It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:"The Nazis came very close to fulfilling their plan to exterminate an entire people. They were defeated in this regard, not because people awoke to the evil of their purposes, but because the national interests of the Allies themselves were threatened."

Joshua Chasan, "Religion and the Holocaust" in: The Holocaust: Introductory Essays (1996).

Ummm...assuming the people were the Jews....what was the "national interests of the Allies" other than to win WW2? I've read criticism that the Allies could have saved 1000's of Jews had they bombed the rail system more or even the camps themselves, instead of focusing on military targets.


It was decidedly against the best interests of the allies to have the Germans lording it over the whole European continent, as they were doing in 1940 and 1941. It was very bad for business, among other disadvantages. The threats to the Jews, Roma, homosexuals, mentally impaired, and others were, sadly, not seen as inimical to the interests of the USSR, Britain, and the USA.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:27 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:With Kennedy retiring we are screwed.


I fear we are living through the American version of "I, Claudius" and have reached the reign of Caligula. Things got a little better after him, but the Roman Republic remained obstinately dead, as it had been since the Battle of Actium in 31 BCE. There were some benign despots in there for a few centuries, but they were despots nevertheless, and very few had any real public spirit. It was mostly pure greed and lust for power, until the structure finally shattered. (True, it lingered in the East for another thousand years, but got continually more brittle and finally disappeared.) I don't expect it will take that long for America to decline. Much depends on how quickly Trump ruins the country. But if the Republicans succeed in destroying the world economy through climate change, they may take the rest of the world with us.

Meanwhile, we just have to expect that things will get worse rather than better. The Supreme Court can be reined in by Congress, provided we can get a Democratic majority. Otherwise, I fear abortion and same-sex marriage are about to be abolished as quickly as the Evangelical nutcases can arrange it. Beyond that, the Supreme Court can't do much harm (although that's more than enough!). The harm will show up as these right-wing judges linger and rule unconstitutional all the attempts to undo the damage done by Trump and the GOP. But before that can happen, the Democrats have to win, and that's by no means guaranteed.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:53 pm

1. Worse before better////I agree.

2. Reigned in? What could you mean by THAT? ….and what super majority to get there? What specifically do you think Congress could/would do?

3. Otherwise, I fear abortion and same-sex marriage are about to be abolished /// No. Abortion returned to a States Rights issue....so you can still get your vacation abortion. Same Sex? Hardly matters. Everything the lbqt etc want can be done by private contract. More steps, no longer a "right" but the substance still allowed.

4. Beyond that, the Supreme Court can't do much harm ////HOLY CRAP THAT IS SHORT SIGHTED. Corporations to be given more rights and less duties. Money in Politics more than now. Privatizing Everything...for profit prisons, education (not to be redundant), Workers Rights/Safety, Tax Codes, Monopolization, Voter Suppression.....the list of horrors is endless.


Trump is right about one thing. I am already tired of his winning...………...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:58 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:I fear we are living through the American version of "I, Claudius" ......


I was thinking more the second book Claudius the God. At the end of that novel, Claudius aspires to bring back the old Roman republic by bringing in the worst aspects of the new Empirical political system. His hope was that the plebiscite would see how bad things became and return government to the senate. It didn't work.

James Comey sort of says the same thing. He says that the population of the USA will always eventually see through the damage in the long run, and unlike ancient Rome, the USA's current emperor can only last for 8 years. I hope he is right.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:38 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Worse before better////I agree.

2. Reigned in? What could you mean by THAT? ….and what super majority to get there? What specifically do you think Congress could/would do?



Congress can pass clear, unambiguous laws or Constitutional Amendments (subject to approval by the states) that even ideologues as bad as Scalia can't misinterpret.


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
3. Otherwise, I fear abortion and same-sex marriage are about to be abolished /// No. Abortion returned to a States Rights issue....so you can still get your vacation abortion. Same Sex? Hardly matters. Everything the lbqt etc want can be done by private contract. More steps, no longer a "right" but the substance still allowed.


