USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:02 pm

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Sorry, but US libertarians piss me off. . . .
Please do not misinterpret my lack of engagement with you on these issues as a sign of agreement with your opinions, interpretations, or perceptions the conclusions you've arrived at after in-depth research on US libertarian politicians and voters.
FIFY.
Your conclusions, no matter how well researched, are still your personal interpretations, perceptions, and opinions.

As are mine (in case that needed to be said).
I was clarifying that my opinion was not simply a knee-jerk emotional reaction, but a researched conclusion.

xouper wrote:Also, I erred in not making it clear that I was referring to all your political comments, not just about libertarians.
Except that I made it clear that my comments were not about libertarians; they were specifically about modern American libertarianism, which is not libertarianism at all; it's anarcho-capitalism.

From my test results (and my comments), it's clear that my ideology includes a healthy dose of classic libertarianism, as is often the case with New Englanders. But I am not a right-wing anarcho-capitalist and, from your results, neither are you. I believe if we discussed specific issues, we would find some logic-based commonality.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:50 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:. . . Sorry, but US libertarians piss me off. . . .
Please do not misinterpret my lack of engagement with you on these issues as a sign of agreement with your opinions, interpretations, or perceptions the conclusions you've arrived at after in-depth research on US libertarian politicians and voters.
FIFY.
Your conclusions, no matter how well researched, are still your personal interpretations, perceptions, and opinions.

As are mine (in case that needed to be said).
I was clarifying that my opinion was not simply a knee-jerk emotional reaction, but a researched conclusion.


OK, sorry, my bad, I failed to explain that I already knew your opinions were not knee-jerk emotional reactions. I don't recall that you have ever posted any observations that have not been sufficiently researched. I assumed (wrongly) that went without saying.


Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:Also, I erred in not making it clear that I was referring to all your political comments, not just about libertarians.
Except that I made it clear that my comments were not about libertarians; they were specifically about modern American libertarianism, which is not libertarianism at all; it's anarcho-capitalism. From my test results (and my comments), it's clear that my ideology includes a healthy dose of classic libertarianism, as is often the case with New Englanders. But I am not a right-wing anarcho-capitalist and, from your results, neither are you.


Clarification much appreciated. Thanks.


Nikki Nyx wrote:I believe if we discussed specific issues, we would find some logic-based commonality.


I believe you might be right.

What do we do about the issues we do not agree? Usually I will let those slide without comment, but sometimes it seems I let my button get pushed. :oops:

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:09 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I think it's silly to take pride in what amounts to an accident of birth. That whole "proud to be an American" thing is illogical to me; you didn't choose your nationality. It's not something you worked for and earned, meaning that you don't get credit for it, so where does the pride come from?


Perhaps I can take a stab at answering that.

Some people (myself included, but I don't know how many others), choose to be "proud to be an American" because they have adopted the values of American society and are proud of those values and what America stands for (or at least most of it). By the time we make the choice to be "proud to be an American", we usually have the option to renounce American citizenship and go to some other country where we would be proud to be one of them. But instead, we choose to remain an American citizen and be proud of that choice. I happen to be a dual citizen by birth, but I identify more with American values than my other country's values and I do that by choice, not by accident of birth.

Does that help? Answer too short? Or have I missed your point?

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:53 am

@xouper... It is very difficult to renounce American citizenship. IMO, it should be as easy as making a notorised statement of intent and handing in a passport for cancellation, as is the process for some countries.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:34 am

TJrandom wrote:@xouper... It is very difficult to renounce American citizenship. IMO, it should be as easy as making a notorised statement of intent and handing in a passport for cancellation, as is the process for some countries.


As I understand it, that's all it takes in the US too, except you have to do it in person and pay the fee.

Whether that is "very difficult", is a matter of opinion.

In any case, what point are you trying to make?

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:30 am

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:@xouper... It is very difficult to renounce American citizenship. IMO, it should be as easy as making a notorised statement of intent and handing in a passport for cancellation, as is the process for some countries.


