A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

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A Monument to Bad Propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:10 am

You are an American.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Damn melting pot.
Exactly. If I were only of Italian background, it wouldn't automatically make me an expert on Roman culture. If I were only of Fijian background, it wouldn't automatically make me an expert on coconuts. If I were only of African background, it wouldn't automatically make me an expert on throwing spears. :D

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:19 am

its that kind of ignorance that marks Landrew as a primitive. Still...…..he should not project his own (lack of) values onto his extended family. They beat us to Space afterall…………………...
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Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:10 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
But, although everyone seemed well-dressed and happy and friendly in Norway, I still have questions about the wonders of socialism.

We heard it said several times by different people that Norway is rich, and that if it's oil income were distributed to all it's citizens that they would all be millionaires. But, Norway apparently has an income tax of 38%, a sales tax (VAT) of 25%, and a social security tax of 8.2%.
It's true. But the one stroke of luck/genius our politicians did back in the 90s was to decide that we should really try not to flood our economy with all that money just for a big ride of inflation in it's wake. So the oil money is cordoned off somewhat from the national budget, and put into a "pension fund" (second only to the Qataris I think). They stated a "rule" in so that no more than 4% of that money should be used at any time (assuming 4% was roughly the longterm profit rate). Breaking that line is considered reckless economics and is avoided. Furthermore, we have a big and generous welfare state that provide all health, schooling and tons of other stuff. Hence relatively high tax rates (as we always did have). Note that Sweden and Denmark are also doing pretty good, without a drop of oil or similar. Hence the scandinavian welfare model.
Our tour guide in Oslo, an older woman, told us that the retirement age which was once 62 is now 67 for maximum benefits, and is expected to go up to age 70. She said that this is because Norway has a labor shortage and it is necessary to keep people in the labor force longer.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed
Well, that's a bit technical. We did have a pension reform whose aim was to lower long term costs of retirees with an aging population. So you have to work longer now for the same pension, true. However, we have really abolished a pension age entirely in principle. You can retire at 62 if you so wish (and keep working while receiving the money), but that will be at reduced rates overall. So you have to work until about 70 to earn the same pension one would at a couple of 60 before. But this is still messy with public employees having one sort of (myriad) deals still, while the private sector has largely another etc. The principles have been set, but not entirely carried out you might say. Shortly put: Retire whenever you want, but you get more the longer you wait.
This really doesn't compute for me, and I wonder why socialists who used to talk about a Worker's Paradise and the supposedly strong labor unions in Norway tolerate this?
I doubt labour unions have much more clout anywhere else really. I could go into it in looong detail, but suffice to say that wages in Norway are set by central negotiations between the major labour unions and the major employer organizations with the state facilitating. This relation enables us to have very moderate wage demands in low times, and more frisky ones when times are good. It's all a big coop essentially with these central negotiations setting the bar for other more local negotiations, and also sets the minimum wage by tariff for a profession if it is sufficiently unionized. Meaning, it applies also to all other unorganized workers.

Glad you enjoyed the trip, and I'm always around to explain the complexities of "socialist utopia". (To be fair though, Scandinavian countries are mostly social democracies mixed with liberalism. The latter often passing for conservative politics around here)

Peace
Dan

I'd really like to know who is actually benefiting from all this alleged wealth. Is it the international bankers, as usual, the same people who wouldn't allow the Greeks to default on their debt to the company store?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norw ... L90S1?il=0
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:58 pm

Tom Palven wrote: I'd really like to know who is actually benefiting from all this alleged wealth. Is it the international bankers, as usual, the same people who wouldn't allow the Greeks to default on their debt to the company store?
You mean besides the general Norwegian population...…...right? In the USA 97% of that Sovereign Fund would be in the pockets of the AlreadyTooRich. Can One Trillion Dollars sit in a gubment account and not be fingered? Of course not...but lets give credit where it is due?

Socialism for the people: not entirely bad.
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Abdul's absurd attempt to change the subject back!

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:03 pm

About those monuments.
Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, Chelsea (Bradley) Manning
The three of them together in one big monument, Mount Rushmore style?

