Does the media love mass shooting?

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:31 pm

((Can you tell what I'm doing?)) Rick Santorum on Sundays "State of the Union" re the Florida Shooting: "Certainly gun control is a debate we need to have...."But another debate we need to have is something that is also a common issue is the fact that these kids come from broken homes without Dads and that is not something we are talking about and that is the commonality." Response: the Florida shooters dad had died, not a broken home. Santorum: "over 75% of school shooters do not have a Dad at home...this is a serious issue we are not talking about"

Gee........seems to me Smoke Blowers all want to talk about anything except the issue. I hate despise Rick Santorum...although he runs a close second to Ryan. Smoke Blowers without shame. Any attention shows their positions to be pure non-sense. Lets do nothing re guns and focus on getting Dads more involved? How does that work the problem if 75% of kiddies don't have a Dad at home? ........... hello??????

Why don't these political leaders understand its all about wealth inequality?
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Aztexan » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:44 pm

Because they're all wealthy
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Coveny wrote: My issue is that we are focusing on guns (a symptom) rather than wealth inequality (the problem) because that is what the media feeds the America people when it does not effect that many people. (to use a word I believe you used in the Musk debate it's negligible)
Please make your position as clear as possible because what you advocate for here makes no sense at all. If there is a mass shooting in Florida, its Wealth Inequality that should be discussed. When there is a short supply of flu vaccines, its Wealth Inequality that should be discussed. When there is too much lead in the drinking water, its Wealth Inequality that should be discussed.....and so on. Is this your position? No other subject is relevant to any other issue until Wealth Inequality is dealt with? aka: ONLY the most important challenge to society can be spoken about because with 320Million people, we don't have the ability to talk about multiple issues?

Do you accept or reject that "the number of people affected by guns" is more than the number of people killed by them?
Coveny wrote: Again don't blow smoke. Compare Homicide to homicide, and include burglary and rape.
Ummm....let's talk about smoke. If you want to compare Homicide to homicide shouldn't you stick to homicides? What else is "include burglary and rape" except smoke???? Its not just smoke you create when you jump around as you do as shown in your quote even within a single short sentence.

Its fun how we think. Certain meme's get lodged in and refuse to leave. "What do you think, and how do you change your mind?" Endlessly fascinating. Debaters should be among the world's best at changing their minds....or is the skill set seen as something external?

Amusing.
No that's not my position stop "jumping around". This is about mass murder and how it should be dealt with not drinking water, or vaccines. What part of it makes "no sense" to you? I present three things that lead to mass murder, and all three of those things can be traced back to wealth inequality. I have shown that homicide will happen with or without guns. I have shown that the way the media is handling mass murder encourages mass murder. I have covered all fronts, so again which part of that makes no sense to you?

No I shouldn't stick to homicide because perps are more likely to steal and rape if there is no fear of being killed because you can safely assume your victim is unarmed. And before you dismiss that as "not relevant" just make sure you understand that the "fear of guns" is the exact same thing that the media is feeding off of, so all that stuff of "if it bleeds, it leads" would also become invalid if you want to argue the deter factor of victims with guns should be dismissed.

I change my mind fairly regularly, the trait has nothing to do with debating though. Take Craig Lane as an example, he's one of the best debaters I've seen, and he's still a theist... I'd have to look it up, but there is this thing where the smarter you are the harder it becomes to change your mind because it's easier for you to make excuses or something. (I don't remember what it was called, and I'm likely not stating it correctly)
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:((Can you tell what I'm doing?)) Rick Santorum on Sundays "State of the Union" re the Florida Shooting: "Certainly gun control is a debate we need to have...."But another debate we need to have is something that is also a common issue is the fact that these kids come from broken homes without Dads and that is not something we are talking about and that is the commonality." Response: the Florida shooters dad had died, not a broken home. Santorum: "over 75% of school shooters do not have a Dad at home...this is a serious issue we are not talking about"

Gee........seems to me Smoke Blowers all want to talk about anything except the issue. I hate despise Rick Santorum...although he runs a close second to Ryan. Smoke Blowers without shame. Any attention shows their positions to be pure non-sense. Lets do nothing re guns and focus on getting Dads more involved? How does that work the problem if 75% of kiddies don't have a Dad at home? ........... hello??????