As I understand it, that's all it takes in the US too, except you have to do it in person and pay the fee.

Whether that is "very difficult", is a matter of opinion.

In any case, what point are you trying to make?


Nope - far more complex than that. Must be outside of the country, apply for and obtain an appointment with a consolar person (sometimes months in the future), pay an onerous fee, have at least two follow-up appointments, submit a copy of past seven years (?) of tax returns, close out at lump (thus paying a higher tax rate) any tax reduced investments (IRAs, etc.).

I wasn’t trying to make a broader point - just commenting upon something you wrote that didn`t appear to be accurate.

(BTW - I am trying to take the vinegar out of my posts - the piss will have to wait for a while. :P )

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:51 am

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:@xouper... It is very difficult to renounce American citizenship. IMO, it should be as easy as making a notorised statement of intent and handing in a passport for cancellation, as is the process for some countries.


As I understand it, that's all it takes in the US too, except you have to do it in person and pay the fee.

Whether that is "very difficult", is a matter of opinion.

In any case, what point are you trying to make?


Nope - far more complex than that. Must be outside of the country, apply for and obtain an appointment with a consolar person (sometimes months in the future), pay an onerous fee, have at least two follow-up appointments, submit a copy of past seven years (?) of tax returns, close out at lump (thus paying a higher tax rate) any tax reduced investments (IRAs, etc.).

I wasn’t trying to make a broader point - just commenting upon something you wrote that didn`t appear to be accurate.

(BTW - I am trying to take the vinegar out of my posts - the piss will have to wait for a while. :P )


OK, well, I will take your word for it. I'm not going to bother researching it at this point.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:10 am

xouper wrote:OK, sorry, my bad, I failed to explain that I already knew your opinions were not knee-jerk emotional reactions. I don't recall that you have ever posted any observations that have not been sufficiently researched. I assumed (wrongly) that went without saying.
I try extremely hard to not have opinions unless I'm familiar with the subject matter, since any opinion requires factual data to be of any worth, IMO. Otherwise, it's merely a belief.

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:Also, I erred in not making it clear that I was referring to all your political comments, not just about libertarians.
Except that I made it clear that my comments were not about libertarians; they were specifically about modern American libertarianism, which is not libertarianism at all; it's anarcho-capitalism. From my test results (and my comments), it's clear that my ideology includes a healthy dose of classic libertarianism, as is often the case with New Englanders. But I am not a right-wing anarcho-capitalist and, from your results, neither are you.
Clarification much appreciated. Thanks.
You're welcome. It's an important distinction.

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:I believe if we discussed specific issues, we would find some logic-based commonality.
I believe you might be right.

What do we do about the issues we do not agree? Usually I will let those slide without comment, but sometimes it seems I let my button get pushed. :oops:
We discuss and debate them, based on the available factual data. Preferably without biting at each other's throats. :mrgreen: I think I also must clarify that I am neither a liberal nor a progressive as these terms are used today. For that reason, I'm an unaffiliated voter, which leaves me free to vote in any Party's primary under Massachusetts law.

For example, Massachusetts currently has a Republican governor. If he runs for reelection, I plan to vote for him. During his tenure, he has impressed me in a number of ways:
• Unlike most governors of my state, Charlie Baker doesn't think that Massachusetts exists only inside Route 128. He and his staff have made multiple visits to my end of the state, and addressed issues here, including environmental, economic, and infrastructure issues, to name a few.
• He doesn't allow his personal beliefs to override the will of his constituents. That's rare in a politician.
• He doesn't butt heads with our Democratic legislature, but engages in dialogues and compromises, which I appreciate.
• He cuts off pork barrel legislation at the pass, refusing to allow the legislature to spend our tax dollars without a valid, needed purpose...but not cutting spending thoughtlessly either.
I don't agree 100% with Charlie Baker's viewpoints, but I eschew political purity tests as being short-sighted and small-minded. He's been good for my state in the ways I've listed and numerous others.

Additionally, I cannot identify as a Democrat under the Party's current neoliberal policies. But I can't identify as a Republican under their current extreme right-wing policies. Frankly, they're both on the same coin, differing only in minor details in their policies, but blowing completely different dog whistles. I much prefer to research individual candidates and judge them on their own merit, not because of their Party affiliation. It's both more logical and more practical, IMO.

Lastly, while New England politicians may not identify as libertarian, New Englanders in general have a strong streak of classic libertarianism (not modern US libertarianism) regardless of Party affiliation. That's where we tend to have problems with mainstream Party politicians. On the one hand, don't attempt to legislate what we can do with our own bodies or in the privacy of our own homes (aimed at Republicans). OTOH, don't take away our guns either (aimed at Democrats)...New England is largely rural and has a lot of small towns without their own police forces, not to mention a large variety of wildlife and a strong hunting tradition. We're fine with regulations that are practical and useful, but object to legislating morality.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:13 am

xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I think it's silly to take pride in what amounts to an accident of birth. That whole "proud to be an American" thing is illogical to me; you didn't choose your nationality. It's not something you worked for and earned, meaning that you don't get credit for it, so where does the pride come from?
Perhaps I can take a stab at answering that.

Some people (myself included, but I don't know how many others), choose to be "proud to be an American" because they have adopted the values of American society and are proud of those values and what America stands for (or at least most of it).
What values are uniquely American? And what exactly does America stand for?

xouper wrote:...we choose to remain an American citizen and be proud of that choice. I happen to be a dual citizen by birth, but I identify more with American values than my other country's values and I do that by choice, not by accident of birth.
It's easy to have an opinion when you're utterly unaffected by the real world results. It's rather like me arguing strenuously in favor of circumcision when I don't have a penis. You're talking the talk, but refusing to walk the walk, since you don't live in the US, subject yourself to US law, or pay US taxes.

Frankly, I don't think I can respect your opinions on US politics, although we might still be able to discuss political ideologies in general. You spout patriotic narratives about "American values" and "pride in being American"...but you've chosen to live elsewhere. Your actions speak so loudly that they drown out your words.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby TJrandom » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:03 am

For clarity - living elsewhere does not alleviate the need to pay US taxes - that comes from citizenship, whether you live on Mars, Pluto, or in Nambia. That is, unless you are rich enough to implement strategies which remove the burden.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:34 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:You're talking the talk, but refusing to walk the walk, since you don't live in the US, subject yourself to US law, or pay US taxes.

Frankly, I don't think I can respect your opinions on US politics, although we might still be able to discuss political ideologies in general. You spout patriotic narratives about "American values" and "pride in being American"...but you've chosen to live elsewhere. Your actions speak so loudly that they drown out your words.


First of all, you just violated my privacy by telling everyone I don't currently live in the US, even after I asked you to keep that information private.

Shame on you.

Secondly, for the record:

  • I am an American citizen,
  • I have an American passport,
  • I pay American taxes,
  • I must abide by American laws,
  • I am registered to vote in American elections,
  • and I have siblings and other close family in the US.

How dare you accuse me of not being an American, even though I am temporarily living in another country at the moment.

I also happen to be a citizen of both countries, by birth.

And since you do not know the reasons I am temporarily living in another country at the moment, it is not valid for you to infer that my actions speak louder than my words.

Seriously, Nikki, you have crossed the line here. Shame on you.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:41 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:I believe if we discussed specific issues, we would find some logic-based commonality.

I believe you might be right. What do we do about the issues we do not agree? Usually I will let those slide without comment, but sometimes it seems I let my button get pushed. :oops:

We discuss and debate them, based on the available factual data. Preferably without biting at each other's throats. :mrgreen: I think I also must clarify that I am neither a liberal nor a progressive as these terms are used today. For that reason, I'm an unaffiliated voter, which leaves me free to vote in any Party's primary under Massachusetts law.

For example, Massachusetts currently has a Republican governor. If he runs for reelection, I plan to vote for him. During his tenure, he has impressed me in a number of ways:
• Unlike most governors of my state, Charlie Baker doesn't think that Massachusetts exists only inside Route 128. He and his staff have made multiple visits to my end of the state, and addressed issues here, including environmental, economic, and infrastructure issues, to name a few.
• He doesn't allow his personal beliefs to override the will of his constituents. That's rare in a politician.
• He doesn't butt heads with our Democratic legislature, but engages in dialogues and compromises, which I appreciate.
• He cuts off pork barrel legislation at the pass, refusing to allow the legislature to spend our tax dollars without a valid, needed purpose...but not cutting spending thoughtlessly either.
I don't agree 100% with Charlie Baker's viewpoints, but I eschew political purity tests as being short-sighted and small-minded. He's been good for my state in the ways I've listed and numerous others.

Additionally, I cannot identify as a Democrat under the Party's current neoliberal policies. But I can't identify as a Republican under their current extreme right-wing policies. Frankly, they're both on the same coin, differing only in minor details in their policies, but blowing completely different dog whistles. I much prefer to research individual candidates and judge them on their own merit, not because of their Party affiliation. It's both more logical and more practical, IMO.

Lastly, while New England politicians may not identify as libertarian, New Englanders in general have a strong streak of classic libertarianism (not modern US libertarianism) regardless of Party affiliation. That's where we tend to have problems with mainstream Party politicians. On the one hand, don't attempt to legislate what we can do with our own bodies or in the privacy of our own homes (aimed at Republicans). OTOH, don't take away our guns either (aimed at Democrats)...New England is largely rural and has a lot of small towns without their own police forces, not to mention a large variety of wildlife and a strong hunting tradition. We're fine with regulations that are practical and useful, but object to legislating morality.


It seems our political views have more in common than I originally suspected.

I am neither Democrat, nor Republican, nor Libertarian, nor any other party. There are issues in all parties that I do not agree with, and there issues in all parties I do agree with. I am an independent. I vote according to the issues, not the party. Often I have to hold my nose when I vote because there is almost always something to dislike about every candidate.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:54 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I think it's silly to take pride in what amounts to an accident of birth. That whole "proud to be an American" thing is illogical to me; you didn't choose your nationality. It's not something you worked for and earned, meaning that you don't get credit for it, so where does the pride come from?


Apparently that was a rhetorical question and you weren't really interested in pondering the sincere answer I gave. Instead you attacked me personally with erroneous inferences based on information you did not have permission to make public. Lesson learned.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:13 am

Anthony Weiner just got sentenced to 21 months (eligible for parole in 4).

That means even in the worst case, he will be out in time to run for president in 2020.
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby TJrandom » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:03 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Anthony Weiner just got sentenced to 21 months (eligible for parole in 4).

That means even in the worst case, he will be out in time to run for president in 2020.


He will fit right in alongside Trump...

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:53 am

Lena Dunham compares President Trump to church shooter Dylann Roof and calls him a 'racist with untreated mental illness' after NFL attacks
Daily Fail (UK)

Relevance to this thread: Will she be constitutionally old enough to run for president in 2020?
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Gord » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:26 am

Why would anyone even want to shoot a church in the first place?
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby TJrandom » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:12 am

Gord wrote:Why would anyone even want to shoot a church in the first place?


In some places it is impossible to miss, there being so many. Any random shot will do.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:27 am

TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:Why would anyone even want to shoot a church in the first place?


In some places it is impossible to miss, there being so many. Any random shot will do.


Is that the Texas Church Shooter fallacy?

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby TJrandom » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:56 am

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote:Why would anyone even want to shoot a church in the first place?


In some places it is impossible to miss, there being so many. Any random shot will do.


Is that the Texas Church Shooter fallacy?


I wouldn`t want to spend enough time in Texas to find out. What would it take - 5 minutes? :roll:

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:19 am

Preserved for the record, in case there is a dispute about who started the hostilities here:

Nikki Nyx wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I think it's silly to take pride in what amounts to an accident of birth. That whole "proud to be an American" thing is illogical to me; you didn't choose your nationality. It's not something you worked for and earned, meaning that you don't get credit for it, so where does the pride come from?
Perhaps I can take a stab at answering that.

Some people (myself included, but I don't know how many others), choose to be "proud to be an American" because they have adopted the values of American society and are proud of those values and what America stands for (or at least most of it).
What values are uniquely American? And what exactly does America stand for?

xouper wrote:...we choose to remain an American citizen and be proud of that choice. I happen to be a dual citizen by birth, but I identify more with American values than my other country's values and I do that by choice, not by accident of birth.
It's easy to have an opinion when you're utterly unaffected by the real world results. It's rather like me arguing strenuously in favor of circumcision when I don't have a penis. You're talking the talk, but refusing to walk the walk, since you don't live in the US, subject yourself to US law, or pay US taxes.

Frankly, I don't think I can respect your opinions on US politics, although we might still be able to discuss political ideologies in general. You spout patriotic narratives about "American values" and "pride in being American"...but you've chosen to live elsewhere. Your actions speak so loudly that they drown out your words.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:24 am

:hmm: Really? Jumping to (the apparently wrong) conclusions is "hostility"?
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:02 am

scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: Really? Jumping to (the apparently wrong) conclusions is "hostility"?


There's more to this than meets the eye.

Be careful about "jumping to conclusions" yourself.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:13 am

xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: Really? Jumping to (the apparently wrong) conclusions is "hostility"?


There's more to this than meets the eye.

There usually is.

However, not thinking or existing to one's personal standard doesn't necessarily denote hostility. :)

Be careful about "jumping to conclusions" yourself.
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby xouper » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:26 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
xouper wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: Really? Jumping to (the apparently wrong) conclusions is "hostility"?


There's more to this than meets the eye.

There usually is.

However, not thinking or existing to one's personal standard doesn't necessarily denote hostility. :)


I agree.

Making erroneous inferences is a common error on this forum. We've all done it. However, when those erroneous inferences are the basis for disparaging someone's character or reputation, that's hostile.

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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:32 pm

I've heard this before, but this is the first time I've seen it in a "mainstream" "paper", albeit a trashy tabloid.

Democrats’ best hope for 2020: Oprah
New York Post

On Sunday night’s “60 Minutes,” a panel of Michigan voters spent 20 minutes discussing their political differences on screen. It was a moving segment and a powerful one, but it wasn’t all that novel if you’ve been paying attention to the political divide over the past year. The power came not really from what the panelists were saying but who the moderator was: Oprah Winfrey.

Listening, asking, speaking without judgment, trying to find common ground — it was a superb performance by Oprah, and I use the word “performance” advisedly. She was dazzling in exactly the way that Oprah could always be dazzling, finding a tone appropriate for the moment without being heavy-handed.

If any figure in the United States bears watching over the next couple of years as our political culture continues the radical transformation that led to the election of Donald Trump, it’s Oprah. I believe she’s uniquely positioned, should she wish to commit herself, to seek the Democratic nomination for president and challenge Trump in 2020.

...
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:28 pm

Who am I kidding?

Hillary will run again.

Trump and Fox News say so. :mrgreen:

Trump dares 'crooked' Hillary to run again after she blames loss on Comey 'shiv'

President Trump and Hillary Clinton are still going at it, and if Trump has his way, they'll square off again in 2020.

President Trump tweeted Monday that he hopes “Crooked” Hillary Clinton runs for president again, even as the former secretary of state was telling an Australian media outlet that former FBI Director James Comey gave her the "shiv."

“I was recently asked if Crooked Hillary Clinton is going to run in 2020? My answer was, “I hope so!” Trump tweeted.

...
Scientists don't know everything, therefore my favorite flavor of stoopidz is true.

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ElectricMonk
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Re: USA 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:48 pm

If Trump runs, Clinton would have a good chance - again.
Trump has lost all outsider credentials and won't have much to show for in terms of achievements.
Most importantly, the media will try to make up for all the missed reporting on past and present Trump scandals.
Luckily, the DNC can't risk being seen as supporting her.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams


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