Or three separate megaliths (sneer of cold command and all) each in its own shrine?

:mrgreen:
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:34 am

Ok...…...I've let it go a few hourse………..but Ellsberg should be on any such monument. I'd say: make it Four, or drop Chelsea?
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Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Post by OutOfBreath » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:11 pm

Tom Palven wrote:I'd really like to know who is actually benefiting from all this alleged wealth. Is it the international bankers, as usual, the same people who wouldn't allow the Greeks to default on their debt to the company store?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norw ... L90S1?il=0
Ehm, all inhabitants of norway? The money siphoned off this fund goes straight into the national budget and thus pays for schools, health care etc. Or were you more onto "big capitalism" types administering the money or the companies in general.

I always do think it's kinda funny to have libertarians go after rich people having influence, when the libertarian dream is that this will be the only influence possible... (for some i suspect the word "jew" has something to do with it)

Peace
Dan
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Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:09 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:I'd really like to know who is actually benefiting from all this alleged wealth. Is it the international bankers, as usual, the same people who wouldn't allow the Greeks to default on their debt to the company store?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norw ... L90S1?il=0
Ehm, all inhabitants of norway?

Peace
Dan
Again, it doesn't compute for me that all inhabitants of Norway are benefiting when their retirement age is being raised. Something seems to be a little fukked up.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:04 am

Tom Palven wrote:Again, it doesn't compute for me that all inhabitants of Norway are benefiting when their retirement age is being raised. Something seems to be a little fukked up.
Well Tom. Please remember that you are a uneducated right wing uneducated forest ranger who lied about studying economics at Cornell. All you do is is copy Sean Hannity's posts from Fox News. Your opinion is worthless.

However in moderate socialist states like Norway and Australia we look after everyone. Do you as a "Libertarian" agree with that? Just say no.......let the poor starve.....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:48 pm

Well...…..retirement age going UP is generally not a "benefit."...………..unless...….by raising that age the program is kept solvent for everyone? You know....adjusting all programs to be RATIONAL? In the USA, the solution instead of raising that age is to privatize the program so the AlreadyTooRich can plunder the funds and everyone that needs the benefit will be screwed over. "If you want benefits.....go to Norway."
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Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:47 am

Tom Palven wrote: Again, it doesn't compute for me that all inhabitants of Norway are benefiting when their retirement age is being raised. Something seems to be a little fukked up.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed
That article is a bit dated (2004), and refers to the expert group's opinion, not as it was implememented after.

I could go on mind-numbingly about the complexities and details of this, how some will benefit, some won't and all that, but that will really be tl;dr.

What is the point is this: There is a difference between retiring at 65 if life-expectancy is 78, and retiring at 65 if life-expectancy is 90. Today's elderly are much healthier than they used to be, and we were set to have a lot more of them. So what happened woth this report is that the entire Storting went for it, with exception of our populists who wanted to score points. Now, you can retire whenever you want after 62, but the public contribution will be smaller if you start the benefits early, and larger if later. However, you are free to work while receiving your pension, so you could basically have a double income for some years if you choose. That's lucrative for the individual in the here and now (although if you live for a long time, you would receive a sub-optimal total amount), and lucrative for the state, which then have lower liabilites and get people to work for longer. This has worked, as more above-60 people are working now than before the reform. In addition, employers were now mandated to have an additional pension scheme for their employees, called "service pension". So when you retire, one part of it is the official basic pension, and the other part will be this service pension.

To summarize: it is hard to tell that some have come worse off or not in all this. You need a master's degree in pensions to hang on to all the details. But it is really a show of realism and solidarity (things you dont do in the US overall). We want to keep a generous welfare state viable in the future as well. Ensuring that meant adjusting some things, like pensions, in a bid to reduce future expenses on that to a level we can sustain. So, the pensions are made more affordable, but with several add-ons which doesnt necessarily translate into that much lower benefits. And we eliminate the loophole of full pension at 62, which is clearly unsustainable if almost everyone can do it.

