Prezident Trump

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:31 am

X, you bring up Clinton in a thread about President Trump.
How much more WHATABOUT can you get?
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:48 am

ElectricMonk wrote:X, you bring up Clinton in a thread about President Trump.
How much more WHATABOUT can you get?


You are using the word incorrectly. Go read this description again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism wrote:Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, . . .


When I mention Clinton in a thread about Trump, it is not to discredit claims about Trump, therefore it is not the fallacy of whataboutism.

I have explained this seventeen times now. When are you going to get it?

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:24 am

It doesn't matter what you think, the fact remains that instead of addressing the issue you deflect.

Whataboutism isn't discrediting a claim, it's relativising it. And for that it doesn't matter if you are pro-Trump or not. It is enough that you use Clinton in reference instead of judging the president on his own actions and words.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:53 am

ElectricMonk wrote:It doesn't matter what you think,


Likewise it doesn't matter what you  think . . .


ElectricMonk wrote:the fact remains that instead of addressing the issue you deflect.


Deflection is different from whataboutism. Defection is not a fallacy.

In any case, it is entirely valid to compare and contrast politicians. Everyone here does it. Including you.


ElectricMonk wrote:Whataboutism isn't discrediting a claim, . . .


That's exactly what it is. Did you not read the source I cited?? You do not get to apply your own personal definitions to words. If a word doesn't have a definition you need, then choose a different word, but don't expect others to accept your redefinitions.

If you want something about Trump, here is a timely editorial in The New York Times :

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/war-trump-islamic-state.html wrote:There is nothing more characteristic of the Trump era, with its fire hose of misinformation, scandal and hyperbole, than that America and its allies recently managed to win a war that just two years ago consumed headlines and dominated political debate and helped Donald Trump himself get elected president — and somehow nobody seemed to notice.

I mean the war against the Islamic State, whose expansion was the defining foreign policy calamity of Barack Obama’s second term, whose executions of Americans made the U.S.A. look impotent and whose utopian experiment drew volunteers drunk on world-historical ambitions and metaphysical dreams. Its defeat was begun under Obama, and the hardest fighting has been done by Iraqis — but this was an American war too, and we succeeded without massive infusions of ground troops, without accidentally getting into a war with Russia, and without inspiring a huge wave of terrorism in the West.

Why haven’t we noticed this success? . . .


And then he goes on to explain. Worth reading, although it might make some people's head explode.

And then he concludes:

. . . if you had told me in late 2016 that almost a year into the Trump era the caliphate would be all-but-beaten without something far worse happening in the Middle East, I would have been surprised and gratified. So very provisionally, credit belongs where it’s due — to our soldiers and diplomats, yes, but to our president as well.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:01 am

xouper wrote:In any case, it is entirely valid to compare and contrast politicians

Not when the comparison is irrelevant to the discussion. I suspect you don't know what that means........................?
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:In any case, it is entirely valid to compare and contrast politicians

Not when the comparison is irrelevant to the discussion.


You're forgetting one important detail here.

I did not bring up Hillary Clinton in this thread. Monk did. Go complain to him about it being irrelevant.

See, here's the funny thing. Monk falsely accused me of "deflection" and "whataboutism" because I mentioned Hillary in a thread about Trump, when in fact he mentioned Hillary first and I was responding to that. You people really need to pay more attention to what's going on before running your mouth. Silly hoomans.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:52 pm

I don't care enough to look, but I wouldn't be surprised if EM mentioned it first relevantly and then you mentioned it later irrelevantly.

.........................but I haven't looked. Once again, I note you are happy to fault others for what you do yourself under one excuse or another. I actually don't remember 17 prior explanations, .............and don't care for #18, if you know what I mean. You gotta get that "whatabout what I actually meant to say but wrote something different" .... fixed.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:01 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't care enough to look, but I wouldn't be surprised if EM mentioned it first relevantly and then you mentioned it later irrelevantly.


You really should care enough to go look before making a fool of yourself like that.

You falsely accuse me of making an irrelevant remark and then you admit you don't even know what I said or what the context was.

But, typical of you to go running your mouth even when you have no clue what you're talking about.

Silly hooman.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:12 pm

I did just the opposite.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:00 pm

Correction:
Xouper made a Whatabout with regards to Obama, not Clinton, at least in this thread.
JO linked an article that showed the difference of Obama's and Trump's lies, but Xouper kept insisting that they are equally bad.

Still wahtbaoutism, just not about Clinton.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:47 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Correction: Xouper made a Whatabout with regards to Obama, not Clinton, at least in this thread. JO linked an article that showed the difference of Obama's and Trump's lies, but Xouper kept insisting that they are equally bad. Still wahtbaoutism, just not about Clinton.


Again, that is simply not true.

1. I did not bring up Obama in this thread, JO did, and I was responding to that. It cannot be the fallacy of whatboutism because I was not the one who first mentioned Obama.

2. Contrary to your false accusation, I did not say they were equally bad. I merely posted what someone else said and provided a link to it, and they did not say they were equally bad. I have no idea where you got such a stoopid idea from, certainly not from reading what was posted on this forum.

3. Contrary to your false accusation, I did not "keep" doing it. Again, you just pulled that put of your ass.

4. And my reply to JO was not any kind of "whatboutism", so again, another false accusation. It was a direct rebuttal to the New York Times article, and there was no "whataboutism" in it, not even close.

You're 0 for 4, Monk.

And if you count the original error about Hillary, that's 0 for 5.

Pathetic.

Please pay more attention before running your mouth with false accusations.

You really suck at this thing called critical thinking. You obviously have no clue whatsoever what a whataboutism fallacy is despite that I provided you with a decent source that explains it. Either you didn't read it, or you failed to comprehend what you read. But I'm not surprised, since you have a long history of documented failures of critical thinking on this forum.

Silly hoomans.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:18 pm

Getting back on topic, one of my previous posts in this thread seems to have got lost amidst all the mudslinging:

xouper wrote:. . . here is a timely editorial in The New York Times :

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/war-trump-islamic-state.html wrote:There is nothing more characteristic of the Trump era, with its fire hose of misinformation, scandal and hyperbole, than that America and its allies recently managed to win a war that just two years ago consumed headlines and dominated political debate and helped Donald Trump himself get elected president — and somehow nobody seemed to notice.

I mean the war against the Islamic State, whose expansion was the defining foreign policy calamity of Barack Obama’s second term, whose executions of Americans made the U.S.A. look impotent and whose utopian experiment drew volunteers drunk on world-historical ambitions and metaphysical dreams. Its defeat was begun under Obama, and the hardest fighting has been done by Iraqis — but this was an American war too, and we succeeded without massive infusions of ground troops, without accidentally getting into a war with Russia, and without inspiring a huge wave of terrorism in the West.

Why haven’t we noticed this success? . . .


And then he goes on to explain. Worth reading, although it might make some people's head explode.

And then he concludes:

. . . if you had told me in late 2016 that almost a year into the Trump era the caliphate would be all-but-beaten without something far worse happening in the Middle East, I would have been surprised and gratified. So very provisionally, credit belongs where it’s due — to our soldiers and diplomats, yes, but to our president as well.


Image

And since there's been much ado about not doing any whataboutism, can we assume there won't be any of that kind of nonsense in response to the NYT editorial?

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:26 pm

Credit goes to Obama....... but yeah.....Trump did manage not to start a War (yet) with Putin and Iran while throwing the Kurds under the bus for our good friend Erdogan.

Ha, ha........all the wailing about the Palestinians. Who cries for the Kurds?

.........and we do all note you are a true skeptical independent and "NOT" a Republican. It just oozes out of you.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Credit goes to Obama.......


The author of that editorial I posted, Ross Douthat of The New York Times — neither of which are Trump sycophants — does not agree with you.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha........all the wailing about the Palestinians. Who cries for the Kurds?


And there it is — a textbook example of the fallacy of whataboutism.

Ross Douthat of The New York Times : Trump gets some credit for defeating ISIS.

Bobbo_the_Whataboutist: Yeah, but what about the Kurds?

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:13 am

all three of you are ...............wrong.

Imagine that.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:33 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:all three of you are ...............wrong.

Imagine that.


Well.

I guess that settles it.

If I had known you have a monopoly on the truth, I could have skipped all that wasted effort.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:50 am

Well.......the full argument was only hinted at and you habitually don't respond to full arguments....so why bother?

Obama in office and working on Syria for 8 years. Trump in Office for one year doing nothing except covering up his collusion with Putin.................so, in quick form: who should get credit or blame for Iraq? So like a Trumpie to grab credit for anything perceived as good regardless of OBVIOUS alternatives....................most independents don't do that.

.....................and when you consider the defeat of ISIS, how can you not think of the Kurds. Yes, I know: very indicative you don't think at all.

.............................................. whats your talking point on subject????

1. I know you are, but what am I?

2. You misunderstood what I meant to say??

3. You are despicable???

Surprise me.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well.......the full argument was only hinted at and you habitually don't respond to full arguments....so why bother?


Now you know how I feel when you ask me  for the Full Monty. Why bother.


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:So like a Trumpie to grab credit for anything perceived as good regardless of OBVIOUS alternatives..................


Ross Douthat of The New York Times  is not a Trumpie. Neither is The New York Times .

But that is typical of the blather you post, failing to notice even the most simple of facts before running your mouth.


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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:42 am

I usually only ask for a hint. ............... ha, ha.

How did Cartman spell "Muy Authoritay"?

I agree the NYT is usually biased...............but...............did the authors address the comparison between Obama and anyone of note?
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:59 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I agree the NYT is usually biased...............but...............did the authors address the comparison between Obama and anyone of note?


Are you admitting you didn't even read it?

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:08 am

Thats pretty clear. You see X.............ON ITS FACE.......its pretty well biased and in error. I gave my reasoning for that. Now....if there was some sort of interesting aside, it might be worth the read, but why read stuff that is wrong ON ITS FACE. Hmmm...ha, ha...."face." You have the biggest FACE among the avatars. I wonder if there is a connection there?

Just an aside, the only thing I did wonder was whether or not the article was actually satire........but I find satire boring and not reason enough to read an article that is obviously WRONG ON ITS FACE.

What did Trump do to deserve accolades? Are accolades FOR ANYONE deserved at all...? WHATABOUT the Kurds.

I do feel for the Kurds. Hosed for centuries. Cousins of the Armenians. so often its those Turks causing problems all over the place. You know the Turks? aka: Persians. We forged our civilization in opposition to their tyranny. Whatabouts like that. Another definitional role.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:35 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thats pretty clear. You see X.............ON ITS FACE.......its pretty well biased and in error. I gave my reasoning for that. Now....if there was some sort of interesting aside, it might be worth the read, but why read stuff that is wrong ON ITS FACE.


You haven't read it and yet you know what it says.

Image

Who knew.

If I had that skill, I would never have had to read any of my college textbooks.

In fact, I wouldn't even need to read your next seventeen posts to know they are all full of blathering.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:47 am

X--you are bright enough that with just a little bit of practice, you could be brighter.

EG: read what is actually written.

its clear I don't "KNOW" what the article says beyond the quote you provided, I'm just making an educated guess and valuing my time.

Yet...I still gave my time to explain WHY I did what I did.

Lot's of ways you could be brighter...................give it a try.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby xouper » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:57 am

That's one.

Sixteen more to go.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:03 am

I'm just poking you.................................. OR am I?

Even lies may have a kernel in there somewhere worth reviewing.

consider it my X-Mas Card to you as i ran out of stamps in 2003.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:12 am

OK....I read it. Shorter than I was fearing, so that was a good thing.

My view: it MOSTLY just concerns the "win" being the finishing conclusions to what Obama put in place except for the noticeable pro-Israel stance Trump took as opposed to Obama's supposed anti-Israel stance===>but what the frick does that have to do with defeating ISIS?????

The news reports during Trumps One Year was that he was nearly stumbling into a War with Putin over Putin's independent and additional military action in Syria along with Trump basically just handing the war over to the Generals for them to do as they wished........was to lead from behind a la Obama.

Bottom line: you recommended this facially Pro-Trump article without any independing analysis of your own....and anything more than a quick glance at what is written shows Trump himself did little to nothing. You can call that "his" success if you wish................... in fact, his high point so far?
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:>but what the frick does that have to do with defeating ISIS?????

I don't think that's exactly true. ISIS is still in Iraq and Syria. They simply lost their last controlled areas and have reverted to guerrilla warfare. It's like saying the Viet cong are defeated because they didn't control any South Vietnam city or saying Russian Partisans were defeated in WWII because they hid in swamps. :D

Sec Defence Mattis wants to ensure people do not get the idea that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria is already defeated. While the “State” part of the group’s title is almost gone, he thinks “anyone who thinks they're down is premature"

Mind you, I'm buggered to understand how ISIS can raise money without locals or any local resources to exploit. That's why all the fighters are returning to their country of origin. That's why the Russians and Iraqis are squeezing them along the Syrian Iraq border, where transport is difficult.

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:37 am

Matt: agree totally. Was gonna say something like that, but it didn't fit.

I don't understand how Europe can be "stymied" with what to do with ISIS Fighters returning to EU: should they get social benefits, or only their family?

Its on issues like this that my "Realpolitik" can get really nasty.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:30 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't understand how Europe can be "stymied" with what to do with ISIS Fighters returning to EU: should they get social benefits, or only their family?
It's not really Europe. It's mostly the Philippines and Muslim countries. That's why we had the recent problem in the South Philippines in Marawi :D

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:52 am

China and Russia, too.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: That's why all the fighters are returning to their country of origin. That's why the Russians and Iraqis are squeezing them along the Syrian Iraq border, where transport is difficult.[/color]


At home, they can grow more opium poppies for fund raising purposes.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:51 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: At home, they can grow more opium poppies for fund raising purposes.

They needed more money that that. It was Erdogan's son who was buying ISIS oil, so Russia destroyed his fleet on oil carriers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzznQqkGX8

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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:02 am

Imho this independent Irish journalist probably comes about as close as we can get to understanding Trumps foreign "policy:"
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/413674-trump ... dominance/
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:13 am

Tom Palven wrote:Imho this independent Irish journalist probably comes about as close as we can get to understanding Trumps foreign "policy:"
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/413674-trump ... dominance/


...this presupposes that Trump was involved in the making of the document or at least read it.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:57 am

Trump's approval rating just entered a league of its own

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's approval rating sank to a new low in CNN polling on Tuesday, earning the approval of just 35% of Americans less than a year into his first term.

That's a significant drop from the 45% approval rating that Trump had in March, shortly after taking office.
It marks the worst approval rating in a December of any elected president's first year in the White House by a wide margin — and only the second time since the dawn of modern polling that a president's approval rating sank under 50% at this point. A broad 59% of Americans said they disapprove of how Trump is handling his job as president.



Continues...

Less than 5% among Dems.
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Trump's approval rating just entered a league of its own

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's approval rating sank to a new low in CNN polling on Tuesday, earning the approval of just 35% of Americans less than a year into his first term.

That's a significant drop from the 45% approval rating that Trump had in March, shortly after taking office.
It marks the worst approval rating in a December of any elected president's first year in the White House by a wide margin — and only the second time since the dawn of modern polling that a president's approval rating sank under 50% at this point. A broad 59% of Americans said they disapprove of how Trump is handling his job as president.



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Less than 5% among Dems.


This should put a scare into North Koreans, Iranians, and any ethical person

When Dubya's popularity rating was around 45% he launched "Shock and Awe" on the totally blameless people of Iraq, and his popularity shot to over 80%, the highest recorded for a sitting President at that time, and every politician knows this kind of thing.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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scrmbldggs
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:28 pm

:frown:
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

Aztexan
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby Aztexan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:00 pm

Yeah but Hillary would have probably cause global instability and Obama used drones.
So there.
trump is Putin's bitch

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OlegTheBatty
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Re: Prezident Trump

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:44 pm

Aztexan wrote:. . . and Obama used drones.
So there.


Trump isn't repealing Obamascare, is he?
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero


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