Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:48 am

All right, you bastards, I've got Viking blood and I'm coming to your party!
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:04 am

No, no, no. Not the bloody Vikings. Arrrgh!

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:17 am

Scots made the Romans build a wall, and made them pay for it.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:47 am

Yeah. Just like the Mexicans will make the Merkins make a wall and pay for it.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:41 am

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:19 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:And what I find astonishing is your patronizing racist assumption that blacks can't be expected to move past it by now. The Chinese, the South Koreans, the Jews of Europe have all experienced terrible hardship in recent history, and yet none of these peoples are wallowing in impoverishment and misery today. Homosexuals in the West have faced severe discrimination even more recently than blacks, and yet you don't see homosexuals consistently scoring low on socio-economic indicators in 2017. The problem is not what happened to the ancestors of black people 50, 100 or 200 years ago, the problem is how both black and white people (particularly black and white leftists) relate to it.


Pay attention people, There will be a quiz on this. How many of you remember the hundreds of slave ships that kidnapped hundreds of thousands of Chinese, South Koreans, and European Jews, brought them in chains at the bottom of those ships to America, and worked them like draft horses, beating them with whips if they didn't work, forbidding them to learn how to read and write, occasionally renting their labor out to others and pocketing the fee for that labor "just like a pirate," as Frederick Douglass so aptly put it?


Yeah, because being slaughtered by the millions and brutally oppressed by the tens and hundreds of millions mere decades ago is so much better than the being enslaved by the hundreds of thousands centuries ago!

How many remember the lynchings and beatings?


There have been about 4,750 recorded lynchings in the US since 1882 (about a quarter of which involved white victims). Considering 99% of those 4,750 pre-date the end of World War 2 and virtually all of them pre-date the mid 60’s, the answer to your question is “probably not that many”.
By the way, this means more blacks have been killed by other blacks in the last two years than by lynchings in the last 135 years.

As for the homosexuals, they have always lived among us, closeted in most cases. You may recall that one of them was head of the FBI for many decades.
'

So what? There were highly successful and famous black Americans in the mid-20th century too. What is it with you and making arguments based on single (and questionable) data points??

Not being free to express one's sexuality is in no way comparable to being a slave.


You know what, I actually have to agree with you here, it isn’t comparable - people were getting imprisoned for being homosexual long after slavery was abolished in the US!

You, VKTW, are willfully blind, if you think there are no lingering effects of these centuries of discrimination, if you think the minute discrimination stops, its victims will have the education and capital accumulation just to "move on."


You are a condescending grievance-mongering racist if you think that “lingering effects” are keeping blacks down when other groups have overcome more severe adversity more recently. If anyone is wilfully blind here, it’s you. You are wilfully blind to the stupid government policies which, despite being designed to help blacks, have often done them more harm than good. You are wilfully blind to the significant difference in average IQ between blacks and whites. You are wilfully blind to the role that the values, choices, and culture of black people themselves play in shaping their living conditions. But most of all, you are wilfully blind to the noxiously self-fulfilling effect of indoctrinating black people with your insidious Marxist victimhood narrative.

But I'm not surprised at your blindness. When I cited an absurd example of the kind of racial scorekeeping you were doing, you took it seriously as an example of my own racial scorekeeping. Try to get some acquaintance with facts and elementary logic.


No, I said that you engaged in “racial scorekeeping” by starting this thread in the first place. Don’t get me wrong, I’m well aware that it’s a BS accusation you made up to conceal the fact that the evidence doesn’t support your position, but if you’re going to go down that road then I can just as easily hurl the same accusation back at you.'

I don't know about VKTW, but these days, I'm certainly embarrassed about being an American.

Then you're welcome to move to Canada and stop being one!

I've got a better idea. YOU get out! This is my country and I have the right to discuss its faults.