(edit) which is pretty much what wikipedia says about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_ ... ion_Reform

Peace
Dan
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Ignorance is Strength

Post by Tom Palven » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:44 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Again, it doesn't compute for me that all inhabitants of Norway are benefiting when their retirement age is being raised. Something seems to be a little fukked up.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed
To summarize: it is hard to tell that some have come worse off or not in all this. You need a master's degree in pensions to hang on to all the details. But it is really a show of realism and solidarity (things you dont do in the US overall). We want to keep a generous welfare state viable in the future as well. Ensuring that meant adjusting some things, like pensions, in a bid to reduce future expenses on that to a level we can sustain.

Peace
Dan
I still don't get it, Dan.

Everyone and his uncle says that if the North Sea oil revenues were distributed between all Norwegians that everyone would be a millionaire, so I just don't see this worry about a sustainable level of revenue, unless it's a sustainable level of revenue for the banksters that you are talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0

I'm sure that you are not a Putin fan, but it seems that he is doing to Russians in their worker's paradise what your politicans are doing to you, and the average Russian may not be as happy about this stuff as you are, and their pension age is only being raised to 65, while yours is being raised to 70.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... irement-a/
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Re: Ignorance is Strength

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:09 pm

Tom Palven wrote: I still don't get it, Dan.

Everyone and his uncle says that if the North Sea oil revenues were distributed between all Norwegians that everyone would be a millionaire, so I just don't see this worry about a sustainable level of revenue, unless it's a sustainable level of revenue for the banksters that you are talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0
It is a lot of money. But to put it differently, it's not more than a national budget or two if you eliminate other incomes. Further, if everyone gets a million, then you just get inflation of 1000% immediately. I dont know if you've read the old Donald Duck story by Carl Barks, where Scrooge's money is funnelled into a tornado and poured out over the countryside. Everyone's a millionaire and puts down their work. Only, there's nothing to buy since noone bothers to work anymore. (I'm a millionaire!) Scrooge keeps calm and just farms the land on his property, and gets all his money back when he sells cabbage at 5000$ a head. There's a point in that. Economists call such a situation "dutch disease".

Secondly, since we keep the money nationally, we can use it to fund common goods instead, whcih is what we do. So instead of massive inflation, we manage to put money aside, and use it to fund us through rainy days (the financial crisis was barely a blip here), and to maintain the welfare state into the future. Since much of the money is invested abroad, it doesn't cause inflation.
I'm sure that you are not a Putin fan, but it seems that he is doing to Russians in their worker's paradise what your politicans are doing to you, and the average Russian may not be as happy about this stuff as you are, and their pension age is only being raised to 65, while yours is being raised to 70.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... irement-a/
First off, we haven't raised the retirement age to 70, we have made it a flexible arrangement you can start getting paid out at 62. But reduced somewhat the overall benefit payments, yes, from a very competitive level I can assure you.

Secondly, Russia is something very different entirely. The life expectancy there is just over 70 years, and has been almost flat since at least 1964, whereas Norway has gone from 74 to 83 in the same time frame:
https://www.google.no/publicdata/explor ... &ind=false
So for many Russians, this means they will barely collect any pension at all, and that pension is rather meagre in the first place. Letting women retire at 55 sounds ludicrus to me, but it's a very different country with a very different system. Definitely not comparable.

Peace
Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:16 pm

The million dollars per Norwegians leading to inflation reminds me that is exactly the same reason that Social Security should not be privatized for investing in the Stock Market. All it would do is devalue the money via inflation. No additional "value" is created in the bought stock....it just soaks up all the money.

Of course, there has been strong Puke interest in doing this for quite some time.
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Fact Checking

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:34 am

Norway has already exploited 45% of all its potential North Sea oil. It is going to run out.
"...so far, only about 45 % of the estimated recoverable resources on the Norwegian shelf have been produced and sold."
https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/econom ... -revenues/

Norway's net government revenue from North Sea oil in 2017 was 167 billion NOK ( 20 billion USD).
https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/econom ... -revenues/

20 billion USD divided by Norway's population of 5.2 million = $3,846 USD per person.
:D

