to only 13,300 in the modern Russian Federation's military pact. .
* For example : During the cold war the USA had 31,000 nuclear warheads. It now has only 1,550.


You simply didn't know any of this as you are very stupid, ignorant on all issues and prefer to spread ridiculous conspiracies. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There is no such thing as the Secret Deep State Illuminati. You are simply copying Sean Hannity's pro-Trump propaganda from Fox network. Gorgeous claims it is run by Jews to control the world. I assume you think the same.

What makes you a total laughing stock, and an equal idiot to Gorgeous, is that you cannot supply any evidence for any of your conspiracy claims. In fact, your "Evil US Empire" and "Secret Deep State Illuminati" claims, conflict with each other. I assume you agree with Gorgeous that Jews and alien reptile humans run the same secret organisations.

You are so stupid even claim James Clapper runs the Secret Deep State Illuminati even though he is retired and teaches part time at a university.

.

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Yes, and the power and influence of the MIC/CIA/NSA/Deep State has expanded tremendously in the last 57 years.
You really are a total idiot. :lol:

You are so stupid even claim James Clapper runs the Secret Deep State Illuminati even though he is retired and teaches part time at a university.

I asked you a simple question as to whether you believe that a Military-Industrial Complex as described by General Eisenhower exists.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mi ... &FORM=VIRE

And you provide me with a song and a dance worthy of James Clapper and his disinformation specialists, attacking the strawman term "Illuminati," which I have never once used.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:20 am

Tom Palven wrote: I asked you a simple question as to whether you believe that a Military-Industrial Complex as described by General Eisenhower exists.
....and I answered it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You then, as you are a complete idiot, said the military industrial complex was getting more powerful. So I gave you clear evidence that the reduction of the USA's 31,000 nuclear warheads, during the arms race, to only 1550 today was evidence you MIC conspiracy was complete crap.

Tom? You can do basic mathematics, right? Is 1,550 less than 31,000?
Tom palven escaping.jpg
Tom Palven wrote:...the power and influence of the MIC/CIA/NSA/Deep State has expanded tremendously in the last 57 years.
Soooo....the reduction of warheads from 31,000 to 1550 is your evidence the military industrial complex is growing in power, to produce more weapons? :lol:


Are you really that stupid all the time?
:lol:

(PS Can you please stop copying an pasting Fox & Sean Hannity's " Secret Deep State Illuminati" bull-{!#%@} on our forum.)
hannity deep state 6.jpg
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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:14 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I asked you a simple question as to whether you believe that a Military-Industrial Complex as described by General Eisenhower exists.
....and I answered it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You then, as you are a complete idiot, said the military industrial complex was getting more powerful. So I gave you clear evidence that the reduction of the USA's 31,000 nuclear warheads, during the arms race, to only 1550 today was evidence your MIC conspiracy was complete crap.

Tom? You can do basic mathematics, right? Is 1,550 less than 31,000?
Tom palven escaping.jpg

Numbers of nuclear warheads certainly don't tell much of the story, especially when you don't include the megatonnage of the bombs, and I'd like to see where you get the 1,550 figure.

According to the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU (Named for former Supreme Court justice William Brennan, not lying CIA torture-advocate John Brennan), "The US spends nearly $1 trillion annually on national security programs and agencies."
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/0 ... it/104799/

That might sound like a wild exaggeration, but the article explains how they do the math, and with black budgets, who knows what the actual figures are?

In any case secret police spending, part of the Military-Industial Complex budget, certainly isn't what it was in General Eisenhower's day.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:48 am

Tom Palven wrote: .the power and influence of the MIC/CIA/NSA/Deep State has expanded tremendously in the last 57 years.
Debunked on every level.
Tom Palven wrote:Numbers of nuclear warheads certainly don't tell much of the story, especially when you don't include the megatonnage of the bombs, and I'd like to see where you get the 1,550 figure.
1) I have now informed you as to the NEW START treaty reducing nuclear warheads to 1550, three times.
2) I have linked you to the the CFE convention weapons reduction treaty three times.