You’re the one that’s “embarrassed” about being American here, and you’re embarrassed because of past events that can’t be changed. So if the US is such a source of incurable embarrassment to you, then you might as well wash your hands of it. Don’t worry though, you’ll have plenty of opportunity to bitch and virtue-signal about its faults when you become a Canadian…
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:28 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Again, from the holy books, how many sons must suffer the sins of the fathers? Seven generations? Hasn't the warranty period expired yet?


It won't expire until it becomes politically unprofitable for the Left to exploit it.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:17 pm

Kwan

As soon as you mention IQ, you reveal your deeply racist beliefs.

For your information, average IQ is growing decade by decade, probably due to education. What is of note, is that the rate of growth is much greater in blacks than in whites. They have further to go because they have not had the benefit of a culture that encourages abstract thinking, and the education to go with it. But their rate of IQ increase is such that in another century or so, with current trends, they will average a higher IQ than whites.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:30 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:You know what, I actually have to agree with you here, it isn’t comparable - people were getting imprisoned for being homosexual long after slavery was abolished in the US!


Well, that's a hopeful sign. Actually, I fear we've gotten off on the wrong foot here, with some mutual misunderstanding.

Let me be clear: I said, and I do believe, that the horrible history of US racism lies at the root of the present economic and social inequality between black Americans and white Americans. But that does not mean, as you seem to have inferred, that I think (1) black people are incapable of overcoming that history, or (2) that there has been no progress. On the contrary, we are nowhere close to where we were 50 years ago. Harlem and other predominantly black urban areas are getting gentrified, southern blacks are no longer afraid to go to the polls to vote, and millions of black Americans have seen their standard of living go up. But inequalities remain, and my original post was merely a link pointing out that organized racist groups of people who hate black people are still a threat to black people, who can't escape them if they wish to participate in American life. The situation with white people is not symmetric. White people who don't want to be in contact with black people can usually manage to insulate themselves from such contacts.

On my part, I'm having trouble seeing how you account for the continuing inequality, if not as the result of our history. I had come to the conclusion that you were blaming black people for this situation, essentially saying that collectively they lack moral fiber. As that is a racist position, and you claim that you are not racist, but take people as they come, I won't draw that conclusion yet. But do explain yourself. This is, after all, a website devoted to rational, reasoned discussion. Perhaps the gulf between us is not after all unbridgeable.

Oh, as an after thought, I do deny having a "Marxist victimhood narrative."
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:39 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: For your information, average IQ is growing decade by decade, probably due to education. .

While true, by definition IQ tests are supposed to be measurements of "raw ability" NOT affected by education or experience................but, the truth is they are. Always have been, always will be.

IQ Tests: are "manufactured" to get the results they do. When they show sexual or racial or cultural differences...... its BECAUSE OF THE QUESTIONS ASKED, and how they are scored. That is why if a test for instance shows females to score lower on spatial orientation "aptitude" then the questions are "jiggered" until the desired 50/50 outcome is reached. The test can be jiggered in other ways as well TO GET ANY RESULT YOU WISH.

Cultural Bias.

.............................. Its a bitch.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:54 pm

IQ also declines about 1 point every 2 to 3 years after peak, due to age. Peak IQ is about early to mid twenties.

But thems kids don't know {!#%@}.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:34 pm

Bobbo

My comments on IQ were in response to Kwan's racist claim that African Americans have a lower IQ than whites. Though this is, on average, currently true, it does not reflect on their innate intelligence. Just on poorer education.

The Flynn Effect shows that IQ is growing. Your point about adjusting IQ is correct, but to determine this effect, that adjustment is taken into account. Clearly IQ is growing. However, it is interesting that the aspect of IQ that is growing is the ability to manipulate abstract concepts. 100 years ago, such abstractions were not part of everyday life. Today they are. And black people have that part of their measured intelligence growing at a faster rate than whites. This indicates that their lower IQ scores are the result of education and learning, rather than, as Kwan would tell you, something innate.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:46 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: However, it is interesting that the aspect of IQ that is growing is the ability to manipulate abstract concepts.

"Studies reveal that left-handed people are actually better at mathematics".