Skepticism also means checking facts. :D

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:11 am

Thanks Matt. I love ballparking math issues. I just assumed it is wrong. applying numbers is always a good thing. Sad most issues are not subject to such analysis.
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Matt. I love ballparking math issues. I just assumed it is wrong. applying numbers is always a good thing. Sad most issues are not subject to such analysis.
Tom Palven previously wrote:Everyone and his uncle says that if the North Sea oil revenues were distributed between all Norwegians that everyone would be a millionaire,
No one ever said that. Tom Palven hates socialism, tells flat out lies and doesn't expect anyone to check him. Half his "quotes" come from Fox News. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Matt. I love ballparking math issues. I just assumed it is wrong. applying numbers is always a good thing. Sad most issues are not subject to such analysis.
Tom Palven previously wrote:Everyone and his uncle says that if the North Sea oil revenues were distributed between all Norwegians that everyone would be a millionaire,
No one ever said that. Tom Palven hates socialism, tells flat out lies and doesn't expect anyone to check him. Half his "quotes" come from Fox News. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I heard that several imes while I was in Norway.

The article below says that Norway has a pension fund of One trillion dollars, and yet the retirement age is being raised t 70 for full benefits.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/invest ... index.html

This still doesn't quite add up for me.
(The US, on the other hand, is in debt for $20 trillion)
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Tom Palven is an idiot 3

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:22 am

Tom Palven wrote:I heard that several times while I was in Norway.
Tom Palven : "Is this the way to the museum?"
Local Norwegian : "Every one of our 5.2 million citizens would be a millionaire in Norwegian Krones, if we paid them the Norwegian North Sea oil government revenue and you forgot about currency conversion, which you are currently exchanging, as a tourist."

You really are a total idiot.

Tom Palven wrote:This still doesn't quite add up for me.
That's because you can't do basic mathematics and you are a total idiot.
Tom Palven previously wrote:I've stated that I took both macro and microeconomics courses at Cornell
You studied forestry you complete idiot.

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Re: Fact Checking

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:17 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Norway has already exploited 45% of all its potential North Sea oil. It is going to run out.
"...so far, only about 45 % of the estimated recoverable resources on the Norwegian shelf have been produced and sold."
https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/econom ... -revenues/

Norway's net government revenue from North Sea oil in 2017 was 167 billion NOK ( 20 billion USD).
https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/econom ... -revenues/

20 billion USD divided by Norway's population of 5.2 million = $3,846 USD per person.
:D

Skepticism also means checking facts. :D
Mind you, that number is just the yearly cashflow. The estimated value of the fund itself is at 8483 billion NOK. Roughly a thousand billion dollars.
https://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/market-value/
Yeah it's incredibly much. Largest sovereign fund in the world save some gulf state's (quatar i think?).

(Edit: sorry didnt see the newest replies before posting)

Peace
Dan
Last edited by OutOfBreath on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:28 am

OutOfBreath wrote:Mind you, that number is just the yearly cashflow. The estimated value of the fund itself is at 8483 billion NOK. Roughly a thousand billion dollars.
We have the same long term future fund here in Australia. It just makes sense. We are both moderate socialist European countries. (Well, we are in Asia and just dumb Aussies who follow economic logic.)

I also assume from Norwegian tax law, we have "sort of" the same retirement tax incentives to invest in superannuation (retirement funds) .
:D

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:38 am

Tom Palven wrote: I heard that several imes while I was in Norway.

The article below says that Norway has a pension fund of One trillion dollars, and yet the retirement age is being raised t 70 for full benefits.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/invest ... index.html

This still doesn't quite add up for me.
(The US, on the other hand, is in debt for $20 trillion)
Dude, for the last time: retirement age is 62, not 70. But yes we tied pensions closer to how long you work and how long people are generally expected to live. That's plain prudence taking small actions now to prevent potential future crises. I know that public poverty is the american way, but we dont do that. We have consensus based social democratic politics that enable us to be smart about this. Also allows us to have lower taxes and better services than our other tax income could support.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Fact Checking

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I also assume from Norwegian tax law, we have "sort of" the same retirement tax incentives to invest in superannuation (retirement funds) . [/color] :D
I must admit im not that versed in tax law and pension savings, but probably. Im just a kid at 37 still. :)

Peace
Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:17 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I heard that several imes while I was in Norway.