Not so! Private contracts are not portable from state to state, no matter what the Constitution says about "full faith and credit." You get practiced morons like the thrice-divorced clerk in Kentucky who refused to issue marriage licenses for same-sex couples. You'd have to fight every one of those battles over again. Next-of-kin takes precedence over civil unions. The religious right is pushing for a NATIONAL ban on abortions, and no one in the ruling GOP dares stand up to them. It was only a few decades ago that EVERY state had restrictions on abortion that caused women to go to the UK to get them (as Irish women had to do even more recently). And Social Security spousal and survivor benefits are a federal matter. Same-sex marriage can't be preserved through private contracts, because no such contract can obligate the Federal Government to pay spousal benefits.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:4. Beyond that, the Supreme Court can't do much harm ////HOLY CRAP THAT IS SHORT SIGHTED. Corporations to be given more rights and less duties. Money in Politics more than now. Privatizing Everything...for profit prisons, education (not to be redundant), Workers Rights/Safety, Tax Codes, Monopolization, Voter Suppression.....the list of horrors is endless.


I don't see how they can get much worse in this regard than they already are. We've essentially made the whole country into a private club for the rich, as Thoreau predicted when he said, "Walking on God's earth will be construed as trespassing on some gentleman's property." What the Supreme Court can't do, however, is INITIATE these things. Somebody has to bring suit all the way through the lower courts. Of course, they'll try, as they did when they got the Court to sabotage the New Deal.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Trump is right about one thing. I am already tired of his winning...………...


So am I. He likes chaos. Right now, he's got the markets shaking and threatening a recession. Don't believe it. He's not THAT stupid, although he is very stupid. When his handlers and keepers tie him down and threaten him with loss of his Fox News viewing privileges, he'll declare victory in the tariff war and capitulate. And the markets will respond with renewed confidence. (OK, I'm on record here. Just watch and see how awful a prophet I typically am.) :D
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:I fear we are living through the American version of "I, Claudius" ......


I was thinking more the second book Claudius the God. At the end of that novel, Claudius aspires to bring back the old Roman republic by bringing in the worst aspects of the new Empirical political system. His hope was that the plebiscite would see how bad things became and return government to the senate. It didn't work.

James Comey sort of says the same thing. He says that the population of the USA will always eventually see through the damage in the long run, and unlike ancient Rome, the USA's current emperor can only last for 8 years. I hope he is right. Claudius the god.jpg


You are right about Claudius. Americans have a huge job to do, clearing out the thugs they have elected to power. The world has a right to expect this of us. Other countries can help (I suggest very targeted boycotts of goods produced in Trump Country), but it is most important for Americans to purge themselves. I'm not optimistic about the possibility of doing this. As I've said before (here or elsewhere, I forget), in every country you'll find about 60% of the people are more or less reality-based and able to see someone else's point of view and compromise. The other 40% easily believe any insane conspiracy theory that makes them happy. What has happened in the US is that a charismatic idiot named Reagan convinced Americans that they were being taken advantage of by "welfare queens." From his cowboy approach to economics and the environment, we were barely rescued in 1992.

But 1992 also brought the first of the horde of right-wing commentators, in the person of Rash Limpjaw, who whipped up enough hatred of Clinton to get Republican control of the House in 1994. Limpjaw then used his influence over the GOP to denounce and ostracize any Republican who even suggested the slightest compromise with the Democrats. Thus a tradition of governing through compromise (which is the only possible way of governing in a democracy without turning it into a dictatorship) going back centuries was killed, and its corpse was left to rot, as commentators even crazier than Limpjaw, such as Glenn Beck and Michael Savage took to the airwaves to solidify the racist kleptocrats who now rule over us with Trump as their mindless sock puppet.


We saw in the 1930s what that can mean when combined with loopholes in the constitution (every constitution has some) and political blunders on the part of the rational 60%. It's not encouraging when you think that so many other countries that took the US Constitution as a model wound up as dictatorships.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:02 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:...He likes chaos. Right now, he's got the markets shaking and threatening a recession. Don't believe it. He's not THAT stupid, although he is very stupid. When his handlers and keepers tie him down and threaten him with loss of his Fox News viewing privileges, he'll declare victory in the tariff war and capitulate. And the markets will respond with renewed confidence. (OK, I'm on record here. Just watch and see how awful a prophet I typically am.) :D

I'm horrible at this stuff too. I hope you're right, but my personal feelings are that Trump will seek to destroy whatever he can't control, so he'll leave NAFTA if he can't get his own way, then blame everyone else for it.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:42 pm

Of course he will blame Obama first...

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:59 pm

...............and where do the already too rich go when "markets crash?"............real estate.

Markets.

Totally Manipulated. All kinds of tariffs or taxes or dues or fees all over the place. Trump is correct when he says the USA is taken advantage of. That was the plan after all expressly stated. I remember when NAFTA was being debated. "Trade will be good for Mexico providing their workers enough opportunity that they will stop illegally entering the USA." I recall at the time: "Oh Dear!.....that ain't right."

Markets. Just another lie for the already too rich to manipulate and skim. WHAT? You think money will leave a field unplowed????

.................Just look.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:32 pm

The signs are there, though still rather faint. The trade war is starting to cause real pain in the US. That's why I think Trump will soon call it off, while proclaiming that he won it.

I'm going to follow today's election in Mexico with great interest. It looks like a real leftist is going to win on a law-and-order platform. How's that for casting against type? Trump is eventually going to sink into the swamp that he hasn't been draining, and Mexico is going to be one of the reasons. Canada will be another, Europe a third. China and Russia will continue to play nice with him, but will not have Trump's best interest at heart. Where, oh where will he turn for solace?

Meanwhile, all reports are that NK is increasing its nuclear stockpile, not getting ready to give it up. Eventually, that fact will penetrate even the thick skulls of Trump's supporters in the US. Not that they'll care. It's all fine with them.

And, adding to my gloom as the patriotic holiday approaches, it seems Trump will soon have a compliant Supreme Court. If he really gets that, we'll find ourselves living the way the vast majority of the human race has always done: Under the arbitrary rule of an autocrat or an oligarchy. But never sell hope short. FDR appointed a notorious racist, Hugo Black, to the Supreme Court, and he wound up voting with the liberals. Even the retiring Justice Kennedy was a Reagan appointee, and on a few occasions he went off the reservation. (Not on enough occasions, in my opinion.)

What's being made of the fact that Mr. Justice Kennedy's son worked at Deutsche Bank when it gave a billion-dollar loan to Donald Trump after the 2008 crash? I haven't heard this issue addressed on NPR. Is there any connection there that might account for Trump's lavish praise of Kennedy (or, for that matter, Kennedy's timely retirement)? Was it actually Kennedy he was praising? What he said was "Anthony....um...oh, you know who I mean."

Meanwhile, Susan Collins vows to vote against any nominee who will vote to overturn Roe v. Wade, she says. Oh really? Does she think we don't know how easy it is for a candidate to hint that he'd vote not to overturn, and then, once on the Court, vote to overturn? What in the world makes her think she can foresee how a candidate would vote on any particular issue? More likely, she thinks her constituents are stupid enough to fall for the smoke-and-mirrors show she's putting on for them, exactly as she did with the tax bill.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:08 pm

Typical theocratic claptrap analysis of other countries. I have a better question: Why does our constitution fail in our country?

I've earnestly tried to get a full list of countries that have tried constitutions based on the US model, and I haven't succeeded. There are degrees of similarity, with the clearest examples being failed states that were associated with the US, such as Liberia and the Philippines. The largest number is provided by the US states themselves, most of whose constitutions repeat the US Constitution and embrace a lot of its undemocratic aspects, such as having a superfluous legislative body where representation was (originally) not based on population. (Congratulations to Nebraska for being the only state with a unicameral legislature!) I can't find any spectacular successes among them, although they do manage to function, because most of them have fairly homogeneous populations. The Confederate Constitution imitated the US Constitution rather....I hesitate to say it....slavishly, departing from it only in the many places where it put in ironclad guarantees of slavery as a perpetual institution. (So much for the arguments of unreconstructed Rebels, who insist that the Confederacy would itself have abolished slavery within a few decades.)

But we need to sic bobbo on the people who answer the question. I Googled "constitutions modeled on the us constitution" and found no direct answer to this question. Instead, I found a lot of essays talking about the declining influence of the US constitution. Here's a sample. (If you click on the link in the first reply, you find that it doesn't begin to answer the question that was posed.)