You refuse to read the evidence as you are a conspiracy nut stuck on Eisenhower's 1961 speech that was before the reduction treaties of SALT 1 (1974) SALT II (1979) START I (1991) and NEW START (2011).

(SALT = Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty)

Your bull-{!#%@} claim that the "military industrial complex" of 1961 is more powerful today is simply bull-{!#%@}. It is because you are ignorant.

(In essence, the introduction of military GPS, better targeting systems and reduction of the variety of delivery platforms to subs and missiles, has allowed for a massive reduction of nuclear missiles. The yield of warheads has also been reduced as you don't need hydrogen bombs to destroy a target as atom bombs can now hit the exact target due to better aiming. )

Tom Palven wrote:"The US spends nearly $1 trillion annually on national security programs and agencies."
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/0 ... it/104799/
The intelligence agencies do not manufacture weapons, you complete idiot. Read your own links. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:27 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:"The US spends nearly $1 trillion annually on national security programs and agencies."
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/0 ... it/104799/
The intelligence agencies do not manufacture weapons, you complete idiot. Read your own links. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I take it then, Matt, that there can never be enough money spent funding the wonders of the MIC/Deep State/Secret Police, and that you agree with Congresswoman Kay Granger and others who say that because of depletion of US weaponry in recent wars that "huge investments in defense spending are long overdue."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 64d0f26644

In rereading The True Believer it's occurred to me that you may be a True Believer a God-like US Deep State.

Hoffer says that:
"It is the true believer's ability to 'shut his eyes and stop his ears' to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy."
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:05 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:The intelligence agencies do not manufacture weapons, you complete idiot. Read your own links. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:I take it then, Matt, that there can never be enough money spent funding the wonders of the MIC/Deep State/Secret Police, and that you agree with Congresswoman Kay Granger and others who say that because of depletion of US weaponry in recent wars that "huge investments in defense spending are long overdue."
No because
1) I never said that....you did, you complete idiot :D
2) I'm an Australian and don't have a clue who Kay Granger, an American, is.
3) There is no such thing as the military industrial complex / Deep State Illuminati /Secret Police.


Tom Palven wrote:In rereading The True Believer it's occurred to me that you may be a True Believer a God-like US Deep State.
As you a borderline mentally retarded, I don't really care what you think. :lol:

However...... I directly showed you evidence that ICBMs, nuclear warheads and conventional weapons have been massively reduced in number, due to the SALT, START and CFM treaties. You ignored that evidence because it made your hilarious "MIC" claims look really really stupid. ......doesn't that make you a true believer according to your own definition? :lol: :lol: :lol:
"It is the true believer's ability to 'shut his eyes and stop his ears' to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy."

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:13 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:The intelligence agencies do not manufacture weapons, you complete idiot. Read your own links. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:I take it then, Matt, that there can never be enough money spent funding the wonders of the MIC/Deep State/Secret Police, and that you agree with Congresswoman Kay Granger and others who say that because of depletion of US weaponry in recent wars that "huge investments in defense spending are long overdue."
No because
1) I never said that....you did, you complete idiot :D
2) I'm an Australian and don't have a clue who Kay Granger, an American, is.
3) There is no such thing as the military industrial complex / Deep State/ Secret Police.

Since you're an Australian, I can't blame you for not knowing who Kay Granger is, and I certainly can't blame you for not knowing who James Clapper and his steering committee cohorts are since the secret police are, of course, largely secret and don't acknowledge who employs them.

At least that's the way it seems to work up here.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:45 am

Tom Palven wrote:Since you're an Australian, I can't blame you for not knowing who Kay Granger is,
...then why did you ask if I agreed with this person, you idiot?

Tom Palven wrote:and I certainly can't blame you for not knowing who James Clapper
I know who James Clapper is as he came to lecture in Australia in 2017 on the potential steps for preventing the end of the US/ANZUS alliance under your hero, Donald Trump. :lol: :lol:

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9-bJJKiL0k[/bbvideo]

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Since you're an Australian, I can't blame you for not knowing who Kay Granger is,
...then why did you ask if I agreed with this person, you idiot?