The article below says that Norway has a pension fund of One trillion dollars, and yet the retirement age is being raised t 70 for full benefits.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/invest ... index.html

This still doesn't quite add up for me.
(The US, on the other hand, is in debt for $20 trillion)
Dude, for the last time: retirement age is 62, not 70.

Peace
Dan

This is what I'm referring to, Dude:
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed

With a trillion dollar pension fund in a workers paradise, one would expect a discussion about pension age being lowered!

Do you realize how both public and private unions have squandered pension funds in the US?

Did you ever hear about the US Social Security "lock box?" :lol:

Perhaps lessons could be learned from these things if one is capable of learning.
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:34 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I heard that several imes while I was in Norway.

The article below says that Norway has a pension fund of One trillion dollars, and yet the retirement age is being raised t 70 for full benefits.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/11/16/invest ... index.html

This still doesn't quite add up for me.
(The US, on the other hand, is in debt for $20 trillion)
Dude, for the last time: retirement age is 62, not 70.

Peace
Dan

This is what I'm referring to, Dude:
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed

With a trillion dollar pension fund in a workers paradise, one would expect a discussion about pension age being lowered!

Do you realize how both public and private unions have squandered pension funds in the US?

Did you ever hear about the US Social Security "lock box?" :lol:

Perhaps lessons could be learned from these things if one is capable of learning.
Full circle then. Again the article is from 2004 regarding an expert panel's suggestion. Not what happened. What happened i have explained several times in detail.

Otherwise, only a libertarian would have a problem with public wealth for public benefits. But, for a libertarian, you have no trust in "money people" either so i dunno, man. If the money were "released" where do you think it would end up? Equitably shared among the public or concentrated into a few rich hands. The example would be the us where there is a taxcut religion going on, while people seem surprised that public services then suck.

To wrap your head around what we do: hows this. The oil, and increasingly gas, money is treated as a windfall profit. For the benefit of everyone and our children, we saved a bunch of it, and try to be as unreliant on it as we can, to make that money last well into the future. The point, as with many funds, was not to use the base capital, but only the annual profits. Which is what we have done so far. However, if you check the chart i linked further up:
https://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/market-value/
You can see that it has grown very fast in recent years. Now, the scandinavian social democratic impulse is still to make this benefit us all thru public services and as an insurance that there will be money for pensions in the future. Noone is suggesting to cash out and get out of dodge as it were. That is seen as a deeply immoral and irresponsible move. That's the background here, a nation of "socialists".

I am surprised though that you see this as that unrealistic and foolish given that you yourself promote an idealist system. Maybe it comes down to trust, of which we have a lot when measured, and Americans' lack thereof. Isnt it sad if you think the only way people can benefit from a situation like ours is to pass out the loot to piss it away, instead of using it for stuff everyone wants?

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Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:51 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Isnt it sad if you think the only way people can benefit from a situation like ours is to pass out the loot to piss it away, instead of using it for stuff everyone wants?

Peace
Dan

Yes, I guess that's sad, but according to what I read and what everyone chooses to camouflage, is that the age for full benefits has been steadily increasing according to a pension reform agreement which won't be completed until 2025.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_ ... ion_Reform

By that time the pension funds will probably be spent on a huge new "desperately-needed" military base.

Just call me skeptical.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:31 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Isnt it sad if you think the only way people can benefit from a situation like ours is to pass out the loot to piss it away, instead of using it for stuff everyone wants?

Peace
Dan

Yes, I guess that's sad, but according to what I read and what everyone chooses to camouflage, is that the age for full benefits has been steadily increasing according to a pension reform agreement which won't be completed until 2025.

By that time the money will probably be spent on a "desperately-needed" huge military base

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_ ... ion_Reform
*sigh* We're not america, dude. Look up prudence in the dictionary. It's what we do. We could have put off fixing the pensions until the last minute and then thrown a lot of money at it. We elected to fix it now with a near-unanimous storting making a big bargain. Yes, all else equal, public pensions will be somewhat lower. But you can choose to work longer or work while receiving to get more money. At the same time employers were mandated to put in place "service pensions" so that all retirees at that future time will have not 1 but 2 pensions in effect. That second pension is marketbased, which allows for bigger pensions but without state liabilities. Its a big fudge that puts in incentives to work longer but letting you choose not to if thats your wish. It's not compatable to the previous system at all.

The money will be spent on the welfare state first and foremost. We have an aging population which will be a challenge to manage, but the pension reform and the pension fund is how we will manage it. It's a different country that works differently from the us.

Just call me skeptical
Fine. Just dont come dragging with a russia comparison, just because russia is getting bad press on it's more drastic pension cuts.

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Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:59 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Just call me skeptical
Fine. Just dont come dragging with a russia comparison, just because russia is getting bad press on it's more drastic pension cuts.

Peace
Dan

Whatever, Dude.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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A Monument to Stupidity is Being Planned

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:33 am

Tom Palven asks why the Norwegian Future Fund cannot simply be divided up and given to each Norwegian citizen under his "Libertarian" belief system.

Out of Breath has correctly stated the reasons
1) It would cause massive inflation in Norway
2) A buyer would have to exist in the first place who could raise the money to buy it.
3) The liquidated funds would have to be held in a currency that would not suffer deflation anyway.
4) The problem of funding pensions and national emergencies would simply return to Norway.


However, I say....let Tom Palven go back to the USA voters and demand
1) All roads, highways, pavements and streets immediately be privatised and the sale value given equally to each USA citizen.

2) All hydro electric systems, dams, water supply systems be privatised and the sale value given equally to each USA citizen.

3) All gas, oil and LPG reserves and rights be privatised and the sale value given equally to each USA citizen.

4) All parks, nature reserves and public land be sold off and the sale value given equally to each USA citizen.

Well Tom? Stop wasting your time here talking to us socialists, for free on a public goods Skeptic forum. Get out there and tell those US voters exactly why they should vote for you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:06 am

I searched a bit for national comparisons of pensions, and stumbled across this.

https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=w ... 44byiKLwTr

Norway ranked first in this, so I think you can say our pensioners aren't that bad off. (Russia is 40th of the 43 measured)

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Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:02 am

OutOfBreath wrote:I searched a bit for national comparisons of pensions, and stumbled across this.

https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=w ... 44byiKLwTr

Norway ranked first in this, so I think you can say our pensioners aren't that bad off. (Russia is 40th of the 43 measured)

Peace
Dan
Most political/social comparisons/analysis in the USA are based on comparing any foreign program against perfection and pointing out the inequities while NEVER offering solutions to make it better or more acceptable WHILE NEVER comparing anything to our own system and its abundant faults.

Its actually quite a "hat trick."
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:07 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Most political/social comparisons/analysis in the USA are based on comparing any foreign program against perfection and pointing out the inequities while NEVER offering solutions to make it better or more acceptable WHILE NEVER comparing anything to our own system and its abundant faults.

Its actually quite a "hat trick."
Indeed. There's a graph on page 49 showing life expectancy and money spent on health that is instructive. Noone spends more than the us on health, yet life expectancy is distinctly mediocre, trailing basically all of europe at least.

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Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:16 am

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Isnt it sad if you think the only way people can benefit from a situation like ours is to pass out the loot to piss it away, instead of using it for stuff everyone wants?

Peace
Dan

Yes, I guess that's sad, but according to what I read and what everyone chooses to camouflage, is that the age for full benefits has been steadily increasing according to a pension reform agreement which won't be completed until 2025.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_ ... ion_Reform

By that time the pension funds will probably be spent on a huge new "desperately-needed" military base.

Just call me skeptical.