C'mon bobbo, look this up and pin those bastards down. Make them answer the question they were asked instead of blathering on about questions that were not asked.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:46 pm

I can't pin anyone down if no one responds......so, I'll go to the switch at the offshoot. The link re Ginsberg comment is really about having individual rights in the foundational document rather than a US style constitution, and our constitution doesn't have such rights....those are in the Bill of Rights. Perhaps just a quibble? What aspect of the USC is thought so unique as to warrant the question, whatever it is??? Representational gubment, bicameral houses, 3 branches, lots of ways to characterize our difference from parliamentary forums of chicanery.

The checks and balances so often mentioned are an artifact of history....that USA was not one country but rather the amalgam of 13 different independent colonies/states/areas. That is very unique....or...I think of High School History and how the many and varied states of Germany came together...I forget if I ever knew: mostly by conquest? So, very different. ===>all having Nada to do with the "independent nature of colonial people." People are people. Our natures all more the same than different. Its accidental contextual circumstances that drive national differences.

But NO ONE should care how or why or to the degree that the US Const "works" in other countries or not. OBVIOUSLY: other countries work quite well, in many areas much better thanthe USA, on the governing documents/philosophies they have. Note the slide in satisfaction or mobility that the USA has been experiencing in recent years. Const. is mostly the same. "What Happened?"
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:39 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Where, oh where will he turn for solace?

Oh, I think we all know!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AUXpnB065o
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:People are people.

I'm not.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:But NO ONE should care how or why or to the degree that the US Const "works" in other countries or not. OBVIOUSLY: other countries work quite well, in many areas much better thanthe USA, on the governing documents/philosophies they have. Note the slide in satisfaction or mobility that the USA has been experiencing in recent years. Const. is mostly the same. "What Happened?"


Yes indeed. That is precisely the question: Why doesn't the Constitution "work" in the US? The theocratic idiot I linked to ascribes its former success to the influence of Christianity (and, I suspect, its present failure to the decline of Christian belief). Well, Islamic states like Saudia Arabia also exhibit great stability, and just try to proselytize for Christianity there!

The simple, obvious, answer is that all 13 colonies (and the independent Republic of Vermont) all had a common English background. Their forms of Christianity were very different, and even hostile: Congregationalist/Puritan Calvinists in New England, Quakers in Pennsylvania, Catholics in Maryland, Church of England in the South. It wasn't Christianity that made the place work. It was the ability to divide up the geography so people could have it their way. What has kept it working (except when it didn't, between 1850 and 1870) is a spirit of compromise, which the Republicans led by Rash Limpjaw destroyed 25 years ago. We are living in the wreckage of that catastrophe.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:21 am

Nice analysis of Trump's use of language here.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:51 pm

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:People are people.

I'm not.

....but shepherd are people too. Christ was a shepherd after all, if not THE Shepherd.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:57 pm

Saying the Const or anything else "doesn't work" is simply too vague and therefore meaningless. If you mean it only works for the top 1% and no one else: I'll agree as the issue is somewhat corralled, although the 1% could also agree thinking they require MORE if America is to be great again.

ON EVERY SUBJECT THERE IS: there are winners and losers.....and working remains meaningless.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:42 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:...the great Christian Jeff Sessions and Sarah Hickabee add blasphemy, citing a note of St. Paul, written to keep the tiny sect of Christians safe from the brutal Roman Empire, in justification of this abomination, thereby making the Trump Administration the new brutal empire.

On that note, misterdeity asks of Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, "How {!#%@} stupid do you have to be?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86kvZakf40c
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:16 pm

Gord wrote:On that note, misterdeity asks of Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, "How {!#%@} stupid do you have to be?"


Sessions isn't smart enough to figure out the answer to that.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:ON EVERY SUBJECT THERE IS: there are winners and losers.....and working remains meaningless.


Tell that to the refugees that Sessions has now forbidden to work.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:03 am

Creative way to protest the Trump/Sessions/Miller policies, but they could have made it better. They should have locked the baby in a separate cage.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:05 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:ON EVERY SUBJECT THERE IS: there are winners and losers.....and working remains meaningless.


Tell that to the refugees that Sessions has now forbidden to work.

Upton: I don't understand your complaint. Under the Sessions Program, the illegals and asylum seekers are losers and the racist American Firsters are the winners. THERE ARE ALWAYS WINNERS AND LOSERS. Simple concept. ….. and yes: if you want to stop USA from being a target for immigration, you take away the desireability of the place as in ruining the entire economy for citizens and illegals as well. Bit of an overshoot there......much better would be warning, fines, prison for the employers who refuse to pay a living wage. See that???? The low wage paying employers who are not prosecuted are winners, and working people are the losers. THERE ARE ALWAYS WINNERS AND LOSERS.

Prove me wrong..................
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:ON EVERY SUBJECT THERE IS: there are winners and losers.....and working remains meaningless.


Tell that to the refugees that Sessions has now forbidden to work.

Upton: I don't understand your complaint. Under the Sessions Program, the illegals and asylum seekers are losers and the racist American Firsters are the winners. THERE ARE ALWAYS WINNERS AND LOSERS. Simple concept. ….. and yes: if you want to stop USA from being a target for immigration, you take away the desireability of the place as in ruining the entire economy for citizens and illegals as well. Bit of an overshoot there......much better would be warning, fines, prison for the employers who refuse to pay a living wage. See that???? The low wage paying employers who are not prosecuted are winners, and working people are the losers. THERE ARE ALWAYS WINNERS AND LOSERS.

Prove me wrong..................


Sorry, I should have quoted only the last four words of your post. That's all I was responding to (and I do realize that I was changing the meaning of "working" in my reply).
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:09 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:ON EVERY SUBJECT THERE IS: there are winners and losers.....and working remains meaningless.


Tell that to the refugees that Sessions has now forbidden to work.

Rereading...…..best I can tell, you are taking "working" totally out of context. Originally it was about the constitution. If you want to totally switch meaning without regard to the context.....then if you mean the illegals can't get a job or "work" yes that is exactly what Sessions is telling them just as we all should. Its against the law. You don't like that? Change the law.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Rereading...…..best I can tell, you are taking "working" totally out of context.


You bet I was taking it out of context. That was precisely the content of my previous post.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:29 pm

A joke going around Moscow during The Great Terror:

The NKVD knocks on a door.
The inhabitants ask who it is.
“NKVD.”
“You’ve got the wrong apartment. The Communists are upstairs.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:52 pm

Indeed - Drain the swamp!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:08 pm

Hopefully Rep. Jordan is next. :evil:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:49 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Rereading...…..best I can tell, you are taking "working" totally out of context.


You bet I was taking it out of context. That was precisely the content of my previous post.

Amusing you are wrong in both contexts? Got a third????
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:49 am

Daily Kos: Trump Trash Telz it like it iz.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Aztexan » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:30 am

I was going to share this article earlier but had some things to do and wasn't able to.
Thanks for sharing.
trump is Putin's bitch

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:33 am

Why do I feel like a Frenchman on September 1, 1939? Could it be that the President has finally put a match to the powder keg? I've been betting all along that his real goal is to negotiate bilateral trade agreements more favorable to the US and that he wouldn't let things get out of control. But it looks like they are spinning that way. On the surface, it looks like the US has the advantage vis-à-vis China, in terms of the actual significance of mutual trade to each country. But on the other hand, China can take a beating for a long time, since it holds a considerable number of US dollars and doesn't need to earn more of them for a while.

So, relax and enjoy the show. :pc:
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:42 am

JO 753 wrote:Daily Kos: Trump Trash Telz it like it iz.



Thanks for that. Red meat for Trump-haters. It doesn't apply to all Trump supporters, but it's the kind of thing they all gobble up eagerly when Trump dishes it out about his favorite scapegoats. So, it's a fair comment and serves them right if they're offended.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:45 am

Did anybody notice that Pompeo's trip to NK is an emergency relief effort? The evidence that Trump had achieved nothing concrete in Singapore just got to be too overwhelming for even this administration to ignore. So, Pompeo's schedule was abruptly changed. He's off now and has to bring home something that can be spun as "progress" by the White House spin doctors. That shouldn't be too difficult. It's clear that he is doing his best to set the bar as low as possible. According to CBS News:


Mike Pompeo wrote:On this trip, I’m seeking to fill in some details on those commitments and continue the momentum toward implementation of what the two leaders promised each other and the world. I expect that [North Korea] is ready to do the same.



I'm pretty sure I myself could tell the administration how to announce proudly that Pompeo's mission was a success, because it "continued the momentum toward implementation....". And it never hurts to report on what you know the North Koreans are thinking. They probably won't deny that that's what they are thinking.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:47 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Creative way to protest the Trump/Sessions/Miller policies, but they could have made it better. They should have locked the baby in a separate cage.


My daughter, who lives in Indiana, knows the people who put up this display. She tells me they had considered doing exactly what I suggested, only they didn't want to give the racists any reason to call foul after the policy of breaking up families was changed. (If it was.... :roll: )
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:07 am

I'm trying to figure out how the GOP is going to put a positive spin on a bunch of their politicos spending the Fourth of July in Moscow telling the Russians not to interfere in our elections. The Russian reaction was one of total contempt for these idiots. For such a ragtag bunch of amateur diplomats to think they could achieve something....they might as well think they could play chess with a duck.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:12 am



I agree, and here's the box score on the appalling record of corruption this {!#%@} displayed. But things aren't going to get any better under his successor. The EPA is now in the hands of giant corporations, and its mission has made a U-turn. It is now devoted to destroying the environment, not protecting it.

It took an extra generation to achieve it, but we have finally arrived at the era of Fahrenheit 451 and Orwell's 1984, where Fire Departments set fires and the Ministry of Truth is devoted to eradicating the truth.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:14 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 35456.html

Migrant mother says her son came back to her after 85 days ‘covered in dirt and lice’

Hers is one of the hundreds of accounts included in a lawsuit against the Trump administration's family separation policy

...She said about her son’s return: “He continued to cry when we got home and would hold on to my leg and would not left me go”.

“When I took off his clothes, he was full of dirt and lice...It seems like they had not bathed him the 85 days he was away from us,” she noted....

Someone at ICE probably figured, "Dirty Mexicans don't need to be bathed."
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#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:33 am

Gord wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-border-migrant-trump-olivia-caceres-texas-mother-child-lice-dirt-policy-a8435456.html

Migrant mother says her son came back to her after 85 days ‘covered in dirt and lice’

Hers is one of the hundreds of accounts included in a lawsuit against the Trump administration's family separation policy

...She said about her son’s return: “He continued to cry when we got home and would hold on to my leg and would not left me go”.

“When I took off his clothes, he was full of dirt and lice...It seems like they had not bathed him the 85 days he was away from us,” she noted....

Someone at ICE probably figured, "Dirty Mexicans don't need to be bathed."


And now, well well!! ICE can't even find the parents of 38 kids they are holding. It will take a generation for the US to live down this shame. We never learn, do we? FDR had a racist, anti-Semitic Secretary of State who put insuperable obstacles in the way of Jews who wanted asylum here in the late 1930s. The unforgivable refusal of the US to accept a boatload of children, sending them back to die in Europe, is well known. There is even film of FDR himself warning that we didn't dare let these refugees in because there would certainly be spies among them. He might as well have been Trump talking about the "bad hombres". And then, of course, he did even worse, locking up the Nisei in camps. Even so, some of their children served with honor and valor in the European theater of the war. It took a long time for the US to issue a formal apology for those camps, and most of their former inmates died of old age before any reparations were paid. And that was hardly done when the next administration started the present inhuman policy.

Yesterday, the news came that Anne Frank's family was among those that couldn't get through the bureaucratic red tape the US set up to prevent the acceptance of Jewish refugees. The whole story is told with agonizing detail by one refugee who did get here as a teenager, but whose parents were kept out for years and finally died in a camp. See the documentary "America and the Holocaust," available on DVD.
"Still, doubts gnawed at everyone. And under no circumstances could I acknowledge my own similar doubts. In order to coax the participants into psychic stability, I had to appear to be rock-solidly convinced of the necessity of carrying out this horrifyingly cruel command."

Rudolf Höß, hanged facing Auschwitz, the camp he commanded, in April 1947. He admitted to 1.1 to 1.5 million murders carried out under his command. Eichmann told him the number was 2.5 million.


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