Tom Palven wrote:and I certainly can't blame you for not knowing who James Clapper
I know who James Clapper is as he came to lecture in Australia in 2017 on the potential steps for preventing the end of the US/ANZUS alliance under your hero, Donald Trump. :lol: :lol:

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9-bJJKiL0k[/bbvideo]
Not to worry.

Maybe you'll get to hear Kay Granger if she goes to Australia to lecture ASIS.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:58 am

Tom Palven wrote:Maybe you'll get to hear Kay Granger if she goes to Australia to lecture ASIS.
How would I know, as I am not an ASIS officer? Did you forget again? :lol:

Senility does terrible things to old people's minds doesn't it?

You think the decrease of the USA's nuclear warheads from 31,000 in 1961, to only 1550 warheads in 2018 is evidence the 1961 "military industrial complex" has increased production.

Bummer you can't do basic mathematics. When do you check into a home?
:D

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Re: It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:36 pm

I'd like to share this podcast from Le Monde diplomatique, "The Remarkable Continuity of the National Security Bureaucracy," with you, Matt.
https://mondediplo.com/2018/07/14glennonpodcast

Once again James Clapper's disinformation is exposed. in another context.
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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:23 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: you don't include the megatonnage of the bombs, and I'd like to see where you get the 1,550 figure.
1) I have now informed you as to the NEW START treaty reducing nuclear warheads to 1550, three times.
2) I have linked you to the the CFE convention weapons reduction treaty three times.


Yeah, Matthew, where do you get that number from?

Time wrote:As of July 8, [2017] the United States has 6,800 warheads, according to data from Hans Kristensen and Robert Norris at the Federation of American scientists. 2,800 of them are retired, 4,000 are stockpiled, and 1,800 are deployed. The total number of U.S. warheads is second only to Russia, which currently has 7,000 of them.


Tsk tsk . . . citing treaties instead of actual counts . . . you've been reading gorgeous's posts for too long.

PS. Those are the numbers they admit to having, not verified by independent observers such as Hans Blix.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:41 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:Tsk tsk . . . citing treaties instead of actual counts . . . you've been reading gorgeous's posts for too long. PS. Those are the numbers they admit to having, not verified by independent observers such as Hans Blix.
There are only 1800 warheads in service. The 4000 are stockpiled and not currently usable.

"On April 8, 2010, Russia and the United States signed the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (New START). The treaty requires both sides to limit the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to no more than 1,550 and fielded delivery platforms to 700.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... -New-START

"Both the United States and Russia met these limits by the February 2018 deadline, and the limits will hold until February 2021."

"Some bombers were converted to conventional-only missions (not accountable under New START), and approximately 60 deployed nuclear-capable bombers have been retained.........New START counting rules allow each bomber to be counted as “one” deployed warhead, even though bombers can carry up to 16-20 nuclear weapons."
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... ceNewSTART

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:Tsk tsk . . . citing treaties instead of actual counts . . . you've been reading gorgeous's posts for too long. PS. Those are the numbers they admit to having, not verified by independent observers such as Hans Blix.
There are only 1800 warheads in service. The 4000 are stockpiled and not currently usable.

"On April 8, 2010, Russia and the United States signed the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (New START). The treaty requires both sides to limit the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to no more than 1,550 and fielded delivery platforms to 700.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... -New-START

"Both the United States and Russia met these limits by the February 2018 deadline, and the limits will hold until February 2021."

