Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

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Venerable Kwan Tam Woo
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:11 am

Hex wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:snip>

The only thing I was addressing was the standard that you judge one group to another. I'm not terribly surprised you didn't understand that.


Neither am I, considering that sentence wasn't even coherent!

No one is fooled by you trying to claim that you are not racist by hiding behind "facts"


How exactly am I racist? Because I don't subscribe to the leftist victimhood narrative that brainwashes blacks into feeling helpless and oppressed? And why are you putting facts in quotation marks?

some you present is just pure propaganda,


Which ones do you think are pure propaganda, and why?

some have truth to them but you never extend those "facts" into why, which is kind of an important element.


I've been doing exactly that throughout the whole thread! If your evasive dishonest "snip>" is anything to go by, you've probably done a bobbo and simply imagined what I've been saying rather than actually bothering to read it.

I don't know why you just don't embrace your racism if you feel you are so right why lie about your position?


Because I don't have any racism to embrace. My position is not a racist position, if anyone has a racist position here it's the leftists with their toxic race-baiting victimhood narrative which necessarily assumes that whites are superior to blacks.

You seriously are fooling no one no matter how much you protest.


What would be the point of trying to fool you when you're already doing such a good job of fooling yourself?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Kwan

Extreme right wing views are often not distinguishable from prejudice.


That's only true if you're a puny-minded leftist.

Yours fit that description.


How??

You talk of the disadvantaged not taking responsibility and talk of those who exploit the disadvantaged as being responsible.


Yep. Note your own use of the word "exploit".

Well, you are wrong.


Don't just assert it, back it up!

Those who are disadvantaged are mostly in that situation because of circumstance, and not because of personal weakness.


How do you know this? Do you seriously not think that the prevalence of single-parent households, gangster idolization and anti-intellectualism amongst blacks has anything to do with their situations??


You love Donald Trump who got a mega million dollar helping hand from his father. Fred Trump may have been a great man, working to better himself, but his son is a parasite.


A "parasite" who turned $1 million into $4 billion and became President of the United States. If that's what a parasite is, then sign me up!

The odds are that if Don the con was born to middle or lower class parents, he would never have made any significant wealth at all.


Been peering into your Magic Parallel Universe Crystal Ball again, have you?

Black people who are poor are not poor due to moral weakness,


They are poor due in large part to choices and incentives, and moral weakness does have something to do with that.

but due to the circumstances they find themselves in.


...which is another way of saying that they are helpless victims of circumstance. You are basically saying that you'd rather see blacks as helpless victims of Whitey than as morally flawed people with their own agency. Do you have any idea how racist that is?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:48 am

http://www.investopedia.com/updates/donald-trump-rich/

The reference above shows how Trump got his start, and the importance of the input from his father.

Kwan

I do not see African descent people's as helpless victims of whitey. In fact, many become doctors and lawyers and businesspeople. However, unlike you, Kwan, I do not assume that someone who is poor is in that state due to some kind of personal shortcoming. The reasons for that poverty are usually circumstances (which also applies to the poor white people too.) The circumstances sometimes relate to their lack of education, or to a legacy of false ideas. The point is that you do not fix these problems with the contempt you show for those less fortunate. You fix the problem by understanding it, and providing appropriate assistance.

People of African descent do sometimes need assistance (as do their equivalent among European poor), and the refusal to face this is racist.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Hex » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:44 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Neither am I, considering that sentence wasn't even coherent!

Again, not surprised you didn't understand, racists usually are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Maybe if I decide to comment on one of your racist screed posts in the future, I'll knock it down to a 3rd grade level of speech, so both you and Donny Tiny Hands can maybe understand it better.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:55 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:..........you've probably done a bobbo and simply imagined what I've been saying rather than actually bothering to read it.

I haven't imagined what you've been saying at all. IIRC I did respond to Lance's characterization of it which stands on its own given I made clear I didn't read much of what your wrote. This misstatement of clearly stated facts is just one example of how this came to be. You do make sophisticated arguments close to the grain...... but then you mix that with BS and artificial manipulation. Not fun for me to try and separate the chaff. That plus your posts are too long. Long is good when they are coherent as noted above.

Black vs White. Its a mix of things.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:32 am

Hex wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Neither am I, considering that sentence wasn't even coherent!

Again, not surprised you didn't understand, racists usually are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.


Hence your inability to string a coherent sentence together.

Maybe if I decide to comment on one of your racist screed posts in the future, I'll knock it down to a 3rd grade level of speech, so both you and Donny Tiny Hands can maybe understand it better.


Maybe you should try lifting up to a 3rd grade level of speech. It just might help make your sidestepping a little less obvious...
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Hex » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:44 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Hence your inability to string a coherent sentence together.

You keep saying it, but I don't think you understand what it means. I'm starting to feel sorry for your failed education and parental upbringing, your Mom and Dad (You did have a Dad in your household, right?) must've been especially vile people to propagate an idiot of your caliber.

Almost, hateful little toads like you don't deserve much empathy.

Oh right, better make this so you understand.

You are a hateful idiot and so were your mother and possibly your father. (Though I'm doubting he was ever around.)
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:16 am

Hex wrote: You are a hateful idiot and so were your mother and possibly your father. (Though I'm doubting he was ever around.)

His blog "Citizen Warrior" is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Centre. . :D
Last edited by Matthew Ellard on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://www.investopedia.com/updates/donald-trump-rich/

The reference above shows how Trump got his start, and the importance of the input from his father.