Why don't these political leaders understand its all about wealth inequality?
Speaking of not being open to changing your mind.

Oh and he's talking about one of the aspects of wealth inequality.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:30 pm

Coveny wrote:This is about mass murder and how it should be dealt with ......
How should mass murder be dealt with? Your answer so far has been when there is a mass murder, we should connect it to wealth inequality..............but then what?
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:33 pm

Coveny: Do you accept or reject that "the number of people affected by guns" is more than the number of people killed by them?
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Coveny wrote:This is about mass murder and how it should be dealt with ......
How should mass murder be dealt with? Your answer so far has been when there is a mass murder, we should connect it to wealth inequality..............but then what?
I listed three points that need to be improved to prevent/lower the instances of mass murder several times. I have already stated "then what".
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Coveny: Do you accept or reject that "the number of people affected by guns" is more than the number of people killed by them?
Accept.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:08 am

Coveny wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Coveny wrote:This is about mass murder and how it should be dealt with ......
How should mass murder be dealt with? Your answer so far has been when there is a mass murder, we should connect it to wealth inequality..............but then what?
I listed three points that need to be improved to prevent/lower the instances of mass murder several times. I have already stated "then what".
My casual read and memory of this thread did not give me that connection. I have seen you mention rape and burglary and crime?==>IIRC. This struck me as muddled thinking/vague definitions/SMOKE, etc but I could be wrong as I did increase my skim in your exchange with Matthew. But you claim a causal chain/solution is made, and I believe you. So......lets see if I can find it?

.......................................................Well, your op does talk about tax cuts, education system, healthcare, living wage, homeless veterans, bright futures for the kiddies.

That makes NO CONNECTION. One bad thing is not CAUSED BY other bad things just because they are both bad.

Do I need to guess further or is that close enough?

Causation: The act of causing something to happen //// In general, there are two forms of "real" causation: direct and proximate. At the very best, Wealth Inequality is only a proximate cause....and very far removed. How does feeding a homeless Vet prevent a mass shooting? Will you claim that it does??? Directly or Proximately????

I was thinking of Trumps recent budget and the crowing going on about how the Dumbo's are cutting their own throats by saying that 1 to 2 thousand bucks in tax cuts a year is not important to average good folks. I think that is right. The $ in the pocket is recognized as such. The follow on of cut social programs is not connected at all. So...in the Coveny Wealth Inequality is the most relevant source/cause of gun violence.....intentionally or not, is Trumps tax cut a stimulus for Gun Violence/Mass Shootings...or proximate enough to not be cast is such light?

IOW===what do you specifically DO re Wealth Inequality to affect the Gun Violence in America?? ---->Knock, Knock.....
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:13 am

Coveny wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Coveny: Do you accept or reject that "the number of people affected by guns" is more than the number of people killed by them?
Accept.
Only common sense right? So....why talk about the number of those who die in mass shootings/murder/suicide as "the measure" to rank order the importance of mass shootings compared to Wealth Inequality?

Assuming you recognize a faulty assumption, or more, was made here, any revision to your position? You know: new information/recognition leading to new ideas/changed position????

I put it to you that EVERYBODY in America is "affected" by gun violence. Not everyone is affected by Wealth Inequality...a large minority benefit from it. Not so with gun violence.

Think it through............
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Coveny wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Coveny wrote:This is about mass murder and how it should be dealt with ......
How should mass murder be dealt with? Your answer so far has been when there is a mass murder, we should connect it to wealth inequality..............but then what?
I listed three points that need to be improved to prevent/lower the instances of mass murder several times. I have already stated "then what".
My casual read and memory of this thread did not give me that connection. I have seen you mention rape and burglary and crime?==>IIRC. This struck me as muddled thinking/vague definitions/SMOKE, etc but I could be wrong as I did increase my skim in your exchange with Matthew. But you claim a causal chain/solution is made, and I believe you. So......lets see if I can find it?