"Some bombers were converted to conventional-only missions (not accountable under New START), and approximately 60 deployed nuclear-capable bombers have been retained.........New START counting rules allow each bomber to be counted as “one” deployed warhead, even though bombers can carry up to 16-20 nuclear weapons."
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... ceNewSTART

The nuclear warhead strawman that you've hung your hat on is just another song and dance from you, another red herrring that you've decided to drag through the woods, and is immaterial to the question of whether the US defense/national security budget is getting utterly ridiculous as it approaches one trillion dollars per year or whether huge increases are long overdue as Kay Granger asserts.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom's New Stupid Conspiracy Theory

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:49 am

Tom Palven wrote: The nuclear warhead strawman that you've hung your hat on is just another song and dance from you,
No Tom. It is hard evidence you are an idiot. You claim the 1961 military industrial complex has increased it's power. In reality, nuclear warheads have decreased from 31,000 in 1961, to 1550 in 2018.

Soooooo....Tom. Is 1,550 warheads in 2018 a larger number than 31,000 warheads in 1961. Think really hard.....

Tom Palven wrote: the US defense/national security budget is getting utterly ridiculous as it approaches one trillion dollars per year
Ever heard of inflation? (probably not)

Tom. Is the USA's military budget reducing as a percentage of GDP, since 1961 or increasing?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:04 am

The increase in discretionary military spending from 2017 to 2018
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

The 2015 figures compiled by the Brennan Center for justice showed the actual military/security spending was close to one trillion dollars.

The total defense budget for 1961 was about 45 billion dollars:
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/content/? ... m_id=19014
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:07 am

Tom Palven wrote:The increase in discretionary military spending from 2017 to 2018
1961 was when you claimed the military industrial complex came into power and increased production. 2017 is simply when your hero Trump was in and increased spending until he gets chucked out.

Are you claiming your hero Trump runs the military industrial complex?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now stop running away and answer my direct questions
1) Do you know what inflation is?
2) Has the USA's percentage of GDP spent on the military increased or decreased since 1961?


Tom Palven wrote:The total defense budget for 1961 was about 45 billion dollars:
Sooooo... if the USA's GDP was 563 billion in 1961
https://countryeconomy.com/gdp/usa?year=1961
and it spent 45 Billion in 1961

that's 8% of GDP in 1961..........what is it today Tom? It's 3.1% you complete idiot. :lol: :lol: :lol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... penditures

Do you agree that the USA's military spending has decreased from 8% of GDP in 1961 to 3.1% of GDP in 2018? Is that an increase or a decrease, Tom?

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More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:55 am

Tom Palven wrote:The total defense budget for 1961 was about 45 billion dollars:
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/content/? ... m_id=19014
Did you actually read your link? It is fascinating. It is Eisenhower's own words on the 1961 budget for the USA. The man is an economist. I like his words on page 23 when he cancels new weapon system production as ICBMs and sub based ICBMs are coming on line and becoming reliable. "Thus, the need for the B-70 as a strategic weapon system is doubtful."

Eisenhower was obviously a very sensible human and openly winding back production.

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:47 am

So Tom. Let me ask you again. If the USA's military expenditure goes from 8% of GDP in 1961 to 3.1 % of GDP in 2018..... does that indicate the 1961 military industrial complex is growing at the same rate as overall GDP or shrinking?

(Tom Palven quickly opens the last mathematics book he had at school, and looks at the pictures.)
Tom 8.jpg
Tom 3.jpg
If this question is too complex for you Tom, let me know........ :lol:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:So Tom. Let me ask you again. If the USA's military expenditure goes from 8% of GDP in 1961 to 3.1 % of GDP in 2018..... does that indicate the 1961 military industrial complex is growing at the same rate as overall GDP or shrinking?
What you are missing is that the annual trillion dollar expenditure on the MIC/security complex is (as is most of the rest of the bureaucracy) now counted as part of US GDP.

But, I'm not putting words in your mouth, am I? when I say that you agree with Congressperson Kay Granger that despite the US military budget being larger than those of the next eight countires combined...
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ons-combi/

... because of the depletion of US weaponry in recent wars "huge investments in defense spending are long overdue."
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:57 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:So Tom. Let me ask you again. If the USA's military expenditure goes from 8% of GDP in 1961 to 3.1 % of GDP in 2018..... does that indicate the 1961 military industrial complex is growing at the same rate as overall GDP or shrinking?
Answer the question Tom....unless you are too frightened to admit you didn't actually know. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:What you are missing .........
I'm not missing anything Tom.
I had to inform you about the SALT and START nuclear reduction treaties.
I had to inform you about the CFM conventional forces reduction treaties
I had to inform you about the halving of the percentage of GDP that the USA spends on weapons.
I had to inform you of the current low number of nuclear warheads.