I've already addressed this BS charge of yours on two previous occasions Lance. It's not my fault if you don't even have the reading comprehension ability to understand your own goddam sources.

I do not see African descent people's as helpless victims of whitey. In fact, many become doctors and lawyers and businesspeople.


So tell me then, how did these black doctors and lawyers and businessmen rise above the Brutal Oppression of White Institutional Racism(TM)?


However, unlike you, Kwan, I do not assume that someone who is poor is in that state due to some kind of personal shortcoming. The reasons for that poverty are usually circumstances (which also applies to the poor white people too.)


I don't assume that all poor people are in that state because of personal shortcoming. Some people just fall into poverty because of really bad luck, but those people represent a minority of cases. Most people who fall into poverty, and especially those stay in poverty long-term, do so because of bad life choices. There are many easy straightforward choices a person can make that will help them to avoid poverty: finish high school, get a full-time job (even a minimum wage one), get married, refrain from having children out of wedlock, avoid drugs, avoid alcohol, avoid gambling, avoid getting involved in crime, stick to a budget.

Now notice how every single one of these good life choices is discouraged by some major aspect of contemporary black culture. Getting married and waiting to have children are discouraged by the Playa ethos. Finishing school, getting a full-time job and sticking to a budget are discouraged by both the Uncle Tom ethos and the Victimhood ethos. Avoiding drugs, alcohol, gambling and crime are discouraged by both the Gangsta ethos and the Victimhood ethos. We simply do not need to resort to "white privilege" and "institutional racism" to explain the plight of blacks, because their own culture is more than enough to explain it.

The circumstances sometimes relate to their lack of education, or to a legacy of false ideas.


Yes, like the false idea that they are victims of slavery and institutional racial oppression.

The point is that you do not fix these problems with the contempt you show for those less fortunate.


Saying that they have the power to improve their own lives is about as far from showing them contempt as you can get! It is leftists like you who show them contempt when you call them victims of circumstance and encourage them to become welfare dependent.

You fix the problem by understanding it, and providing appropriate assistance.


Oh the irony...

People of African descent do sometimes need assistance (as do their equivalent among European poor), and the refusal to face this is racist.


Racist against whom? You just said that both blacks AND whites sometimes need assistance! Moreover, that "assistance" can often do more harm than good.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:24 am

Hex wrote:You are a hateful idiot and so were your mother and possibly your father. (Though I'm doubting he was ever around.)


If you want to rage-quit the conversation, that's fine. You need to go work on bringing your ad-homs up to a 3rd grade level anyway.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:50 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Police procedure not followed. The cruiser hasn't even come to a stop, and the cop on the passenger side jumps out and shoots Tamir Rice without provocation. A 12-year-old boy playing with a toy gun. The cops did not stop a safe distance away, order him to drop the "gun," or make any attempt whatsoever to determine whether there was danger. They {!#%@} murdered a child. The murderer's testimony? "I had no choice." Yes, he {!#%@} well did have a choice. But he chose to murder a child.


"They" didn't kill a child, a particular officer did. That particular officer was forced to resign from his previous policing job because of psychological problems which he failed to disclose to the police department he was working for when he shot Tamir. In other words the police had mechanisms in place to remove and keep officers like him out of their ranks, and he cheated the system to get around those mechanisms. As such this incident simply cannot be taken as indicative of a systemic institutional racism among police.

Police procedure not followed. Philando Castile was driving with his girlfriend and her 4-year-old daughter. The cop pulled him over because he thought Castile looked like an armed robbery suspect. Castile correctly informed the officer that he was armed, and that he was reaching into his pocket for his ID. The cop fired seven shots at point blank range. 40 seconds had elapsed since the cop approached the car. Castile died with two bullets in his heart.


Well as they say, hindsight is 20/20, particularly when you're an armchair quarterback. But try putting yourself in that cop's position in that situation, and honestly ask yourself if you would think that you were in imminent danger of being shot.

Let's just list some of the "crimes" that warrant the death penalty (with no arrest, Miranda rights, phone call, attorney, trial by jury, or sentencing) when you're black in America, shall we?


Police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks, so by your logic most if not all of these "crimes" most likely warrant the death penalty when you're white in America too!

This recitation of the names of the murdered is a drop in the bucket.


I counted 45 names in your list. Cops kill a total of about 300 blacks every year, and 45 is 15% of 300. I wouldn't exactly call that a "drop in the bucket".

It's far too late to check yourself or your privilege;


Actually I did check my privilege, and it told me that stating facts is not racist. It also told me that the high proportion of black cops in heavily black areas makes it unlikely that cop-on-black killings are due to muh institutional racism.

you already wrecked yourself.


:lol:


These people are all murder victims, and they are why Black Lives Matter.


And what about the 2000+ blacks murdered by other blacks every year? What about the hundreds of black babies aborted every single day in the US? Do their black lives matter too? BLM doesn't seem to think so.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:but then you mix that with BS and artificial manipulation.


Where exactly have I done this?

Not fun for me to try and separate the chaff.


Correction: you can't separate the wheat and the chaff, because there's no chaff to separate.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:45 am

Kwan

The biggest thing holding back African Americans is their sad cultural legacy. That is definitely from whitey. Yes, it began with slavery, and was reinforced by the crappy civil rights discrimination. That leaves people with negativity that holds them back. Sure, they would be better off if they finished their education, and if the gals did not let themselves become pregnant. But those are symptoms of the greater malaise, which is the legacy of the crappy way they were treated. Your attitude, Kwan, is exactly the kind of thing that leads to ongoing harm. What is needed is a degree of understanding, and targeted assistance. For example, delivering appropriate extra education. Nor will the problem disappear overnight. This will take generations.

Sadly, Kwan, you are an example of the right wing American, with all the traits associated. Callousness. Cruelty. Lack of caring. Lack of generosity. Lack of understanding. Self righteousness.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:32 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Police procedure not followed. The cruiser hasn't even come to a stop, and the cop on the passenger side jumps out and shoots Tamir Rice without provocation. A 12-year-old boy playing with a toy gun. The cops did not stop a safe distance away, order him to drop the "gun," or make any attempt whatsoever to determine whether there was danger. They {!#%@} murdered a child. The murderer's testimony? "I had no choice." Yes, he {!#%@} well did have a choice. But he chose to murder a child.
"They" didn't kill a child, a particular officer did. That particular officer was forced to resign from his previous policing job because of psychological problems which he failed to disclose to the police department he was working for when he shot Tamir. In other words the police had mechanisms in place to remove and keep officers like him out of their ranks, and he cheated the system to get around those mechanisms. As such this incident simply cannot be taken as indicative of a systemic institutional racism among police.
Nice try, but no. The fact is that the Cleveland PD did not review the officer's previous personnel folder before hiring him, or they would have discovered he had been ruled "emotionally unstable and unfit for duty" and not hired him. The police department was at fault. Their "mechanism" did not work, because they neglected to do their job.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Police procedure not followed. Philando Castile was driving with his girlfriend and her 4-year-old daughter. The cop pulled him over because he thought Castile looked like an armed robbery suspect. Castile correctly informed the officer that he was armed, and that he was reaching into his pocket for his ID. The cop fired seven shots at point blank range. 40 seconds had elapsed since the cop approached the car. Castile died with two bullets in his heart.
Well as they say, hindsight is 20/20, particularly when you're an armchair quarterback. But try putting yourself in that cop's position in that situation, and honestly ask yourself if you would think that you were in imminent danger of being shot.
No, I wouldn't. Because black people don't frighten me like they do you. The smell like cannabis doesn't frighten me. Castile correctly informed them that he was armed. Correct police procedure demanded that the cops ask Castile where his weapon was, then secure it before going further.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Let's just list some of the "crimes" that warrant the death penalty (with no arrest, Miranda rights, phone call, attorney, trial by jury, or sentencing) when you're black in America, shall we?

Police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks, so by your logic most if not all of these "crimes" most likely warrant the death penalty when you're white in America too!
That's not how you use statistics to prove a point, Kwan. You say that police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks? But in the general population, there are more than five times as many whites as blacks. Clearly, cops are killing blacks as a rate disproportionate to the general population. And that, my friend, is how you use statistics to prove a point.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
This recitation of the names of the murdered is a drop in the bucket.
I counted 45 names in your list. Cops kill a total of about 300 blacks every year, and 45 is 15% of 300. I wouldn't exactly call that a "drop in the bucket".
Again, you've failed statistics. The 45 people I listed were not all killed in the same year.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
It's far too late to check yourself or your privilege;
Actually I did check my privilege, and it told me that stating facts is not racist. It also told me that the high proportion of black cops in heavily black areas makes it unlikely that cop-on-black killings are due to muh institutional racism.
If you were stating facts, I might agree. However, I've just proven your misuse of statistics twice. You play fast and loose with information, and certainly don't understand statistical analysis.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
These people are all murder victims, and they are why Black Lives Matter.
And what about the 2000+ blacks murdered by other blacks every year? What about the hundreds of black babies aborted every single day in the US? Do their black lives matter too? BLM doesn't seem to think so.
BLM doesn't "think" anything: It's an organization, not a person. And you don't have a clue what they advocate for...that much is clear.

Aborting an embryo that stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is not murder, nor is that embryo "a life." Your personal religious viewpoints do not qualify as legal statutes. cf. Roe v. Wade (1973), Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992), Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt (2016)
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:36 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:but then you mix that with BS and artificial manipulation.


Where exactly have I done this?

Not fun for me to try and separate the chaff.


Correction: you can't separate the wheat and the chaff, because there's no chaff to separate.

For example..... the very post you are responding to.

For multiple examples...your use of statistics noted by Nikki. When I see people do that, I start to ignore them. Its intentional behavior to mislead. All chaff...no wheat.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:55 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Sure, they would be better off if they finished their education
Would they? From the Brookings Institution:
...educational outcomes for minority children are much more a function of their unequal access to key educational resources, including skilled teachers and quality curriculum, than they are a function of race. In fact, the U.S. educational system is one of the most unequal in the industrialized world, and students routinely receive dramatically different learning opportunities based on their social status. In contrast to European and Asian nations that fund schools centrally and equally, the wealthiest 10 percent of U.S. school districts spend nearly 10 times more than the poorest 10 percent, and spending ratios of 3 to 1 are common within states. Despite stark differences in funding, teacher quality, curriculum, and class sizes, the prevailing view is that if students do not achieve, it is their own fault.

Recent analyses of data prepared for school finance cases in Alabama, New Jersey, New York, Louisiana, and Texas have found that on every tangible measure—from qualified teachers to curriculum offerings—schools serving greater numbers of students of color had significantly fewer resources than schools serving mostly white students.

Jonathan Kozol's 1991 Savage Inequalities described the striking differences between public schools serving students of color in urban settings and their suburban counterparts, which typically spend twice as much per student for populations with many fewer special needs. Contrast MacKenzie High School in Detroit, where word processing courses are taught without word processors because the school cannot afford them, or East St. Louis Senior High School, whose biology lab has no laboratory tables or usable dissecting kits, with nearby suburban schools where children enjoy a computer hookup to Dow Jones to study stock transactions and science laboratories that rival those in some industries. Or contrast Paterson, New Jersey, which could not afford the qualified teachers needed to offer foreign language courses to most high school students, with Princeton, where foreign languages begin in elementary school. LINK


Lance Kennedy wrote:and if the gals did not let themselves become pregnant.
"Did not let themselves?" Really, Lance? You've never heard of condoms and spermicide? Readily available...as opposed to all methods of birth control for women, which require a physician.
All adverse family planning outcomes - unintended pregnancy, unintended births, abortions and teen pregnancies - occur more commonly among minority and low socioeconomic status (SES) women.

The most recent of these surveys found that approximately 69% of pregnancies among Black women and 54% among Hispanics were unintended, compared with 40% among White women.23 Having low income and lower levels of education (the most commonly used measures of SES) were also associated with increased risk for unintended pregnancies, with 62% of pregnancies being unintended among those earning <100% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL), compared to 38% of pregnancies in those earning >200% of the FPL.

Access to family planning services is limited among vulnerable segments of our population, with important inequities across racial, ethnic and socioeconomic groups, as well as amongst immigrants to the United States. While changes in federal and state legislation, including the introduction of Medicaid expansions and Title X programs, have resulted in improved family planning services for women in low socioeconomic groups,72 access is still limited, and there remains a large demand for publicly funded contraception. Approximately half of all sexually active women of reproductive age are estimated to be in need of publicly funded services, and only 50% of them are served under the current system.72, 73 As low SES and minority women are disproportionately uninsured in the U.S, 74 and women with no insurance coverage are 30% less likely to use prescription contraception,75 lack of insurance coverage for contraception is a likely contributor to disparities in unintended pregnancy. LINK


While Kwan is not bothering to look at the issue of institutional racism at all, you yourself could dig deeper.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:29 am

Nikki

I think you kinda missed my point.
I was suggesting that, while those were issues, the matter went a lot deeper. Maybe I need to try harder to explain.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:42 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki

I think you kinda missed my point.
I was suggesting that, while those were issues, the matter went a lot deeper. Maybe I need to try harder to explain understand.


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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:20 pm

Nikki vs Lance:

1. Education. Should never be denied. Its the foundation for whatever comes next. Nikki ((ha, ha......just saw a movie moment with some guy explaining "mansplaining" to women...quite funny)) you are equating education with public or formal education. Many very successful people gain their education from parents, mentors, themselves, the public library, books in general. I recall quite fondly Dear Old Dad telling me when I came home from school complaining how dull the course work was and how stupid the teachers were: "Your job is to learn in spite of the teachers." He never was sympathetic..................... where did his apple fall?

2. Feminism: yes....its biology. Girls get preggers, its the girls responsibility to get whatever protection they deem necessary including "No glove, no love." Guys are too stupid to do it on their own and its the girls who most suffer on pregnancy. Simple reality should be informing your position more than it has. Its the same coin as once the girl is preggers, its her decision and hers alone as to whether or not to abort or bring to term. Boys who used birth control or did not do not have a say. Reality.......is a bitch.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:49 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Kwan

The biggest thing holding back African Americans is their sad cultural legacy.


No, it's their fixation on and voluntary perpetuation of their sad cultural legacy. Other groups have sad cultural legacies too; Jews suffered unimaginably at the hands of the Nazis (not to mention all the persecution they had to go through before that), the Chinese endured the horrors of Maoist rule, the South Koreans were oppressed and impoverished by Japanese imperialists for decades before being invaded by the North. Yet none of these groups is languishing on account of their tragic histories the way black Americans are. Why? Because they don't allow themselves to. Because they refuse to see themselves as victims.

That is definitely from whitey.


These days it's from left-wing whitey and left-wing blackey.


Yes, it began with slavery, and was reinforced by the crappy civil rights discrimination. That leaves people with negativity that holds them back.


Jews. 6 million of them. Brutally murdered. Millions more subjected to horrendous traumatic treatment. All this a mere seven decades ago. Their negativity about this is clearly not holding them back as a people today because they have made a choice to not be defined by it.

Sure, they would be better off if they finished their education, and if the gals did not let themselves become pregnant.


Yes, they most certainly would. And the great thing about it is that they are entirely free to make such decisions!

But those are symptoms of the greater malaise, which is the legacy of the crappy way they were treated.


No, they're a symptom of using the experiences of other people, many of whom died well before they were even born, as an excuse to not bother applying themselves to worthwhile pursuits.

Your attitude, Kwan, is exactly the kind of thing that leads to ongoing harm.


Wrong. The victimhood mentality that you are promoting is what leads to ongoing harm.

What is needed is a degree of understanding, and targeted assistance.


I shudder to think what sort of "targeted assistance" you have in mind...

Sadly, Kwan, you are an example of the right wing American, with all the traits associated. Callousness. Cruelty. Lack of caring. Lack of generosity. Lack of understanding. Self righteousness.


Those are all traits of the Right, are they Lance? So is that why communists and socialists have killed, oppressed and impoverished hundreds of millions of people over the last century??
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:09 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Those are all traits of the Right, are they Lance? So is that why communists and socialists have killed, oppressed and impoverished hundreds of millions of people over the last century??


Would that be the Nazi invasion and genocide in Communist Russia or just the allied invasion against Communism during the Russian civil war?

My cat knows more history than you do.
:lol:

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:12 am

On the Jews.

When my wife and I visited Berlin, we spent a few hours in the Jewish museum. I left depressed. I asked my wife why it was the whole thing was so bloody NEGATIVE. Why did they not celebrate their Jew culture ? So I do not think they have gotten over the holocaust.

In the same way, African Americans have not gotten over their history.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:18 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Police procedure not followed. The cruiser hasn't even come to a stop, and the cop on the passenger side jumps out and shoots Tamir Rice without provocation. A 12-year-old boy playing with a toy gun. The cops did not stop a safe distance away, order him to drop the "gun," or make any attempt whatsoever to determine whether there was danger. They {!#%@} murdered a child. The murderer's testimony? "I had no choice." Yes, he {!#%@} well did have a choice. But he chose to murder a child.
"They" didn't kill a child, a particular officer did. That particular officer was forced to resign from his previous policing job because of psychological problems which he failed to disclose to the police department he was working for when he shot Tamir. In other words the police had mechanisms in place to remove and keep officers like him out of their ranks, and he cheated the system to get around those mechanisms. As such this incident simply cannot be taken as indicative of a systemic institutional racism among police.
Nice try, but no. The fact is that the Cleveland PD did not review the officer's previous personnel folder before hiring him, or they would have discovered he had been ruled "emotionally unstable and unfit for duty" and not hired him. The police department was at fault. Their "mechanism" did not work, because they neglected to do their job.


Exactly, they neglected to follow their own procedures. Not because they were racist against blacks, not because they thought "let's hire this nutjob so he can gun down an innocent black kid", but because they were simply to lazy and careless to do their jobs properly. In other words, the case of Tamir is actually evidence against the claim that there is systemic anti-black racism among the police.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Police procedure not followed. Philando Castile was driving with his girlfriend and her 4-year-old daughter. The cop pulled him over because he thought Castile looked like an armed robbery suspect. Castile correctly informed the officer that he was armed, and that he was reaching into his pocket for his ID. The cop fired seven shots at point blank range. 40 seconds had elapsed since the cop approached the car. Castile died with two bullets in his heart.
Well as they say, hindsight is 20/20, particularly when you're an armchair quarterback. But try putting yourself in that cop's position in that situation, and honestly ask yourself if you would think that you were in imminent danger of being shot.
No, I wouldn't. Because black people don't frighten me like they do you. The smell like cannabis doesn't frighten me. Castile correctly informed them that he was armed. Correct police procedure demanded that the cops ask Castile where his weapon was, then secure it before going further.


Okay, so just to be clear:
  • You approach a suspect in his car
  • Upon reaching the car, you have reason to believe the suspect is under the influence of a mind-altering substance
  • The suspect then tells you that he has a gun
  • The suspect then proceeds to reach down for what appears to be a large object in his pocket

....and you reckon you wouldn't be the least bit worried that the suspect is going to pull out his gun and shoot you? Really?? I'll grant that the officer doesn't appear to have followed correct procedure, presumably because the situation evolved too quickly for him to hold his nerve and he went into fight-or-flight mode. But I simply do not see how the color of the suspects' skin would have any bearing or significance relative to the above points; if some drugged out person says they've got a gun and then reaches down in a way that looks like their going to grab it, then that's going to make you nervous regardless of what race they are.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Let's just list some of the "crimes" that warrant the death penalty (with no arrest, Miranda rights, phone call, attorney, trial by jury, or sentencing) when you're black in America, shall we?

Police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks, so by your logic most if not all of these "crimes" most likely warrant the death penalty when you're white in America too!
That's not how you use statistics to prove a point, Kwan. You say that police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks? But in the general population, there are more than five times as many whites as blacks. Clearly, cops are killing blacks as a rate disproportionate to the general population. And that, my friend, is how you use statistics to prove a point.


It doesn't matter if it's disproportionate relative to the general population, because the general population and the criminal population are not the same thing. There may be only 1/5th as many blacks as whites, but they commit about 40% of the nation's violent crime. In terms of how often police would be encountering violent black suspects relative to violent white suspects, the ratios of cop-on-black deaths to cop-on-white deaths actually shows a racial bias against whites (i.e. whites are getting killed by cops twice as often as blacks even though they commit only about 1.5 times as much violent crime).

And that, my friend, is how you use statistics to prove a point.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
This recitation of the names of the murdered is a drop in the bucket.
I counted 45 names in your list. Cops kill a total of about 300 blacks every year, and 45 is 15% of 300. I wouldn't exactly call that a "drop in the bucket".
Again, you've failed statistics. The 45 people I listed were not all killed in the same year.


I never said they were all killed in the same year. If you're going to factor in cop-on-black murders going all the way back to the year dot, then of course you can make it look like a drop in the bucket. But it doesn't really support your argument, because you can also do the same thing even more readily with victims of cop-on-white murders or black-on-black murders.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
It's far too late to check yourself or your privilege;
Actually I did check my privilege, and it told me that stating facts is not racist. It also told me that the high proportion of black cops in heavily black areas makes it unlikely that cop-on-black killings are due to muh institutional racism.
If you were stating facts, I might agree. However, I've just proven your misuse of statistics twice. You play fast and loose with information, and certainly don't understand statistical analysis.


All you've proven is that you are either disingenuous or don't understand statistics yourself.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
These people are all murder victims, and they are why Black Lives Matter.
And what about the 2000+ blacks murdered by other blacks every year? What about the hundreds of black babies aborted every single day in the US? Do their black lives matter too? BLM doesn't seem to think so.
BLM doesn't "think" anything: It's an organization, not a person.


:lol: Semantic nit-picking, is that the best you can do??

And you don't have a clue what they advocate for...that much is clear.


Clear based on what exactly?

Aborting an embryo that stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is not murder, nor is that embryo "a life."


Yes it is a life, it is growing and it is genetically human. The fact that it stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is completely irrelevant; all it means is that the embryo is dependent upon certain conditions to survive, just like all living organisms.

Your personal religious viewpoints do not qualify as legal statutes.


Neither do yours. More to the point, being legal does not make something ethical.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:23 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Education. Should never be denied. Its the foundation for whatever comes next. Nikki ((ha, ha......just saw a movie moment with some guy explaining "mansplaining" to women...quite funny)) you are equating education with public or formal education. Many very successful people gain their education from parents, mentors, themselves, the public library, books in general. I recall quite fondly Dear Old Dad telling me when I came home from school complaining how dull the course work was and how stupid the teachers were: "Your job is to learn in spite of the teachers." He never was sympathetic..................... where did his apple fall?
I believe you misunderstood my point. Please read that paragraph of my post again.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. Feminism: yes....its biology. Girls get preggers, its the girls responsibility to get whatever protection they deem necessary including "No glove, no love." Guys are too stupid to do it on their own and its the girls who most suffer on pregnancy. Simple reality should be informing your position more than it has. Its the same coin as once the girl is preggers, its her decision and hers alone as to whether or not to abort or bring to term. Boys who used birth control or did not do not have a say. Reality.......is a bitch.
Absolutely {!#%@} no, and it's not about feminism at all. Hearken to my logic...

Birth control takes a number of different forms.
All of these types of birth control require the woman too see a physician:
• Hormonal Implant (99% effective)
• Hormonal Patch (91% effective)
• Hormonal Pill (91% effective)
• Hormonal Shot (94% effective)
• Vaginal Ring (91% effective)
• Cervical Cap (71-86% effective)
• Diaphragm (86% effective)
• IUD (99% effective)
And, as I stated, clinics are few and far between in poor neighborhoods. Therein lies the problem.

All of these types of birth control are available without prescription at pharmacies:
• Spermicidal Sponge (76-88% effective, should be used in conjunction with a condom)
• Spermicide (71% effective, should be used in conjunction with a condom)
• Condom (82% effective, should be used in conjunction with spermicide)
Once the possibility of going to a clinic is taken out of the equation, the responsibility for preventing pregnancy becomes equal to both the man and woman involved. Men are not as stupid as you're pretending they are, and the idea of 18-22 years of child support should always be at the forefront of their minds...whether or not they have an erection. As you said, reality is a bitch.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:48 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:"They" didn't kill a child, a particular officer did. That particular officer was forced to resign from his previous policing job because of psychological problems which he failed to disclose to the police department he was working for when he shot Tamir. In other words the police had mechanisms in place to remove and keep officers like him out of their ranks, and he cheated the system to get around those mechanisms. As such this incident simply cannot be taken as indicative of a systemic institutional racism among police.
Nice try, but no. The fact is that the Cleveland PD did not review the officer's previous personnel folder before hiring him, or they would have discovered he had been ruled "emotionally unstable and unfit for duty" and not hired him. The police department was at fault. Their "mechanism" did not work, because they neglected to do their job.
Exactly, they neglected to follow their own procedures. Not because they were racist against blacks, not because they thought "let's hire this nutjob so he can gun down an innocent black kid", but because they were simply to lazy and careless to do their jobs properly. In other words, the case of Tamir is actually evidence against the claim that there is systemic anti-black racism among the police.
This doesn't prove your point; it proves mine. It doesn't matter whether they "had mechanisms in place" or not, when they clearly weren't utilizing those mechanisms.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Well as they say, hindsight is 20/20, particularly when you're an armchair quarterback. But try putting yourself in that cop's position in that situation, and honestly ask yourself if you would think that you were in imminent danger of being shot.
No, I wouldn't. Because black people don't frighten me like they do you. The smell like cannabis doesn't frighten me. Castile correctly informed them that he was armed. Correct police procedure demanded that the cops ask Castile where his weapon was, then secure it before going further.
Okay, so just to be clear:
  • You approach a suspect in his car
  • Upon reaching the car, you have reason to believe the suspect is under the influence of a mind-altering substance
  • The suspect then tells you that he has a gun
  • The suspect then proceeds to reach down for what appears to be a large object in his pocket
....and you reckon you wouldn't be the least bit worried that the suspect is going to pull out his gun and shoot you? Really?? I'll grant that the officer doesn't appear to have followed correct procedure, presumably because the situation evolved too quickly for him to hold his nerve and he went into fight-or-flight mode. But I simply do not see how the color of the suspects' skin would have any bearing or significance relative to the above points; if some drugged out person says they've got a gun and then reaches down in a way that looks like their going to grab it, then that's going to make you nervous regardless of what race they are.
Once again, you miss the point.
1. Cannabis is not a "mind-altering substance" that causes people to become suddenly violent for no apparent reason. Had the officer been properly trained, he would have known this fact.
2. The instant Castile said he was armed, the officer should have acted to secure the weapon. He didn't. Instead, he FUBARed the situation by doing nothing at all while Castile was attempting to retrieve his driver's license. Then, he flipped out, apparently believing Castile was driving around with a gun in his wallet. (Nowhere in the police report or video is a "large object" mentioned. You added that to try and prove your point.)

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Let's just list some of the "crimes" that warrant the death penalty (with no arrest, Miranda rights, phone call, attorney, trial by jury, or sentencing) when you're black in America, shall we?
Police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks, so by your logic most if not all of these "crimes" most likely warrant the death penalty when you're white in America too!
You didn't even look at the list; most of the activities these people were engaged in were not crimes. That was my point.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:That's not how you use statistics to prove a point, Kwan. You say that police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks? But in the general population, there are more than five times as many whites as blacks. Clearly, cops are killing blacks as a rate disproportionate to the general population. And that, my friend, is how you use statistics to prove a point.
It doesn't matter if it's disproportionate relative to the general population, because the general population and the criminal population are not the same thing. There may be only 1/5th as many blacks as whites, but they commit about 40% of the nation's violent crime. In terms of how often police would be encountering violent black suspects relative to violent white suspects, the ratios of cop-on-black deaths to cop-on-white deaths actually shows a racial bias against whites (i.e. whites are getting killed by cops twice as often as blacks even though they commit only about 1.5 times as much violent crime).
Again, you miss the point. Most of the black people getting murdered by cops are not criminals.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:This recitation of the names of the murdered is a drop in the bucket.
I counted 45 names in your list. Cops kill a total of about 300 blacks every year, and 45 is 15% of 300. I wouldn't exactly call that a "drop in the bucket".
Again, you've failed statistics. The 45 people I listed were not all killed in the same year.
I never said they were all killed in the same year.
Yes, you did. Right here.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:And you don't have a clue what they advocate for...that much is clear.
Clear based on what exactly?
Everything you've posted in this thread.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Aborting an embryo that stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is not murder, nor is that embryo "a life."
Yes it is a life, it is growing and it is genetically human. The fact that it stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is completely irrelevant; all it means is that the embryo is dependent upon certain conditions to survive, just like all living organisms.
Without the ridiculous amount of emotion you attach to the topic, the "certain conditions" upon which the embryo is dependent for its life make it a parasite, not a human being.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Your personal religious viewpoints do not qualify as legal statutes.
Neither do yours. More to the point, being legal does not make something ethical.
I don't have religious viewpoints. More to the point, I'm uninterested in yours being forced on me via legislation. Go read the Constitution.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:35 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:"They" didn't kill a child, a particular officer did. That particular officer was forced to resign from his previous policing job because of psychological problems which he failed to disclose to the police department he was working for when he shot Tamir. In other words the police had mechanisms in place to remove and keep officers like him out of their ranks, and he cheated the system to get around those mechanisms. As such this incident simply cannot be taken as indicative of a systemic institutional racism among police.
Nice try, but no. The fact is that the Cleveland PD did not review the officer's previous personnel folder before hiring him, or they would have discovered he had been ruled "emotionally unstable and unfit for duty" and not hired him. The police department was at fault. Their "mechanism" did not work, because they neglected to do their job.
Exactly, they neglected to follow their own procedures. Not because they were racist against blacks, not because they thought "let's hire this nutjob so he can gun down an innocent black kid", but because they were simply to lazy and careless to do their jobs properly. In other words, the case of Tamir is actually evidence against the claim that there is systemic anti-black racism among the police.
This doesn't prove your point; it proves mine. It doesn't matter whether they "had mechanisms in place" or not, when they clearly weren't utilizing those mechanisms.

It absolutely matters. If the police have systems in place to prevent people like that (allegedly) racist officer from being hired, then that directly contradicts the idea of their being “systemic” or “institutional” racism among the police!

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Well as they say, hindsight is 20/20, particularly when you're an armchair quarterback. But try putting yourself in that cop's position in that situation, and honestly ask yourself if you would think that you were in imminent danger of being shot.
No, I wouldn't. Because black people don't frighten me like they do you. The smell like cannabis doesn't frighten me. Castile correctly informed them that he was armed. Correct police procedure demanded that the cops ask Castile where his weapon was, then secure it before going further.
Okay, so just to be clear:
  • You approach a suspect in his car
  • Upon reaching the car, you have reason to believe the suspect is under the influence of a mind-altering substance
  • The suspect then tells you that he has a gun
  • The suspect then proceeds to reach down for what appears to be a large object in his pocket
....and you reckon you wouldn't be the least bit worried that the suspect is going to pull out his gun and shoot you? Really?? I'll grant that the officer doesn't appear to have followed correct procedure, presumably because the situation evolved too quickly for him to hold his nerve and he went into fight-or-flight mode. But I simply do not see how the color of the suspects' skin would have any bearing or significance relative to the above points; if some drugged out person says they've got a gun and then reaches down in a way that looks like their going to grab it, then that's going to make you nervous regardless of what race they are.
Once again, you miss the point.
1. Cannabis is not a "mind-altering substance" that causes people to become suddenly violent for no apparent reason. Had the officer been properly trained, he would have known this fact.
2. The instant Castile said he was armed, the officer should have acted to secure the weapon. He didn't. Instead, he FUBARed the situation by doing nothing at all while Castile was attempting to retrieve his driver's license. Then, he flipped out, apparently believing Castile was driving around with a gun in his wallet. (Nowhere in the police report or video is a "large object" mentioned. You added that to try and prove your point.)

1. Cannabis is a mild hallucinogen that can cause people to become paranoid in certain situations…for example, being pulled over by a police officer when you’re carrying a gun. Moreover someone in the officers’ situation is not going to be able to immediately tell if it’s natural cannabis or some weird synthetic version of cannabis, nor are they going to be able to rule out the possibility that the suspect is also under the influence of other drugs (people who use cannabis often use it in conjunction with other drugs).
2. He said he was armed and then started reaching down for something. Yes the officer quickly lost his nerve, but there is nothing to indicate that losing his nerve was a result of “institutional” police racism or even racism on his own part. Your claim about the report not mentioning a “large object” is disingenuous; that specific phrase might not have been used, but the officer was recorded on dashcam audio minutes after the shooting saying that Castile “had his, his(sic) grip a lot wider than a wallet”.

Incidentally, the name of the officer is Jeronimo Yanez. I find it curious that you haven’t mentioned his name thus far. Very curious indeed.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Let's just list some of the "crimes" that warrant the death penalty (with no arrest, Miranda rights, phone call, attorney, trial by jury, or sentencing) when you're black in America, shall we?
Police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks, so by your logic most if not all of these "crimes" most likely warrant the death penalty when you're white in America too!
You didn't even look at the list; most of the activities these people were engaged in were not crimes. That was my point.

Your point is irrelevant and completely misses *my* point. If police are killing almost twice as many whites as blacks, then chances are many of those white victims were also engaged in (seemingly) innocuous activities at the time too. But of course you haven’t bothered to look into that, because it would undermine your black victimhood narrative.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:That's not how you use statistics to prove a point, Kwan. You say that police kill almost twice as many whites as blacks? But in the general population, there are more than five times as many whites as blacks. Clearly, cops are killing blacks as a rate disproportionate to the general population. And that, my friend, is how you use statistics to prove a point.
It doesn't matter if it's disproportionate relative to the general population, because the general population and the criminal population are not the same thing. There may be only 1/5th as many blacks as whites, but they commit about 40% of the nation's violent crime. In terms of how often police would be encountering violent black suspects relative to violent white suspects, the ratios of cop-on-black deaths to cop-on-white deaths actually shows a racial bias against whites (i.e. whites are getting killed by cops twice as often as blacks even though they commit only about 1.5 times as much violent crime).
Again, you miss the point. Most of the black people getting murdered by cops are not criminals.

Then it’s reasonable to assume that most of the white people getting killed by police probably aren’t criminals either. The fact remains that US police find themselves dealing with black suspects in about 40% of violent criminal incidences and white suspects in about 60% of such incidences. This means cops are killing white suspects at a disproportionately high rate compared to black suspects relative to how often they encounter black vs white suspects of violent crimes. This anti-white bias is even more remarkable when you consider the prevalence of anti-cop sentiment in contemporary black culture.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:This recitation of the names of the murdered is a drop in the bucket.
I counted 45 names in your list. Cops kill a total of about 300 blacks every year, and 45 is 15% of 300. I wouldn't exactly call that a "drop in the bucket".
Again, you've failed statistics. The 45 people I listed were not all killed in the same year.
I never said they were all killed in the same year.
Yes, you did. Right here.

No I didn’t. Read it again, this time out loud and v e r y s l o w l y. Again, you can call 45 deaths a “drop in the bucket” if you define “the bucket” in an vague, arbitrary and ad-hoc manner like you have here. But if you do that it will render your claim effectively meaningless and intellectually dishonest (especially because it ignores many key contextual considerations such as the trend in killings over time and the comparable number of cop-on-white deaths).

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:And you don't have a clue what they advocate for...that much is clear.
Clear based on what exactly?
Everything you've posted in this thread.

:lol: Nice non-answer!

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Aborting an embryo that stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is not murder, nor is that embryo "a life."
Yes it is a life, it is growing and it is genetically human. The fact that it stands no chance of survival outside the uterus is completely irrelevant; all it means is that the embryo is dependent upon certain conditions to survive, just like all living organisms.
Without the ridiculous amount of emotion you attach to the topic, the "certain conditions" upon which the embryo is dependent for its life make it a parasite, not a human being.

What “ridiculous amount of emotion” are you talking about? A parasite is an organism that advances its own interests by disadvantaging a host organism without providing a benefit in return. A baby, whether pre- or post-natal, does not qualify as a parasite because it is the means through which the mother can pass her genes on to future generations. By your logic, infanticide of any dependent child is acceptable regardless of how old they are!

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Your personal religious viewpoints do not qualify as legal statutes.
Neither do yours. More to the point, being legal does not make something ethical.
I don't have religious viewpoints.

Everyone has religious viewpoints, regardless of how irreligious they may claim to be.

More to the point, I'm uninterested in yours being forced on me via legislation.

And I’m uninterested in yours being forced on defenceless unborn babies who have no say in whether they get to live or die.

Go read the Constitution.

I did, and I saw nothing about anyone having the right to kill an unborn child. And even if such a right were stipulated in the Constitution, the fact remains that legality does not make something ethical.
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