I'm left handed. That's why I have to add cartoons to my posts, so all you right handed people can try catch up. :D

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:29 am

Nice, Matthew, bearing in mind the number of people on this forum who are innumerate. Or at least have no respect to for numerical data.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:15 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nice, Matthew, bearing in mind the number of people on this forum who are innumerate. Or at least have no respect to for numerical data.

Or grammar. :P
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:47 am

Gord

Please chastise me not for my typos.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:26 am

Oh, he's gonna bring that for seven generations.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Gord » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:45 pm

Can't I not chastise not you not for your grammar, nor not your typos?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:00 pm

I plead human fallibility. I make lots of typos, and my spell corrector has a sense of humor, so that a lot of auto corrections are weird!

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

My comments on IQ were in response to Kwan's racist claim that African Americans have a lower IQ than whites. Though this is, on average, currently true, it does not reflect on their innate intelligence. Just on poorer education.


We don't "know" that as any IQ test is culturally biased. Just "exactly WHAT" the IQ test even measures is subject to debate....as there is no proof.... only correlations. Higher IQ correlates positively to higher grades, college graduation, later income and so forth. But is that "intelligence" or social integration?

The more important point is that all human traits are found variously among all human groups however they are defined. IE: what may be valid for a group, is not valid for an individual.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:28 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote: For your information, average IQ is growing decade by decade, probably due to education. .

While true, by definition IQ tests are supposed to be measurements of "raw ability" NOT affected by education or experience................but, the truth is they are. Always have been, always will be.

IQ Tests: are "manufactured" to get the results they do. When they show sexual or racial or cultural differences...... its BECAUSE OF THE QUESTIONS ASKED, and how they are scored. That is why if a test for instance shows females to score lower on spatial orientation "aptitude" then the questions are "jiggered" until the desired 50/50 outcome is reached. The test can be jiggered in other ways as well TO GET ANY RESULT YOU WISH.

Cultural Bias.

.............................. Its a bitch.


Nice post, bobbo! This argument is a very old one. You can find prefigurations of it in Hofstadter's book Rendezvous with Destiny. The belief in the lower intelligence of the black races was reinforced by the lack of most signs of civilization in Africa (discounting the effect of possible black genes among the ancient Egyptians---and no!, I don't believe the ancient Egyptians were "black." They painted themselves copper-colored with straight hair, for one thing). Anyway, the pioneering anthropological work of Franz Boas showed that the IQs of northern Negroes were higher than the IQs of southern Negroes. Racists tried to explain that away by saying that obviously the most intelligent Negroes had moved North. Unfortunately, it then turned out that northern Whites had higher IQs than southern Whites. By elementary syllogism....

Again, obviously, the split is between a rural, agricultural milieu and an urban, industrial milieu. The latter encourages the development of more abstract thinking. That's really all there is to the argument, as you have very well said.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:57 pm

Gord wrote:Can't I not chastise not you not for your grammar, nor not your typos?

Is it thee, thy, thou, ye, or thine? I can never figure those out, but I'm sure if we all did it would reduce some of the confusion we have these days, with all these ambiguous "yous" flying about.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:38 pm

If I tell thee, thy curiosity shall be satisfied. Thou shall know better. Knowledge shall be thine. (Subsitiute 'shalt' for 'shall' if you want to be a purist).
As for ye - it never existed. In the early days of printing, the letter 'thorn' - pronounced 'th' but looking very like a Y with two cross-strokes on the stem - was still in use, so it was perfectly OK to write the word 'the' using thorn. Later, when thorn went out of use, people thought it was simply a fancy 'Y' and so read what had always been 'The' as 'Ye'.
You're welcome.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:43 pm

I knew that. Thanks for typing it for me, sucker.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Refer to last line.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:03 pm

There's a formal Latin quote for that. One of my ex-GFs used to say it to me all the time...

It's like, "What the {!#%@} did I just say, bitch?" *eyeroll*

But I'm not sure I got the pronunciation right.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:24 pm

I found that interesting, Poodle. From now on, I shall endeavor not to use the word 'ye'.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:22 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Kwan

As soon as you mention IQ, you reveal your deeply racist beliefs.


How?? Either the differences between races in average IQ are real or they aren't. Pointing them out does not make me a racist anymore than if I were to point out that blacks win more sprinting Olympic gold medals than whites.


For your information, average IQ is growing decade by decade, probably due to education.


Where did I ever suggest that average IQs were fixed or genetically hardwired?

What is of note, is that the rate of growth is much greater in blacks than in whites. They have further to go because they have not had the benefit of a culture that encourages abstract thinking, and the education to go with it. But their rate of IQ increase is such that in another century or so, with current trends, they will average a higher IQ than whites.


No doubt you'll provide a source to back this claim up. Any moment now...Until you do, I will caution you about extrapolating this alleged current trend 100+ years into the future, especially considering that it is reasonable to expect that the easiest gains in average IQ will be made first.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Jeff_36 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:35 am

Don't get me wrong, I'm #BlueLivesMatter all the way and have a very negative view of BLM, but to suggest that Blacks are in any way anything but the total equal of whites in every way is to dip your toes into racism.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:49 am

There is absolutely no scientific evidence that African Americans are less intelligent than whites. 100 years ago, the average white guy had an IQ lower than the average black guy today. Did that make those guys less intelligent. It is Kwans belief in lower intelligence that makes him racist.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:03 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:You know what, I actually have to agree with you here, it isn’t comparable - people were getting imprisoned for being homosexual long after slavery was abolished in the US!


Well, that's a hopeful sign. Actually, I fear we've gotten off on the wrong foot here, with some mutual misunderstanding.

Let me be clear: I said, and I do believe, that the horrible history of US racism lies at the root of the present economic and social inequality between black Americans and white Americans.


I don't care if you believe that, what I care about is whether your belief is consistent with the evidence. So far you have not come anywhere near convincing me that it is.


But that does not mean, as you seem to have inferred, that I think (1) black people are incapable of overcoming that history, or (2) that there has been no progress.


I haven't inferred (1), your whole argument has been premised on it. When I pointed out to you that other recently oppressed groups have managed to become more successful than blacks, you dismissed them because you thought that there was something uniquely insurmountable about the suffering of blacks in the US.

But inequalities remain, and my original post was merely a link pointing out that organized racist groups of people who hate black people are still a threat to black people, who can't escape them if they wish to participate in American life.


Inequalities may remain, but that does not mean that those inequalities are due to some sort of systemic white-on-black racism past or present. Your original post made no reference to organized anti-black racists groups, it talked about ONE homicide committed by ONE attacker who may or may not have been motivated by racism.

The situation with white people is not symmetric.


Yes, as the disproportionately large number of black-on-white homicides shows!

White people who don't want to be in contact with black people can usually manage to insulate themselves from such contacts.


The inverse is just as true.

On my part, I'm having trouble seeing how you account for the continuing inequality


Then you haven't been reading my posts, because I have clearly highlighted a number of relevant factors that have little or nothing to do with muh Institutional White Racism (TM).

I had come to the conclusion that you were blaming black people for this situation, essentially saying that collectively they lack moral fiber. As that is a racist position, and you claim that you are not racist, but take people as they come, I won't draw that conclusion yet.


No I'm not saying they lack "moral fiber", I'm saying that there situation is a primarily a product of their choices and incentives. This is about as far from racist as you can get, because what I am saying is that black people have the power to shape and improve their destinies if they so choose. You, on the other hand, are promoting a Marxist-inspired victimhood mythology which deprives black people of agency and power over their lives and instead puts it in the hands of some ill-defined Evil White Oppressor. THAT is racist towards both black and white people.

Oh, as an after thought, I do deny having a "Marxist victimhood narrative."


Deny it all you want, it's still true.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:05 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:There is absolutely no scientific evidence that African Americans are less intelligent than whites.


You just admitted that there is, Lance! :roll:

100 years ago, the average white guy had an IQ lower than the average black guy today. Did that make those guys less intelligent. It is Kwans belief in lower intelligence that makes him racist.


You do know what "IQ" stands for, right? Pointing out facts does not make me racist.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:06 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm #BlueLivesMatter all the way and have a very negative view of BLM, but to suggest that Blacks are in any way anything but the total equal of whites in every way is to dip your toes into racism.


So you'll insist that whites are just as good at running, jumping, and tolerating high UV conditions as blacks then?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:13 am

http://racialreality.blogspot.co.nz/201 ... ffect.html

The reference above discusses the way IQ scores change over time (the Flynn Effect), and points out that an African IQ today is equal to the average English IQ 100 years ago. The Flynn Effect shows how IQ measures increase over time with education, and blacks are simply starting later on this path of change. I said there is no scientific evidence that blacks are less intelligent than whites, and this is true, when you realise that IQ measures a specific kind of intelligence, rather than overall intelligence.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Aztexan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:49 am

{!#%@} trump!

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:08 am



So it's okay for blacks to be aggressively hostile towards police, but it's not okay for police to allow this hostility to have any bearing on how they relate to black suspects. Alrighty then...
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://racialreality.blogspot.co.nz/2011/11/african-iq-and-the-flynn-effect.html

The reference above discusses the way IQ scores change over time (the Flynn Effect), and points out that an African IQ today is equal to the average English IQ 100 years ago. The Flynn Effect shows how IQ measures increase over time with education, and blacks are simply starting later on this path of change.



In other words, there is evidence that blacks are less intelligent on average than whites. Why this is the case is beside the point, and it really doesn't take all that much intelligence to understand the distinction.

I said there is no scientific evidence that blacks are less intelligent than whites,


And then promptly refuted yourself. Well done :roll:


...and this is true, when you realise that IQ measures a specific kind of intelligence, rather than overall intelligence.


A specific kind of intelligence is still intelligence, ergo lower average IQs are in fact evidence of lower intelligence. People tend to look at IQ as the measure of, or at least a reliable indicator of "overall" intelligence. If you are seriously suggesting that people with IQs in the 70s and 80s can have high "overall intelligence", then I have a bridge to sell you.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
- Mark Twain

The Terrifying Brilliance of the Islamic Memeplex

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Aztexan » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:25 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:


So it's okay for blacks to be aggressively hostile towards police, but it's not okay for police to allow this hostility to have any bearing on how they relate to black suspects. Alrighty then...


Yeah you're an {!#%@}. Go crawl back under your rock, you trump supporting prick
{!#%@} trump!

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:43 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote: So you'll insist that whites are just as good at running, jumping, and tolerating high UV conditions as blacks then?

Running = Yes
Jumping = Yes
UV = No.

Say Woo: can you favor us with your best understanding of what BLM means? So far... you haven't come close....but it may be an artifact of confusion with NWA?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:24 pm

On the running and jumping thing.
One thing we do know about people of African descent, is that they have a broader genetic base than the rest of humanity. This makes sense when you realise that our species is (recent discovery) about 350,000 years old, but those who live outside Africa have done so only for the past 100,000 years. Africans have substantial genetic diversity, while the rest have less genetic diversity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02485.html

Genetic diversity means more individuals at the extreme. In athletics, that means some people who are very good at running, jumping etc. It also means more people with inbuilt genius, at the genetic level. All it requires is the right social set up for those people of African descent, to encourage and develop that level of genius.

Black people in the USA have, on average, lower IQ than white people. But they do not have lower intelligence at the genetic level. IQ is not intelligence. It is simply a set of mental skills that are measured with an IQ test. If you imagined an African man who was a highly skilled tracker, able to follow an antelope across many kilometers of wilderness, until the kill, is he less intelligent than a white guy who can simply manipulate words in his mind .?

Just to risk being accused of being sexist, let me also point out that the same principle applies to the genders and intelligence. At least for IQ. Males have a broader range of IQ than females. That means that more males are morons (some on this forum), but more are also geniuses. Which may be a partial explanation for why most genius scientists are male.


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