In essence, you claim to be "anti war", without knowing or doing anything, other than spamming forums, while real normal people are actually getting rid of weapons. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You should self reflect about what a waste you entire life is, and let real people get on with making the world better through steady mutual disarmament.

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:So Tom. Let me ask you again. If the USA's military expenditure goes from 8% of GDP in 1961 to 3.1 % of GDP in 2018..... does that indicate the 1961 military industrial complex is growing at the same rate as overall GDP or shrinking?
Answer the question Tom....unless you are too frightened to admit you didn't actually know. :lol: :lol: :lol:

To compare the current alleged GDP with the GNP of 1961 is to compare apples and oranges. Today's alleged GDP includes the salaries of bureaucrats as income. The expenditures of the nonproductive agencies such as the NSA, the Dept. of Education, and the Dept. of Energy, as well as the spending of counterproductive regulatory agencies, are NOW counted as PRODUCTIVITY, in the same category as beef, copy paper, and washing machines.

Ten percent of X isn't necessarily smaller than 20% of Y.

The salient point is that the US NOW spends more money on "defense" than the next eight countries combined.

So, I'll ask you one last time, do you agree with Kay Granger that "huge investments in defense spending are long overdue" or not?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:08 am

Tom Palven wrote:To compare the current alleged GDP with the GDP of 1961 is to compare apples and oranges.
You complete idiot. You are the person saying Eisenhower warned that a military industrial complex may exist in 1961. Are you saying we should ignore that as it was so long ago? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:Ten percent of X isn't necessarily smaller than 20% of Y.
You were home schooled, remember and can't do basic mathematics. :lol:

If the military spend was 8% of GDP in 1961 and is now only 3.1% of GDP in 2018, that means military expenditure is not even growing half as much as the general USA economy. That means your claim the "1961" MIC is increasing production is complete crap.

Poor Poor "useless" Tom Palven
I know why you are so angry, upset and frustrated. You wasted your entire life pretending to be a pseudo anarchist anti-war protester. Yet you were totally unaware that normal real people had established real treaties like START, SALT and CFM to reduce weapon production and had succeeded. While you were wasting time spamming your russian talk points on forums, real people were getting the job done.
:lol: :lol:


Tom. You have early dementia
Tom Palven wrote:So, I'll ask you one last time, do you agree with Kay Granger that "huge investments in defense spending are long overdue" or not?
You forgot that you have already asked me this twice before and I had to twice remind you I am an Australian and I don't have a clue who Kay Granger, an American, is. Australia is not a USA state. You keep forgetting.

Have you asked your general practitioner to give you an early Alzheimer assessment?
:lol: :lol:

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Ten percent of X isn't necessarily smaller than 20% of Y.
You were home schooled, remember and can't do basic mathematics. :lol:
I went to elementary school, junior high, and high school in Bloomfield, NJ and a simple call there should prove it so you won't have to buy the '63 yearbook.

Why do you come up with this crap and the Illuminati crap?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:44 am

Tom Palven wrote: I went to elementary school, junior high, and high school in Bloomfield, NJ and a simple call there should prove it so you won't have to buy the '63 yearbook.
Thanks for confirming your age and lack of university or college education. You can see why I suggest you have early dementia.
Tom Palven wrote:Why do you come up with this crap and the Illuminati crap?
...because it is the crap you and your fellow Trump fans are spamming on the forum.

There is no difference between your "Deep State Illuminati" conspiracy and Gorgeous's "Alien-reptile Illuminati" and the Neo-nazi holocaust denier's "Jewish Rothschild Illuminati" conspiracy.
1) They are all pretend secret organisations that secretly control the world
2) None of you can name any members or provide any evidence they exist
3) None of you can explain how they operate, communicate or set their agenda's


Evidence of Tom's extreme idiocy
What makes your insane "Military Industrial Complex" conspiracy, remarkably stupid, it that the arms manufacturers are in competition with each other under the normal rules of capitalism. You are so stupid you are claiming Northdrop secretly conspired with Grumman to increase production of Northrop's aircraft while Grumman went under. You are then claiming Northrop conspired with Lockheed so that Lockheed would produce the F-35 so Northrop would go out of business. This makes no sense whatsoever!!! Can you see why everyone thinks you are an idiot? :lol: :lol:

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I went to elementary school, junior high, and high school in Bloomfield, NJ and a simple call there should prove it so you won't have to buy the '63 yearbook.
Thanks for confirming your age and lack of university or college education. You can see why I suggest you have early dementia.

1. I graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, NY in 1967 and have continued to do lots of varied post-grad studies at various places since then.

2. Again, I have never mentioned "Deep State Illuminati," nor have I ever once mentioned Northrop-Grumman or Lockheed, so why this disinformation?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:51 am

Tom Palven wrote: I graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, NY in 1967 and have continued to do lots of varied post-grad studies at various places since then.
Bull-{!#%@}. You can't spell basic words like education and can't string coherent sentences together. What did you pretend you studied? "Conspiracy theories" :lol: :lol:

(...and don't pretend, as you did on another forum, you studied economics. I have studied economics and will ask you economics questions.....) :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote: Again, I have never mentioned "Deep State Illuminati,"
You have endlessly spammed the forum with you and Sean Hannity's "Deep State" conspiracy theory. When I correctly pointed out this was the same conspiracy theory as the "Jewish World domination Illuminati" and the "Alien-Reptile Illuminati" conspiracy theory, you ran away. None of these Illuminati conspiracy theories exist or have any evidence they exist. Do you have one iota of evidence for your "Deep State Illuminati" conspiracy theory?
It is just another secret Illuminati theory.
:lol: :lol:


Tom's "Military Industrial Complex" Conspiracy Theory / Debunk
Tom Palven wrote:Nor have I ever once mentioned Northrop-Grumman or Lockheed, so why this disinformation?
No. I gave you real world examples because you never looked and you don't understand basic economics. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You claim there is a secret "cabal" of arms manufacturers, from the 1960s, who trick the government into spending more and more on weaponry. You didn't provide any evidence for this hilarious claim.

I then gave you evidence that the military expenditure of the US government has more than halved to only 3.1% of GDP in 2018 compared to 1960s. You ran away as you had no counter evidence.

I then gave you clear evidence that arms manufacturers are in competition with each other, under normal economic theory and I gave you the classic example of Northrop winning a weapons contract so Grumman, which didn't win a contract failed, followed by Northrop failing, when Lockheed won the next arms contract for the F-35.

Your insane conspiracy theory is that these arms manufacturers conspired together .....so two of them would go broke? You simply don't understand basic economics and you never provide evidence for your hilarious conspiracy claims. :lol: :lol:

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I graduated from Cornell University, Ithaca, NY in 1967 and have continued to do lots of varied post-grad studies at various places since then.
Bull-{!#%@}. You can't spell basic words like education and can't string coherent sentences together. What did you pretend you studied? "Conspiracy theories" :lol: :lol:
You seem more than willing and able to do research, so check it out instead of just blathering.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: More insane Conspiracies from Tom Palven

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:39 am

Tom Palven wrote:You seem more than willing and able to do research, so check it out instead of just blathering.
No Tom. You are a person with a low to mid IQ, who can't formulate their own arguments. If you cant articulate your own argument you can't ask me to do it for you. I just think you are stupid.and leave it at that. :lol:

I would enjoy reading your and Sean Hannity's pro-Trump Deep State conspiracy but you can't set it out as you as simply an idiot. :lol: