Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

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Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue May 23, 2017 9:46 pm

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 24, 2017 4:03 am

I don't have a problem with the metaphor that it's a lynching. But it isn't a lynching as said. It's a stabbing and probably a hate crime. A lynching is different, and I beg people to save the language because we may very well {!#%@} need it soon. Call people Nazis when they become {!#%@} nazis. Otherwise don't elevate them to the status. They're racist thugs and brigands. I'd quite possibly fight and die for the man being attacked, if I could. But {!#%@} calling these {!#%@} Nazis. They're wannabes at best, and petty whitetrash in reality. And a "lynching" ,in parlance, should be preserved for what it's meant to mean.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 pm

Sure, you can believe that Black Lives Matter matters based on one sensationalized story if you really want to. Or you could try actually looking at the facts and the bigger picture. Like I'm about to do now.

According to the FBI, in 2013:

  • The number of white Americans murdered by black Americans was more than double the number of blacks murdered by whites (409 vs 189).
  • White murderers killed black victims a mere 7% of the time (even though blacks make up 13% of the population), while black murderers killed white victims 15% of the time.
  • After accounting for size differences between the white and black populations (75% and 13% of the total US population respectively), a black person is over 12 times more likely to murder a white person than a white person is to murder a black person.

So, when do we start saying that White Lives Matter??
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Gord » Wed May 24, 2017 2:10 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Sure, you can believe that Black Lives Matter matters based on one sensationalized story if you really want to. Or you could try actually looking at the facts and the bigger picture.

I'm pretty sure we've all looked at the big picture before. It's not about one story, it's about many. Usually it's about the police shooting an unarmed black man.

Black Lives Matter isn't saying other lives don't matter. Its message is simple: Black Lives Matter. It shouldn't have to be followed by the word "too", so it isn't.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed May 24, 2017 2:55 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Sure, you can believe that Black Lives Matter matters based on one sensationalized story if you really want to. Or you could try actually looking at the facts and the bigger picture. Like I'm about to do now.

According to the FBI, in 2013:

  • The number of white Americans murdered by black Americans was more than double the number of blacks murdered by whites (409 vs 189).
  • White murderers killed black victims a mere 7% of the time (even though blacks make up 13% of the population), while black murderers killed white victims 15% of the time.
  • After accounting for size differences between the white and black populations (75% and 13% of the total US population respectively), a black person is over 12 times more likely to murder a white person than a white person is to murder a black person.

So, when do we start saying that White Lives Matter??


Of course, all lives matter. What is so hard to understand about the particular situation when our OFFICIALS CHARGED WITH PROTECTING THE PUBLIC are the ones targeting a racial minority? THAT calls for particular action. It cuts at the very basis of the social order. The kind of racial score-keeping you are doing is simply disgusting. Shall we say it doesn't matter if a Jew kills a German until at least 6 million Germans have been killed by Jews?

A crime of one citizen against another is just that (and, yes, I'm against "hate crime" laws that make the motivation of the criminal an issue). But police committing crimes against the public, and targeting people for ethnic or economic reasons is a major problem that needs to be addressed.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed May 24, 2017 3:47 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
  • The number of white Americans murdered by black Americans was more than double the number of blacks murdered by whites (409 vs 189).
  • White murderers killed black victims a mere 7% of the time (even though blacks make up 13% of the population), while black murderers killed white victims 15% of the time.
  • After accounting for size differences between the white and black populations (75% and 13% of the total US population respectively), a black person is over 12 times more likely to murder a white person than a white person is to murder a black person.


That's a stupid calculation.

If we were to assume that each murderer killed regardless of skin-color, then we would expect that Whites would killed 6x as often as Blacks, simply because of their higher proportion of the population.

But according to the statistic, Whites get only killed twice as often as Blacks by Blacks - which shows that most homicides by Black people have other Black people as victims .
But Whites kill three times as many Blacks as they are expected if race played no role in the murder.

What you do next is counting double, which makes no sense whatsoever.

In short: your data shows you are wrong: Black Lives (relative to their percentage of the population) are at a far greater risk than White Lives.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu May 25, 2017 12:14 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
  • The number of white Americans murdered by black Americans was more than double the number of blacks murdered by whites (409 vs 189).
  • White murderers killed black victims a mere 7% of the time (even though blacks make up 13% of the population), while black murderers killed white victims 15% of the time.
  • After accounting for size differences between the white and black populations (75% and 13% of the total US population respectively), a black person is over 12 times more likely to murder a white person than a white person is to murder a black person.


That's a stupid calculation.


There's nothing stupid about it.

If we were to assume that each murderer killed regardless of skin-color, then we would expect that Whites would killed 6x as often as Blacks, simply because of their higher proportion of the population.


Not really, because 1) people tend to live amongst, interact, and have disputes with members of their own race, and 2) cultural differences between racial groups may make members of one group disproportionately susceptible to being a victim and/or perpetrator of murder.

But according to the statistic, Whites get only killed twice as often as Blacks by Blacks -


Blacks kill more than twice as many whites as vice-versa, despite the fact that the black population is only about 1/6th of the white population. In other words, blacks are doing some serious per capita heavy lifting when it comes to committing black/white interracial murders. The statistics also show that the percentage of whites murdered by blacks is almost double the percentage of blacks murdered by whites (13.6% vs 7.6%)

which shows that most homicides by Black people have other Black people as victims .


The statistics show that although blacks kill other blacks 83% of the time, whites kill other whites 91% of the time. White murderers are even more likely to kill other whites than black murderers are to kill other blacks!

But Whites kill three times as many Blacks as they are expected if race played no role in the murder.


Whites murder other whites 91% of the time, and only murder blacks 7% of the time. How in the hell do you conclude from this that whites kill 3x as many blacks as they would if race weren't a factor??

What you do next is counting double, which makes no sense whatsoever.


Explain how I am double-counting.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu May 25, 2017 12:39 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Sure, you can believe that Black Lives Matter matters based on one sensationalized story if you really want to. Or you could try actually looking at the facts and the bigger picture. Like I'm about to do now.

According to the FBI, in 2013:

  • The number of white Americans murdered by black Americans was more than double the number of blacks murdered by whites (409 vs 189).
  • White murderers killed black victims a mere 7% of the time (even though blacks make up 13% of the population), while black murderers killed white victims 15% of the time.
  • After accounting for size differences between the white and black populations (75% and 13% of the total US population respectively), a black person is over 12 times more likely to murder a white person than a white person is to murder a black person.

So, when do we start saying that White Lives Matter??


Of course, all lives matter.


If all lives matter then why are you fixating on one particular case of white-on-black violence when the statistics show that more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa?

What is so hard to understand about the particular situation when our OFFICIALS CHARGED WITH PROTECTING THE PUBLIC are the ones targeting a racial minority?


Where in the article you linked did it say that the accused murderer was an official charged with protecting the public??

The kind of racial score-keeping you are doing is simply disgusting.


Oh, but it's perfectly okay when you do it! I do however beg your pardon for inconveniencing you with all these 'hate facts' :lol:

Shall we say it doesn't matter if a Jew kills a German until at least 6 million Germans have been killed by Jews?


That's not what I'm saying, and I'm pretty sure you know that. What I'm saying is that obsessing about Jew-on-German murder doesn't make a whole lot of sense when there are 6 million more cases of German-on-Jew murder. Do you get the difference?

But police committing crimes against the public, and targeting people for ethnic or economic reasons is a major problem that needs to be addressed.


Again, how does the article you linked to have anything to do with that?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu May 25, 2017 12:59 am

Gord wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Sure, you can believe that Black Lives Matter matters based on one sensationalized story if you really want to. Or you could try actually looking at the facts and the bigger picture.

I'm pretty sure we've all looked at the big picture before.


I'm pretty sure many here haven't.

It's not about one story, it's about many.


In other words, it's about statistically reliable data. Which is exactly what I posted in response to the OP.

Usually it's about the police shooting an unarmed black man.


And what does the data say? How often do police actually shoot black suspects who are genuinely unarmed and non-dangerous? What proportion of black suspects are shot by black police officers vs white police officers?

Black Lives Matter isn't saying other lives don't matter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xNxoeqf0Ws

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqQXmnMr_w8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvWPMmwG53E

Its message is simple: Black Lives Matter.


Except when it's black police officers. Or blacks murdered by other blacks. Or blacks who don't share their Far Left political views.

It shouldn't have to be followed by the word "too", so it isn't.


It is all too easy - especially in light of the rhetoric and actions of BLM members - to see an implied message to the effect of "..and other lives don't" or "...so long as they are politically useful to us".
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Gord » Thu May 25, 2017 1:50 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Gord wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Sure, you can believe that Black Lives Matter matters based on one sensationalized story if you really want to. Or you could try actually looking at the facts and the bigger picture.

I'm pretty sure we've all looked at the big picture before.

I'm pretty sure many here haven't.

Cool, cool.

It's not about one story, it's about many.

In other words, it's about statistically reliable data. Which is exactly what I posted in response to the OP.

No, it's about more than that. It's usually about the police shooting an unarmed black man.

Usually it's about the police shooting an unarmed black man.

And what does the data say? How often do police actually shoot black suspects who are genuinely unarmed and non-dangerous? What proportion of black suspects are shot by black police officers vs white police officers?

I don't know.


Yeah, people get mad. But that's not what Black Lives Matter is about. Sure, you get angry people involved in it, but that's because it's a charged issue.

Its message is simple: Black Lives Matter.

Except when it's black police officers. Or blacks murdered by other blacks. Or blacks who don't share their Far Left political views.

No, it's still a simple message: Black Lives Matter.

It shouldn't have to be followed by the word "too", so it isn't.

It is all too easy - especially in light of the rhetoric and actions of BLM members - to see an implied message to the effect of "..and other lives don't" or "...so long as they are politically useful to us".

It's easy if you've got a racist viewpoint, sure. Especially in the light of anti-BLM right-wing commentary.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu May 25, 2017 11:13 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Of course, all lives matter.


If all lives matter then why are you fixating on one particular case of white-on-black violence when the statistics show that more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa?


Because people aren't statistics. Has it escaped your notice that the US has an appalling record of mistreatment of black people in general? But if you want statistics, you might note that, by your own figures, white people outnumber black people by more than 6 to 1. A very small percent of the white population targeting black people can cause misery to a very large percent of the black population. And, if racial motivation is to be taken into account, just what motive do white people, in general have, for resenting black people? It's not hard to imagine LOTS of motivation for black people to resent white people.

What is so hard to understand about the particular situation when our OFFICIALS CHARGED WITH PROTECTING THE PUBLIC are the ones targeting a racial minority?


Where in the article you linked did it say that the accused murderer was an official charged with protecting the public??

If you read the article, you would have seen how official indifference allows attacks on black people to continue.

The kind of racial score-keeping you are doing is simply disgusting.


Oh, but it's perfectly okay when you do it! I do however beg your pardon for inconveniencing you with all these 'hate facts' :lol:


Your last comment was essentially rational, although ill-informed. This one is simply off the wall! Where did I "keep score"?

Shall we say it doesn't matter if a Jew kills a German until at least 6 million Germans have been killed by Jews?


That's not what I'm saying, and I'm pretty sure you know that. What I'm saying is that obsessing about Jew-on-German murder doesn't make a whole lot of sense when there are 6 million more cases of German-on-Jew murder. Do you get the difference?


I get it, but you don't. YOU are the one keeping score here. There's a middle ground between "obsessing" and "ignoring." Try to focus!

But police committing crimes against the public, and targeting people for ethnic or economic reasons is a major problem that needs to be addressed.


Again, how does the article you linked to have anything to do with that?


Read the article! It isn't just the police, even though they are the most visible.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 25, 2017 12:03 pm

No one says: "White Lives Don't Matter."

..................now........ your blacks are put on targets at police shooting ranges.

Black lives don't matter "too"...... they matter in opposition to the historical and current disregard they face.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri May 26, 2017 2:27 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Of course, all lives matter.


If all lives matter then why are you fixating on one particular case of white-on-black violence when the statistics show that more whites are killed by blacks than vice versa?


Because people aren't statistics.


I never said they were. So to repeat my question, why are you fixating on one particular case?

Has it escaped your notice that the US has an appalling record of mistreatment of black people in general?


Compared to who? Haiti? The Congo? Zimbabwe? Sudan? The Arabs (who were enslaving blacks long before the US came onto the scene, and treated them far more brutally)?

The US might have had an appalling record of mistreating blacks 100+ years ago, but then people of all races were generally treated like {!#%@} all throughout the world 100+ years ago. If you think that the black slaves sent to America were robbed of some blissful Eden-like existence in tropical Africa, then you're sorely mistaken!


But if you want statistics,


Yes, why wouldn't I? If we're going to have any hope of dealing with this issue in a sensible and scientific sound manner, then it is essential that we pay attention to the data.


you might note that, by your own figures, white people outnumber black people by more than 6 to 1. A very small percent of the white population targeting black people can cause misery to a very large percent of the black population.


I've already noted the white-black population disparity, it underlies the figures I gave above (it's more like 75 to 13 btw). I also noted that white people are responsible for about 7% of murders of blacks, so it would seem that your "very small percent of the white population targeting black people" is much larger than the actual percentage of white murderers targeting blacks.

And, if racial motivation is to be taken into account, just what motive do white people, in general have, for resenting black people? It's not hard to imagine LOTS of motivation for black people to resent white people.


Yeah, particularly if you brainwash black people with a fallacious and self-destructive racial victimhood mentality like BLM does.

What is so hard to understand about the particular situation when our OFFICIALS CHARGED WITH PROTECTING THE PUBLIC are the ones targeting a racial minority?


Where in the article you linked did it say that the accused murderer was an official charged with protecting the public??

If you read the article, you would have seen how official indifference allows attacks on black people to continue.


Hang on, are you accusing these officials of targeting a racial minority or merely being indifferent to them?? They're two very distinct contentions; the article you linked may support the latter, but it certainly doesn't support the former.

The kind of racial score-keeping you are doing is simply disgusting.


Oh, but it's perfectly okay when you do it! I do however beg your pardon for inconveniencing you with all these 'hate facts' :lol:


Your last comment was essentially rational, although ill-informed. This one is simply off the wall! Where did I "keep score"?


In the opening post of this thread.

Shall we say it doesn't matter if a Jew kills a German until at least 6 million Germans have been killed by Jews?


That's not what I'm saying, and I'm pretty sure you know that. What I'm saying is that obsessing about Jew-on-German murder doesn't make a whole lot of sense when there are 6 million more cases of German-on-Jew murder. Do you get the difference?


I get it, but you don't. YOU are the one keeping score here. There's a middle ground between "obsessing" and "ignoring." Try to focus!


We're both keeping score here, I'm just doing a better job of it. You know damn well that if the statistics were on your side you'd be shouting them from the rooftops. I'm not advocating for ignoring things, I'm advocating for putting them in their proper perspective.

But police committing crimes against the public, and targeting people for ethnic or economic reasons is a major problem that needs to be addressed.


On what basis do you make this claim? Certainly not on the basis of the story you linked (which, again, features no such activity by police). US police kill about 100 unarmed black suspects every year, which is equivalent to about 4% of the total number of black murder victims per year. If you break down those 100 or so deaths by the race of the cop involved, then the number of unarmed black suspects killed by non-black cops is going to be considerably less than even that number because areas with largely black populations tend to have largely black police departments.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri May 26, 2017 2:32 pm

It's hopeless. You want to talk about numbers, as if a person who murders 100 people is somehow better than a person who murders a 1000 people. You want to ignore the continuing effects of centuries of slavery and discrimination, with the disgusting and immoral argument that other people were worse. Have it your way. I'm done.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri May 26, 2017 2:46 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:It's hopeless. You want to talk about numbers, as if a person who murders 100 people is somehow better than a person who murders a 1000 people.


You think the families of those 900 extra victims wouldn't agree?!

You want to ignore the continuing effects of centuries of slavery and discrimination, with the disgusting and immoral argument that other people were worse.


What effects? Other than the psychological effects of wallowing in victimhood mentality and calling each other a word which they themselves say is the most horrible demeaning word imaginable, how are slavery and Jim Crow still holding blacks back today? How exactly are they forcing blacks to have 72% of their children out of wedlock?

Spare me your value judgements about "disgusting and immoral" arguments, you have no business getting on your high horse when you're the one who kicked this off by linking to a divisive race-baiting propaganda piece.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 31, 2017 4:10 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:It's hopeless. You want to talk about numbers, as if a person who murders 100 people is somehow better than a person who murders a 1000 people.


You think the families of those 900 extra victims wouldn't agree?!

You want to ignore the continuing effects of centuries of slavery and discrimination, with the disgusting and immoral argument that other people were worse.


What effects? Other than the psychological effects of wallowing in victimhood mentality and calling each other a word which they themselves say is the most horrible demeaning word imaginable, how are slavery and Jim Crow still holding blacks back today? How exactly are they forcing blacks to have 72% of their children out of wedlock?

Spare me your value judgements about "disgusting and immoral" arguments, you have no business getting on your high horse when you're the one who kicked this off by linking to a divisive race-baiting propaganda piece.



Do you feel superior, equal, or inferior to someone that belongs to a different , colloquially, race? And why?

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed May 31, 2017 4:46 am

fromthehills wrote:Do you feel superior, equal, or inferior to someone that belongs to a different , colloquially, race? And why?


Where is this question coming from?? I feel neither superior nor inferior to someone of a different race. I see myself as equal to a person of another race with respect to our human rights, but apart from that the question of whether or not I feel "equal" to them doesn't really make any sense.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 31, 2017 4:51 am

fromthehills wrote:Do you feel superior, equal, or inferior to someone that belongs to a different , colloquially, race? And why?
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote: Where is this question coming from??.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby fromthehills » Wed May 31, 2017 5:27 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Do you feel superior, equal, or inferior to someone that belongs to a different , colloquially, race? And why?


Where is this question coming from?? I feel neither superior nor inferior to someone of a different race. I see myself as equal to a person of another race with respect to our human rights, but apart from that the question of whether or not I feel "equal" to them doesn't really make any sense.


The question is coming from your own ostensible position. And I don't mean equal as in you can win a foot race, or win a beer chugging contest against others, I mean equal as in not above or below in inherent status, as you clarified. Good.

Can you clarify a couple more things? I agree white lives matter as well as black lives matter. Why do you find it so important to point out white lives matter, when we actually already understand this? But if we actually understood that black lives matter, there really wouldn't need to be an organization to say so. These folks are asking for help and recognition, they're not saying we don't matter, too.. empathy happen much where you are?

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 31, 2017 6:42 am

Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed May 31, 2017 9:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
fromthehills wrote:Do you feel superior, equal, or inferior to someone that belongs to a different , colloquially, race? And why?
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote: Where is this question coming from??.
Your own blog, you complete idiot. You are an anti Muslim extremist just like Jeremy Joseph Christian

Why did you pretend to be an Australian? Are you embarrassed about being an American?



Bravo!! I didn't know anything about VKTW and assumed I was discussing this with an American.

Actually, I made the case a little too narrow by merely citing the article from The Nation. What I find astonishing is the blithe assumption on the part of VKTW that 300 years of slavery followed by 150 years of vicious discrimination, terror attacks, and deprivation of civil rights is something black people should have simply gotten over by now. One has to be willfully blind or stupid to believe that. We need to be reminded that black lives matter, not just because we're seeing videos of police killing black men who were already subdued, but because the lives of very many people have been blighted in America simply because they were black. I know this because I was there, back in the 1940s, when my uneducated father was able to get a well-paying job in an oil refinery as a welder because he was allowed to belong to the Pipefitters' Union, which excluded black men. And because I walked a mile to get to an all-white school, when there was an all-black school only 100 yards from my home. That's just two examples.

I don't know about VKTW, but these days, I'm certainly embarrassed about being an American.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Wed May 31, 2017 2:08 pm

I really don't want to get involved, but here's an easily-digestible statistical breakdown, with pictures, I saw the other day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJMb1mz_o9A
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:50 am

fromthehills wrote:Can you clarify a couple more things? I agree white lives matter as well as black lives matter. Why do you find it so important to point out white lives matter, when we actually already understand this?


"We" evidently don't understand this, because "we" are neither concerned about nor - until I brought it up - even aware of the fact that whites are killed by blacks more often than blacks are killed by whites. The fact that "we" also tend to agree with BLM that blacks are killed by cops because of systemic white-on-black racism without even questioning how many are actually killed by black cops also suggests that "we" don't really understand it, as does the fact that a politician can get into all kinds of strife for daring to say "white lives matter, all lives matter".

But if we actually understood that black lives matter, there really wouldn't need to be an organization to say so.


"BLM exists because we don't understand that black lives matter, and we know that we don't understand that black lives matter because BLM exists!"

Folks are asking for help and recognition, they're not saying we don't matter, too.. empathy happen much where you are?


Yes, but it happens within context. BLM is not interested in reducing the horrendous black-on-black murder rate, it doesn't care about the disproportionate black-on-white murder rate, and it doesn't even care about making the elementary distinction between cop-on-black violence and white-on-black violence. BLM, in short, is race-baiting Far Left BS.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Why did you pretend to be an Australian? Are you embarrassed about being an American?
Upton_O_Goode wrote:Bravo!! I didn't know anything about VKTW and assumed I was discussing this with an American.
VTKW has an extremist anti-Muslim blog. You can read it by clicking the signature at the bottom of his posts.

He is posting on our forum to spread his extremist propaganda. The page on his blog concerning that, is

"The single most important task we need to accomplish is to educate our fellow citizens about Islam's prime directive."
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2011/04/t ... ssion.html

Basically VKTW is exactly the same as the neo-nazi extremists who spread their anti-Semitic propaganda in our anti-holocaust denial sub forum. They do this as some sort of psychological compensation for their own low self-esteem and self perceived inadequacies.

This is why VTKW pretended to be be an Australian in other forums, so as to pretend his was an outside objective commentator, rather than an American supporter of Jeremy Christian the anti-Muslim extremist , who murdered those two innocent Americans last week.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJXwcBmf9KQ

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:53 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:What I find astonishing is the blithe assumption on the part of VKTW that 300 years of slavery followed by 150 years of vicious discrimination, terror attacks, and deprivation of civil rights is something black people should have simply gotten over by now.


And what I find astonishing is your patronizing racist assumption that blacks can't be expected to move past it by now. The Chinese, the South Koreans, the Jews of Europe have all experienced terrible hardship in recent history, and yet none of these peoples are wallowing in impoverishment and misery today. Homosexuals in the West have faced severe discrimination even more recently than blacks, and yet you don't see homosexuals consistently scoring low on socio-economic indicators in 2017. The problem is not what happened to the ancestors of black people 50, 100 or 200 years ago, the problem is how both black and white people (particularly black and white leftists) relate to it.

We need to be reminded that black lives matter, not just because we're seeing videos of police killing black men who were already subdued, but because the lives of very many people have been blighted in America simply because they were black.


What we're not seeing (and you're certainly not showing) is how many of those "subdued" black men weren't really subdued when they were shot, how many genuinely subdued black men are being shot relative to the rate at which black men commit violent crimes, and how many of the cops shooting subdued black men are themselves black.

I know this because I was there, back in the 1940s, when my uneducated father was able to get a well-paying job in an oil refinery as a welder because he was allowed to belong to the Pipefitters' Union, which excluded black men. And because I walked a mile to get to an all-white school, when there was an all-black school only 100 yards from my home. That's just two examples.


Personal testimonies are not compelling evidence, especially when they relate to events that occurred 70+ years ago.

I don't know about VKTW, but these days, I'm certainly embarrassed about being an American.


Then you're welcome to move to Canada and stop being one!
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:57 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:And what I find astonishing is your patronizing racist assumption that blacks can't be expected to move past it by now. The Chinese, the South Koreans, the Jews of Europe have all experienced terrible hardship in recent history, and yet none of these peoples are wallowing in impoverishment and misery today. Homosexuals in the West have faced severe discrimination even more recently than blacks, and yet you don't see homosexuals consistently scoring low on socio-economic indicators in 2017. The problem is not what happened to the ancestors of black people 50, 100 or 200 years ago, the problem is how both black and white people (particularly black and white leftists) relate to it.


Pay attention people, There will be a quiz on this. How many of you remember the hundreds of slave ships that kidnapped hundreds of thousands of Chinese, South Koreans, and European Jews, brought them in chains at the bottom of those ships to America, and worked them like draft horses, beating them with whips if they didn't work, forbidding them to learn how to read and write, occasionally renting their labor out to others and pocketing the fee for that labor "just like a pirate," as Frederick Douglass so aptly put it? How many remember the lynchings and beatings? As for the homosexuals, they have always lived among us, closeted in most cases. You may recall that one of them was head of the FBI for many decades. Not being free to express one's sexuality is in no way comparable to being a slave.

You, VKTW, are willfully blind, if you think there are no lingering effects of these centuries of discrimination, if you think the minute discrimination stops, its victims will have the education and capital accumulation just to "move on."

But I'm not surprised at your blindness. When I cited an absurd example of the kind of racial scorekeeping you were doing, you took it seriously as an example of my own racial scorekeeping. Try to get some acquaintance with facts and elementary logic.

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
I don't know about VKTW, but these days, I'm certainly embarrassed about being an American.


Then you're welcome to move to Canada and stop being one!


I've got a better idea. YOU get out! This is my country and I have the right to discuss its faults.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:55 pm

Ultimately, it is all about culture. Every population group has its own specific culture, and aspects of culture tend to be very resistant to change. In Scotland, from where my ancestors came, the culture was tribal, with people giving loyalty to their clan leaders, and being hostile to other clans. Aggression was rife, and killings of non clan members also common. That was a few hundred years ago, and the Scots have mostly gotten over it, but they still have a 50% higher murder rate per capita than the English. Scots were brave and aggressive, and much in demand as soldiers for this reason.

In my country, the 'problem' group is our native people, the Maori. 54% of our prison population is Maori, while they make up only 12% of the adult population. Why is this? Simple reason. Tribal culture. 200 years ago, they all lived in tribes which had serious hostility to other tribes, and the aggression has passed down over time. I have spend time in Papua New Guinea, and the people there are worse. Their tribal origins are even more recent. The aggression trait is totally understandable in those situations, though reprehensible. However, the majority have managed to become good, decent, and law abiding people.

The black people of the USA, less than 200 years ago, we're slaves. They lived lives where they hated the white slave owner. (Wouldn't you?). They became free, but poverty stricken, and many had to steal to live. This is their cultural background, and they have not had time to "get over it". I think it is bloody marvelous that so few of them are criminal!

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:02 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote: I've got a better idea. YOU get out! This is my country and I have the right to discuss its faults.
Have some fun with VKTW. He's quite mad. :D

Ask him if he is an Australian, interfering in USA politics, or an American who pretends to be an Australian, as he is embarrassed to be be American. He will refuse to answer.

Then read his insane posts about supporting Trump's USA first policies and ask him why an Australian would do that?
So why did VKTW pretend to be an Australian and use the Australian flag on his posts? You will receive yet another insane response from VKTW avoiding the question.
:D

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:00 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote: I've got a better idea. YOU get out! This is my country and I have the right to discuss its faults.
Have some fun with VKTW. He's quite mad. :D

Ask him if he is an Australian, interfering in USA politics, or an American who pretends to be an Australian, as he is embarrassed to be be American. He will refuse to answer.

Then read his insane posts about supporting Trump's USA first policies and ask him why an Australian would do that?
So why did VKTW pretend to be an Australian and use the Australian flag on his posts? You will receive yet another insane response from VKTW avoiding the question.
:D


I figure VKTW as intelligent, but blinded by his prejudices. He writes English acceptably, but grasps at any straw man (mixed metaphor intentional) argument that will enable him to believe he hasn't been refuted. Such types are incorrigible. I plan to ignore him in the future. He can post as much as he likes and believe he has been left master of the field. Refuting him is like swatting flies. Sometimes the effort is more than it is worth.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:59 pm

Lance: "and the aggression has passed down over time."

Upton: "Such types are incorrigible."


Unreasonable racial hatred has been bred over some time in the US, too. Add sociopathy as an inherited trait...
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:48 pm

The real problem with BLM is it's been co-opted by anarchists. BLM would better serve themselves campaigning for better education and other social services in the poor areas. Not making it worse.

It reminds me of What Would Jesus Do? Well, if Jesus is hungry and finds a fig tree that isn't in season so has no fruit, he kills it and goes on a rampage destroying a temple. I mean, that just ruins it for everyone. Wouldn't it be a much better story if he got a bunch of guys together to put some water and fertiliser on it, and it miraculously burst into ripe fruit for all the hungry travellers that come after him?

I dunno. I don't speak with unquestionable authority. But it seems to me like a more favourable outcome, and would make a great Snickers ad.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:58 pm

Black lives certainly do matter. It is also true that African Americans have a higher crime rate than whites. So what? They are still human and they still matter. I believe that the reason they have a higher crime rate is the way they were treated in the past, meaning a crappie cultural background, and as I said, culture has strong resistance to change. It will, of course, change in time, given enough time, and most African Americans are already as law abiding as whites.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:15 pm

Again, from the holy books, how many sons must suffer the sins of the fathers? Seven generations? Hasn't the warranty period expired yet?
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:49 pm

MM

It has nothing to do with that.
Culture is persistent. It carries down the generations. I do not know how long, but I suspect it is a variable. My guess is 200 to 300 years, but what do I know? We are all slaves to our cultural background, even when we do not recognize that fact.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:07 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:MM

It has nothing to do with that.
Culture is persistent. It carries down the generations. I do not know how long, but I suspect it is a variable. My guess is 200 to 300 years, but what do I know? We are all slaves to our cultural background, even when we do not recognize that fact.

I've some Scottish heritage, perhaps more than you. State your claim against my clan, and we'll duel at dawn. Actually, dusk suits me better. Is this a duel to the death, blood, or DNA? Or who looks better in a plaid skirt? Instagram.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:15 pm

Beware, MM, I have some Irish blood also!

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:26 pm

Fine. We shall battle-out our ancestral differences in plaid skirts at dusk on the field of Instagram.

I'd still like to know what we're fighting for...
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:35 pm

A true Scott never asks why.

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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:13 am

Ach, aye. We Scots fought those Roman bastards tooth and nail, till they had to build a wall to stop us from defending ourselves from them raping and pillaging our land.
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Re: Why "Black Lives Matter" Matters

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:29 am

Murdering Italians is totally justified.
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