.......................................................Well, your op does talk about tax cuts, education system, healthcare, living wage, homeless veterans, bright futures for the kiddies.

That makes NO CONNECTION. One bad thing is not CAUSED BY other bad things just because they are both bad.

Do I need to guess further or is that close enough?

Causation: The act of causing something to happen //// In general, there are two forms of "real" causation: direct and proximate. At the very best, Wealth Inequality is only a proximate cause....and very far removed. How does feeding a homeless Vet prevent a mass shooting? Will you claim that it does??? Directly or Proximately????

I was thinking of Trumps recent budget and the crowing going on about how the Dumbo's are cutting their own throats by saying that 1 to 2 thousand bucks in tax cuts a year is not important to average good folks. I think that is right. The $ in the pocket is recognized as such. The follow on of cut social programs is not connected at all. So...in the Coveny Wealth Inequality is the most relevant source/cause of gun violence.....intentionally or not, is Trumps tax cut a stimulus for Gun Violence/Mass Shootings...or proximate enough to not be cast is such light?

IOW===what do you specifically DO re Wealth Inequality to affect the Gun Violence in America?? ---->Knock, Knock.....
I'll clear it up for you. (From the OP)
1) Make it so our education system is funded so we can be more competitive with other countries in our education.
2) Make it so our health care is funded so the families don’t stress about getting the treatment they need.
3) Make it so that both parents don’t have to work two jobs just to afford to pay the bills and have the money needed for their children.

You want to play the correlation vs causation game cool. Prove something... anything causes mass murder. (remember you have to include all the ways mass murder is committed not just GUNS!!! GUNS!!! GUNS!!!) This is a discussion of the cause of something that an attempt to read people's minds, there is no way to prove causation obviously. The discussion is about what I believe the cause is, why I believe it's the cause, and how I have shown supporting data on my claim. If you have a better answer please feel free to present it, but again remember it has to include more than you pet hate for/fear of guns...
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:23 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Coveny wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Coveny: Do you accept or reject that "the number of people affected by guns" is more than the number of people killed by them?
Accept.
Only common sense right? So....why talk about the number of those who die in mass shootings/murder/suicide as "the measure" to rank order the importance of mass shootings compared to Wealth Inequality?

Assuming you recognize a faulty assumption, or more, was made here, any revision to your position? You know: new information/recognition leading to new ideas/changed position????

I put it to you that EVERYBODY in America is "affected" by gun violence. Not everyone is affected by Wealth Inequality...a large minority benefit from it. Not so with gun violence.

Think it through............
Oh wow. Seriously? I'm not "affected" by "gun" violence(I see it no different than any other violence committed by humans and don't make any distinction on it), but I would LOVE to hear someone ... anyone in this country who isn't affected by wealth inequality. I mean seriously here I'm open to hypotheticals as well, just give me a situation that is not affected by wealth inequality, pick your poison. <grabs popcorn>
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:55 am

Coveny wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: IOW===what do you specifically DO re Wealth Inequality to affect the Gun Violence in America?? ---->Knock, Knock.....
I'll clear it up for you. (From the OP)
1) Make it so our education system is funded so we can be more competitive with other countries in our education
Again.........you don't even try to make the connection between more competitive education and gun violence/mass shootings/crime in general?

xxxxx
Coveny wrote: You want to play the correlation vs causation game cool.
No, that is the game YOU are playing ((Probably not playing...... just not appreciating the difference?)) I'm playing the direct vs proximate causation game. Not the same thing at all. IOW, as I won't again reference your need to Make the Dictionary Your Friend, I agree that Wealth Inequality is a cause of gun violence. It just is not as direct as gun availability. This has NOTHING to do with correlations. I hope you can tell the difference between relevant and irrelevant...but that light at the end of the tunnel IS dimming. AKA: if you want to affect the outcome of some issue...... the closer to the DIRECT cause you put your resources, the more DIRECTLY that problem will be addressed. This is common sense. You only react to common sense when it is isolated...........and thats not all bad. Too many can't do it even then.

Coveny wrote: Prove something... anything causes mass murder. (remember you have to include all the ways mass murder is committed not just GUNS!!! GUNS!!! GUNS!!!)
Wut????? After ANOTHER mass shooting by guns, guns, guns, we can't talk about guns, we have to talk about anything that causes mass murder? Where does that rule come from? Let's build the Comedy (Coveny) Pyramid one block at a time. First guns, then knives, then baseball bats, then Gas, then pressure cookers. Shirley once we isolate the medias misdirection from Wealth Inequality on one issue, we will have a road map to connect Wealth Inequality to all the other issues? that pressure cooker used as a bomb is better used to cook a meal for a hungry vet....but how we gonna do that??? Again: bad does not cause bad just because it is bad. YOU MAKE NO CONNECTION. You require us to assume the 15 degrees of separation and be patient with the 20 years it would take for any change to have influence.

Coveny wrote: This is a discussion of the cause of something that an attempt to read people's minds, there is no way to prove causation obviously. The discussion is about what I believe the cause is, why I believe it's the cause, and how I have shown supporting data on my claim.
You have not shown any data. Just made an argument unconnected to relevantly proximate cause and effect. I haven't seen anyone talk about "reading people's minds." The Why did they do it re any action can always be informative...but crime prevention is most often about removing a "how" they did it from the equation. The How is more proximate, the Why is too remote...... like Wealth Inequality. Its fine to discuss: but NOW, what are we going to do to reduce/eliminate mass shootings. Mass baseball bat attacks in their own good time.

Coveny wrote: If you have a better answer please feel free to present it, but again remember it has to include more than you pet hate for/fear of guns...
OK: Generally Outlaw all guns, exceptions to be worked on. As you want a smoke screen of other issues to cloud what the Florida Shooting is all about: also outlaw all home made bombs placed into pressure cookers. Also: outlaw the home production and storage of Nerve Gas. Also: outlaw buying sacks and sacks of fertilizer if you don't own a farm (Already done I think?===silly they didn't work on Wealth Inequality????) Also: outlaw overly tinted car windows. also: outlaw face masks when taking drivers license pictures................ and so on. How much FOG do you demand...............when the issue is Guns, guns, and more guns. Ironic you would overuse Guns reflecting the very issue...........

.................... but I dither.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:07 am

Coveny wrote: Oh wow. Seriously? I'm not "affected" by "gun" violence
O'Reilly??? Do you or family members or friends or friends of friends never leave the house? Any family, friend, friend of a friend commiserate with you over the Florida School/Nightclub shootings? Ever not go down a street, stay at a club too late........nothing? Your statement is not credible........or if true, just revealing a lack of insight, recognition, memory......
Coveny wrote: I see it no different than any other violence committed by humans
Consider that statement.... and say it one more time? To the degree this is true (which I totally don't believe) this would go only to your muddled and objectively silly position.
Coveny wrote: but I would LOVE to hear someone ... anyone in this country who isn't affected by wealth inequality.
Yes, yes....of course. Wealth Inequality is just like daylight savings. Didn't you pick up on that? In context....I did apply a filter that as with all things (even guns, guns, and more guns) there are pros and cons, there are people who benefit and those who are hurt. Of course there are people who benefit from Wealth Inequality besides the 1% who have all the wealth: those who toady up to the Wealthy and make a fine living thereby. Pizza Delivery Drivers for instance. (Coveny Alert: that is a joke. Can you imagine other service providers not existing without the insanely rich?) Is context irrelevant to you Coveny?)

Popcorn. I do enjoy a bowl now and then...always from a plastic bag. The Orville Redenbacker family with its line of "Gourmet Kernel Free Popcorn" certainly benefit from getting rich by providing this upscale product to those who can afford it. Lots of people benefit from Wealth Inequality. Pop....pop.....
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:29 am

Follow my own advice/mantra, I looked up proximate cause:
In the law, a proximate cause is an event sufficiently related to an injury that the courts deem the event to be the cause of that injury. There are two types of causation in the law: cause-in-fact, and proximate (or legal) cause. ... The formal Latin term for "but for" (cause-in-fact) causation, is sine qua non causation.
Proximate cause - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_cause
I said "direct cause" vs proximate. Interesting the definition characterizes causation as "in fact" vs "legal." I think my use is close enough but always helpful to touch base. I was and will use proximate cause to mean NOT the cause in fact but merely one of the actions that led up to the event. The farther removed from the cause-in-fact you get.........the more SMOKE you have generated.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.
Well you are having fun I can see.

You have proven no DIRECT cause for mass murder (nor can you) yet you expect me to achieve that nirvana fallacy.

Done playing the semantics games you want to play. If getting killed by a knife makes you happy because GUN deaths are down knock yourself out.

"You only react to common sense when it is isolated...........and thats not all bad" I guess you've devolved into insults at this point.

Didn't say we couldn't talk about guns... just that you had to include the OTHER mass murder means. (I'm the one who has trouble with common sense? Really?

I require nothing of the sort, there is a connection. (you even admitted to it in the beginning of the post but screw facts right?)

No data... ROFL Ok man this post has no links from me, no research from me, no nothing. Seriously man if you are going to make stuff up at least make stuff up that isn't easily proven ... as you making stuff up.

Back to saying "mass shootings" because you are cool with mass murder so long as it doesn't involve GUNS, and I'm not. So we'll just have to agree to disagree mkay?

You can still easily buy enough fertilizer if you go to separate stores if you don't want to get caught, but if you are a suicide bomber it doesn't matter because all the do is report you... and still let you buy the fertilizer. Airplanes... no comment from you I guess 9/11 wasn't a big deal. Cults drinking kool aid... not a big deal either I guess. Cars/buses mass murder... no problem. And then we have knives which are killing so many people in the U.K. they have the "Turn in a knife, save a life" which you aren't addressing either. So like I said provide a reasonable solution to mass MURDER... not just mass shootings.... mass MURDER.

Yes my family and friends leave the house, are you so arrogant that you believe getting rid of guns is going to prevent them from ever seeing violence? I mean seriously man you got some bias going on there. Getting rid of guns doesn't stop violence it just changes how it happens, and it generally increases other crime like burglary and rape, but hey no mass SHOOTINGS, I mean they are still alive after burglary and rape right... so no big deal.

No context isn't irrelevant to me any more than you dodging and "joking" when asked to support you BS statements. Everyone is affected by wealth inequality in this country, and everyone is affected by violence in this country, but not everyone is affected by GUN violence in this country.

The law doesn't care what motivates the mass murderer, which is what this topic is about please stop with the red herrings...
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:01 am

Coveny: are you for much greater restrictions on gun ownership or something else?
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Coveny: are you for much greater restrictions on gun ownership or something else?
Not that it's the topic of this post, but I'm for background check (and forcing states to report to the FBI) and proof of ID. As far as "greater restrictions" the only one I support is a "practical test" to prove that you can hit what you are aiming at. But I would lose the current bans on fully automatic and silencers if it were up to me.

What I am "for" that is in reference to this post is for the media not to say the shooters names, not to show the shooters face, not to make the shooter famous in any way shape or form. I'm for the media calling out the rich elite and politicians who are screwing this country over for personal gain. Stopping the wars overseas that's killing 100s of thousands people and thousands of children a year and spend all that money on fixing our abysmal education system, universal healthcare, and taxing the {!#%@} out of the ruling elite so that 99% of the people have the money they need to retire comfortable, to spend time with their children rather than having to have a second job, can afford to get mental health for themselves and their children, and have time to create art, and culture, and learn to stop fighting against each other for the meager crumble the rich miss. That's what I'm "for".
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:07 pm

Coveny: well, we mostly agree on what we are for. Makes me wonder what the import of our disagreement really is? I have an answer that is fairly implied by what is posted above...... of course, its bifurcated, nothing being easy.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Coveny: well, we mostly agree on what we are for. Makes me wonder what the import of our disagreement really is? I have an answer that is fairly implied by what is posted above...... of course, its bifurcated, nothing being easy.
My assessment of our disagreement: You feel like getting rid of guns will solve murder (mass or otherwise). I feel like getting rid of guns only changes the method the murder symptom presents itself (so they kill with knives, vehicles, bomb, etc) of the larger wealth inequality problem.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:23 pm

Thanks Coveny, thats only "one" of our disagreements. It is almost nice that you aren't using the brain dead arguments so far. Eg: guns don't kill people etc. If you are going to make up a position for me, could you be more than retarded? Getting rid of guns will solve murder by guns. One of the better pro gun arguments is very individualized: "I have the training and gun expertise that makes the general statistics not applicable to me. With this training, I am in fact better able to defend myself and loved ones. I do not want this taken away from me." I make that argument when it comes to defending myself against knives, vehicles, bombs, etc. I have more of an advantage and I don't like losing it to any dipshit with a gun. Note the parallel construction of the two positions.

You have not been as express as I think warranted: do you think wealth inequality is a more important problem than the gun problem, or do you think WI "leads to" more murders by guns? You provide more hints your answer is the latter but calling WI "larger" is just too vague. If so...how "proximate" to direct causation is it? IE: and what you have NOT done so far is actually making the CONNECTION between lowering gun violence by programs that affect WI. I don't think there is "data" enough to say that if WI was decreased by 10% that that would result in a decrease of murders by guns by X%. Is that even a valid desired relationship in your mind or do you think it only appropriate as a general relationship at this point in time? What do you think is the time lag between a measurable shift in the WI with the effect it would have on murder by gun data? Are these even fair questions WHEN the murder by gun rate is MULTI-FACTORIAL.......LOTS OF VARIABLES. You argue as if there was only one.

A basic error.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Coveny, thats only "one" of our disagreements. It is almost nice that you aren't using the brain dead arguments so far. Eg: guns don't kill people etc. If you are going to make up a position for me, could you be more than retarded? Getting rid of guns will solve murder by guns. One of the better pro gun arguments is very individualized: "I have the training and gun expertise that makes the general statistics not applicable to me. With this training, I am in fact better able to defend myself and loved ones. I do not want this taken away from me." I make that argument when it comes to defending myself against knives, vehicles, bombs, etc. I have more of an advantage and I don't like losing it to any dipshit with a gun. Note the parallel construction of the two positions.

You have not been as express as I think warranted: do you think wealth inequality is a more important problem than the gun problem, or do you think WI "leads to" more murders by guns? You provide more hints your answer is the latter but calling WI "larger" is just too vague. If so...how "proximate" to direct causation is it? IE: and what you have NOT done so far is actually making the CONNECTION between lowering gun violence by programs that affect WI. I don't think there is "data" enough to say that if WI was decreased by 10% that that would result in a decrease of murders by guns by X%. Is that even a valid desired relationship in your mind or do you think it only appropriate as a general relationship at this point in time? What do you think is the time lag between a measurable shift in the WI with the effect it would have on murder by gun data? Are these even fair questions WHEN the murder by gun rate is MULTI-FACTORIAL.......LOTS OF VARIABLES. You argue as if there was only one.

A basic error.
As someone who's raised a mentally retarded son I've always found the mis-use of the word retard to call someone stupid offensive, those words are not synonyms. Given the amount of flake you have given me about how I need to learn the dictionary I find it ironic that you missed used the word looking down at me from your high and mighty pedestal.

So your anecdotal evidences is that you have training and expertise in knives, bombs, airplanes that gives you a better ability to defend yourself from those forms of violence, and the general statistics are not applicable to you. You'll of course understand I don't believe a word of that right? I mean you are welcome to try to prove how you are better equipped to protect yourself from a airplane than the general population, but don't expect me to believe you just because you say you are superman and your kryptonite is bullets. Secondly even if I did accept your ludicrous assertion, it really doesn't matter this isn't a discussing about you or me, it's a discussion about 300+ million people, so you being better or worse has no bearing on the discussion, and it's yet another red herring.

I have stated that it's not possible to make a direct connection between murder and motivation because it's too complex, and challenged you to do the same with those guns you hate so much... you of course dropped that argument because you couldn't prove it, and then asked me a question on what I think our disagreement is... then get mad when I answer you. Hey man if you someone to lie to you, it would be best that you talk to someone else, I'm not here to give you the answers you want to hear.

Guns are just a tool, if you take away that tool humans are smart enough to find another tool to accomplish mass murder with. While it may sound good in theory to bubble wrap the world, reality doesn't work that way when throw other people into the mix, there's always at least one in the crowd who'll pop your bubbles.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:05 pm

Why do you think I'm so "against" you Coveny? You have totally personalized what was EMPHASIZED as just a parallel construction. And.........((I more a memory than a brag....)) I do have years of training in martial arts gained before I had 2000 hours in jet aircraft....not that I ever mentioned defense against aircraft which doesn't make good sense, but I assume Pilot In Command hours might help in some way such as knowing that a bullet hole on its own will no depressurize a plane? If you will go with the colloquial of the media loving mass shootings, you should not peep at all with reference to the debating skills of others.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:15 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Why do you think I'm so "against" you Coveny? You have totally personalized what was EMPHASIZED as just a parallel construction. And.........((I more a memory than a brag....)) I do have years of training in martial arts gained before I had 2000 hours in jet aircraft....not that I ever mentioned defense against aircraft which doesn't make good sense, but I assume Pilot In Command hours might help in some way such as knowing that a bullet hole on its own will no depressurize a plane? If you will go with the colloquial of the media loving mass shootings, you should not peep at all with reference to the debating skills of others.
parallel construction - evidentiary basis for a criminal investigation in order to conceal how an investigation actually began.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Image

You want to focus on the time period when they buy the gun, and used it, while I want to talk about the beginning, and the motivations that brought them to want to kill other human beings. Yet you accuse me of parallel construction? Seriously dude please try to not be so bias, and be a little open minded. You completely skip over the motives that drive people to kill like that doesn't matter (where it BEGAN), and the only thing that matters in the method they use to kill (the middle). At least try to clean off some of the bias on those glasses you see the world through.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:25 am

Gee whiz Coveny....you do more than miss any nuance presented to you.....you derive the exact opposite of what is clearly said: "I" made the parallel construction and it was a compliment to you. Too retro. I quit.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:29 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gee whiz Coveny....you do more than miss any nuance presented to you.....you derive the exact opposite of what is clearly said: "I" made the parallel construction and it was a compliment to you. Too retro. I quit.
Sorry about that, it's tedious to talk when the semantics get questioned too much. (in my opinion) Thanks for the compliment, and glad to put this to bed.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:45 pm

Once again we mostly agree. Once again...when both parties quit, the issue has not been put to bed. There is a difference between semantics and simply getting an issue/concept/word definition wrong. You do have skills. Think about polish.
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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Coveny » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Once again we mostly agree. Once again...when both parties quit, the issue has not been put to bed. There is a difference between semantics and simply getting an issue/concept/word definition wrong. You do have skills. Think about polish.
Thanks, I'm more concerned about the concepts/ideas than I am in polishing my presentation of them.

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by Gord » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:44 pm

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: Does the media love mass shooting?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:51 am

Coveny wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Once again we mostly agree. Once again...when both parties quit, the issue has not been put to bed. There is a difference between semantics and simply getting an issue/concept/word definition wrong. You do have skills. Think about polish.
Thanks, I'm more concerned about the concepts/ideas than I am in polishing my presentation of them.
Ha, ha.........yes, clearly both need work but as the one follows the other, I was actually referring to the concepts and ideas. This is not semantics but rather psycho-linguistics in the vein of we are what we think, and what we think with is words or as I sometimes say: "We think with words, and flower with ideas." Weeds occur with bad, sloppy, disregard for what words actually mean. Logical Fallacies. Refusal to admit to error. Refusal to change an idea when foundational elements of it are shown to be incorrect or not fully formed.

You know what I mean. Apply. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.
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