Already, Norway is needing larger miitary bases in order to fully join the US/British military industrial complex:
https://news.antiwar.com/2018/09/30/uk- ... et-russia/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by OutOfBreath » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:59 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Already, Norway is needing larger miitary bases in order to fully join the US/British military industrial complex:
https://news.antiwar.com/2018/09/30/uk- ... et-russia/
No, not really. We have too much "base-space" as it is, and the defense department is still spinning off old bases for sale on the open market. (Although at reduced pace now)

We will be splurging on new aircraft etc etc, since much equipment is outdated, and with Russia meddling, and the US spreading uncertainty about supporting in the case of article 5, we need to spend more on weapons for ourselves. Norway is in NATO for a reason, and we will probably be keen to fulfill the 2% target in the alliance for defense spending. Note that all this is virtually politically unanimous in Norway. We know we're a small country so we encourage and support big alliances and international law and order like the UN.

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Dan
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Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:52 am

Tom Palven wrote: Already, Norway is needing larger miitary bases in order to fully join the US/British military industrial complex:
You are an idiot. Norway is already joined to Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, United Kingdom, United States, Greece, Turkey. Germany. Spain. Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland through NATO.

You forgot what NATO is again, as you are a complete idiot.

Norway mostly uses German tanks and firearms, US Aircraft and Norwegian and German navy ships. How is that part of your magical 1961 USA/UK military industrial conspiracy?

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Already, Norway is needing larger miitary bases in order to fully join the US/British military industrial complex:
You are an idiot. Norway is already joined to Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, United Kingdom, United States, Greece, Turkey. Germany. Spain. Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland through NATO.

You forgot what NATO is again, as you are a complete idiot.

Norway mostly uses German tanks and firearms, US Aircraft and Norwegian and German navy ships. How is that part of your magical 1961 USA/UK military industrial conspiracy?
You might add sweden and finland to the list. They're not in nato but the nordic countries coordinate on many things, including military.

But yes, we are willingly allied to the us and other european countries, and our main worry is Russia. (Although we do try to have good ties with them as well in issues concerning the barents sea area).

As for hardware, i believe our mobile artillery howitzers m109 were of american make. I was in the artillery for my draft service in 1999. But i think we have retired those in more recent years.

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Dan
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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:14 am

OutOfBreath wrote:You might add sweden and finland to the list. They're not in nato but the nordic countries coordinate on many things, including military.
My father was a group captain in the RAAF and as a general rule Australia always works with New Zealand (ANZAC). Sometimes we fight with the UK and not the USA ( The Malaysian Communist insurgency) and sometimes the USA and not the UK (Vietnam War of Independence), Sometimes we fight on our own ( Indonesian Communist insurgency and East Timor occupied by Indonesia)

However, Tom is a conspiracy theorist who claims the USA's arms manufacturers, push countries like Australia and Norway into wars so they can sell us more weapons. When I point out most of our countries's weapons are not American he simply starts another thread and makes the same claim elsewhere. He doesn't acknowledge that Russia, Indonesia and China may be the reason we have to maintain efficient armies.

In reality, Eisenhower made his 1961 military industrial complex warning in 1961, when the USA spent 8% of its GDP on weapons. Nowadays the USA spends only 3.2 % of GDP, indicating the exact opposite to his claim. Tom Palven refuses to acknowledge that the SALT and START treaties have reduced Russia and the USA's nuclear stock piles of warheads from 36,000 each side, in the 1960's to 2,700 today.

The world really is becoming more peacefull, due to normal diplomacy and this annoys Tom Palven, who thinks he is the only person promoting peace.


PS my baby boy, Auguste, has now reached 6 kilograms at 6 months (he was 8 weeks premature) and talks non-stop baby talk. I hope your boy is also doing well. :D

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Re: Tom Palven is an idiot

Post by OutOfBreath » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:27 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: PS my baby boy, Auguste, has now reached 6 kilograms at 6 months (he was 8 weeks premature) and talks non-stop baby talk. I hope your boy is also doing well. :D
My third daughter ;) is now 8 months and approaching 9 kilos. She's a big'un (85th-95th percentile), and much larger than her sisters at that age. She now crawls all over the place and eats everything and has a very jolly demeanor in general. So all's well. :)

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Dan
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:00 pm

Trump just successfully renegotiated the North American Free Trade Agreement.

If the UK is feeling lonely after Brexit, why not join it?

The UK is at least as "North American" as Turkey is "North Atlantic". :pr:
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Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:55 am

Ecuador loosens controls on Julian Assange:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... bassy-base
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire