A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Where no two people are likely to agree.
Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Tom's Russian talk points

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:34 am

Tom Palven wrote: I agree with most of what you say, but you are forgetting that what Syria possesses is Russia's only military base and port in the Mid-East .
You are a couple years out of date.

Cyprus signs deal to allow Russian navy to use ports
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31632259

Your "policy" is for the USA to leave NATO, stop all US political influence in Europe and close down the CIA, right? :lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:57 pm

Ellard. Matthew Ellard, 008. For your eyes only:

Ya think that the first strike against NK will be a cyber attack? Personally, I think that the neocons prefer to see bloodshed.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/15/nor ... nce-trump/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Tom's Russian talk points

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:43 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Ya think that the first strike against NK will be a cyber attack? Personally, I think that the neocons prefer to see bloodshed.
You need to read normal newspapers. There are already crippling international economic sanctions against North Korea. Didn't you know? :lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:26 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Top of my head, you have Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Israel, Lebanon (Hizbollah), Turkey and Iraq involved in "the game" alongside the US. Atm Russia seems to have the upper hand in the melee as they help assure Assad's continued rule.
Don't forget the Kurds in Syria. They want a nation. :D

Oh i know. I was containing myself to the foreign actors involved. If I were to list all the internal factions I'd be sitting here all night. Point ofcourse being to show the presence of multiple actors and the complications therein.

Peace
Dan


I agree with you Dan that the Mid-East is a can of worms.

What just caught my eye was this alleged statistic that Norway has recently had 4 times the rate of certain mass murders than any other country.
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/compa ... nd-europe/

I know that figures lie and liars figure, but I thought I'd just run this by you for grins.

Btw, Marge and I will cruising to some ports in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia in April, along with other countries in the area. We've seen a lot of the world, and Marge has been to parts of Scandinavia, but it has escaped me, and I'm interested in seeing first hand what some allegedly truly socialist countries feel like.

And another by-the-way, I'm not trying to change the subject. I've said repeatedly that Snowden and Assange and Manning are heroes of mine, and if they are enemies of neoconservative Agent 008 and others, so be it.

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:55 pm

Tom Palven wrote: I've said repeatedly that Snowden and Assange and Manning are heroes of mine, and if they are enemies of neoconservative Agent 008 and others, so be it.
You are a complete idiot. I'm a member of the socialist Labor party. :lol:


It is you who wants to eliminate
1) All public education,
2) All public health funding
3) The FBI and CIA
4) All social welfare
5) remove all gun control

Have you ever looked at your own Libertarian Party's policies!
:lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I've said repeatedly that Snowden and Assange and Manning are heroes of mine, and if they are enemies of neoconservative Agent 008 and others, so be it.
You are a complete idiot. I'm a member of the socialist Labor party. :lol:


I don't follow Australian politics.
Is that like he National Socialist Workers Party?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: You are a complete idiot. I'm a member of the socialist Labor party. :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:Is that like he National Socialist Workers Party in Australia?


No Tom. It is like the Labor Party of the UK. That's why "Labor Party" is spelled the same way in, the UK and Australia,

Didn't they make a note about that on your Russian talk point sheet? :lol:

You really don't know anything about the rest of the world do you?

I assume you were home-schooled right?
:lol:

Tom Palven wrote:I don't follow Australian politics.
...or English or any other country . It is obvious you don't know anything that isn't on your Russian talk point sheet.. :lol:

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:26 pm

Tom Palven wrote: Btw, Marge and I will cruising to some ports in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia in April,....... I'm interested in seeing first hand what some allegedly truly socialist countries feel like.

Dan will be thrilled. Have you told him about your Libertarian policies of ending all gun control and ending all funding for public mental health. You share these views with Anders Breivik who protected himself against the Norwegian Labour Party by shooting 69 party members.

Tom Palven wrote:Peace, Tom
The irony of a pro-gun nut saying "peace" while spamming Russian talk points, is not lost on forum members. :lol:

Libertarian Party Policies
We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libert ... ontrol.htm

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8899
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby TJrandom » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:39 am

I am surprised that Libertarians use ‘we’ - as after all that smacks of socialism.

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2137
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby OutOfBreath » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:21 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Top of my head, you have Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Israel, Lebanon (Hizbollah), Turkey and Iraq involved in "the game" alongside the US. Atm Russia seems to have the upper hand in the melee as they help assure Assad's continued rule.
Don't forget the Kurds in Syria. They want a nation. :D

Oh i know. I was containing myself to the foreign actors involved. If I were to list all the internal factions I'd be sitting here all night. Point ofcourse being to show the presence of multiple actors and the complications therein.

Peace
Dan


I agree with you Dan that the Mid-East is a can of worms.

Indeed. You seem to credit the US a bit too much in that regard.

What just caught my eye was this alleged statistic that Norway has recently had 4 times the rate of certain mass murders than any other country.
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/compa ... nd-europe/

I know that figures lie and liars figure, but I thought I'd just run this by you for grins.

Not sure I was able to make heads or tails of those numbers, except the feeling that they were using a bit peculiar numbers or definitions. Norway is probably for our 1 attack ever. Looked weird regardless.

Btw, Marge and I will cruising to some ports in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia in April, along with other countries in the area. We've seen a lot of the world, and Marge has been to parts of Scandinavia, but it has escaped me, and I'm interested in seeing first hand what some allegedly truly socialist countries feel like.

Have a nice trip! I recommend my home-city Bergen. :)

And another by-the-way, I'm not trying to change the subject. I've said repeatedly that Snowden and Assange and Manning are heroes of mine, and if they are enemies of neoconservative Agent 008 and others, so be it.

Peace,
Tom

One's enemy's enemy isn't always one's friend is the long and short point of mine.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:05 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Btw, Marge and I will cruising to some ports in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia in April,....... I'm interested in seeing first hand what some allegedly truly socialist countries feel like.

Dan will be thrilled. Have you told him about your Libertarian policies of ending all gun control and ending all funding for public mental health. You share these views with Anders Breivik who protected himself against the Norwegian Labour Party by shooting 69 party members.

Tom Palven wrote:Peace, Tom
The irony of a pro-gun nut saying "peace" while spamming Russian talk points, is not lost on forum members. :lol:

Libertarian Party Policies
We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition.

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libert ... ontrol.htm


I haven't been a member of the Libertarian Party in decades and call myself an individualist, not a libertarian.

However, according to Wikipedia, the founder of The Skeptic Society, Dr. Michael Shermer, "has desribed hiumself as a life-long libertarian."

Scroll down to Personal Life, second sentence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:11 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Top of my head, you have Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Israel, Lebanon (Hizbollah), Turkey and Iraq involved in "the game" alongside the US. Atm Russia seems to have the upper hand in the melee as they help assure Assad's continued rule.
Don't forget the Kurds in Syria. They want a nation. :D

Oh i know. I was containing myself to the foreign actors involved. If I were to list all the internal factions I'd be sitting here all night. Point ofcourse being to show the presence of multiple actors and the complications therein.

Peace
Dan


I agree with you Dan that the Mid-East is a can of worms.

Indeed. You seem to credit the US a bit too much in that regard.

What just caught my eye was this alleged statistic that Norway has recently had 4 times the rate of certain mass murders than any other country.
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/compa ... nd-europe/

I know that figures lie and liars figure, but I thought I'd just run this by you for grins.

Not sure I was able to make heads or tails of those numbers, except the feeling that they were using a bit peculiar numbers or definitions. Norway is probably for our 1 attack ever. Looked weird regardless.

Btw, Marge and I will cruising to some ports in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia in April, along with other countries in the area. We've seen a lot of the world, and Marge has been to parts of Scandinavia, but it has escaped me, and I'm interested in seeing first hand what some allegedly truly socialist countries feel like.

Have a nice trip! I recommend my home-city Bergen. :)

And another by-the-way, I'm not trying to change the subject. I've said repeatedly that Snowden and Assange and Manning are heroes of mine, and if they are enemies of neoconservative Agent 008 and others, so be it.

Peace,
Tom

One's enemy's enemy isn't always one's friend is the long and short point of mine.

Peace
Dan


Stops are planned for a day in Flam, Stavenger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, all around Bergen, but I'm sure the whole area is beautiful.

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:09 pm

Tom Palven wrote: I haven't been a member of the Libertarian Party in decades
That's right. The Libertarian Party is complete nonsense. That's why you got so few votes when you stood as a Libertarian candidate. You then became a conspiracy theorist.

Tom Palven wrote: However, according to Wikipedia, the founder of The Skeptic Society, Dr. Michael Shermer, "has desribed hiumself as a life-long libertarian."
He did not join the Libertarian party and you never read the original article.

"Some people hate the word “libertarian.” I’m not crazy about it either, but haven’t thought of a better label....We all do this, of course, but I call myself a libertarian for the same reason I call myself a feminist, an atheist, and a pro-choicer — because it is the accepted language and we have to communicate ideas with language. But I much prefer to be assessed on specific issues..". Dr Michael Shermer.
https://michaelshermer.com/tag/libertarian/

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2137
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby OutOfBreath » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:24 am

Tom Palven wrote:Stops are planned for a day in Flam, Stavenger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, all around Bergen, but I'm sure the whole area is beautiful.

Peace,
Tom

Ah, it's a cruise, is it? I would say Bergen is way cooler than Stavanger, but I may be prejudiced. :) That means you'll be sailing through my world. Flåm is north and east of Bergen, so you will go past my resident city of Bergen, my birthplace in Haugesund, and my childhood town Skudenes on the way to Stavanger. Right past the cradle of the Norwegian nation on Karmøy where archeology traces back into the 6-700s on a former chieftain farm said to be inhabited by the famed first king of Norway.

If you go ashore in Flåm, which is a very small place, make sure to find the local store and buy some of the local "Ægir" beers. They're a craft beer brewery from Flåm who makes several nice kinds of ales.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:

Tom Palven wrote: However, according to Wikipedia, the founder of The Skeptic Society, Dr. Michael Shermer, "has desribed hiumself as a life-long libertarian."
He did not join the Libertarian party and you never read the original article.


That is a baseless, senseless, strawman quibble to try to make me look bad.

I didn't say that Dr. Shermer joined the Libertarian Party, and I accurately quoted the Wikipedia article using a small l for "libertarian."

Your comment is actually a type of distorted disinformation that secret police and politicians specialize in and what I have come to expect from you instead of rational dialogue. :roll:
Last edited by Tom Palven on Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:32 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Stops are planned for a day in Flam, Stavenger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, all around Bergen, but I'm sure the whole area is beautiful.

Peace,
Tom

Ah, it's a cruise, is it? I would say Bergen is way cooler than Stavanger, but I may be prejudiced. :) That means you'll be sailing through my world. Flåm is north and east of Bergen, so you will go past my resident city of Bergen, my birthplace in Haugesund, and my childhood town Skudenes on the way to Stavanger. Right past the cradle of the Norwegian nation on Karmøy where archeology traces back into the 6-700s on a former chieftain farm said to be inhabited by the famed first king of Norway.

If you go ashore in Flåm, which is a very small place, make sure to find the local store and buy some of the local "Ægir" beers. They're a craft beer brewery from Flåm who makes several nice kinds of ales.

Peace
Dan


Thanks for the info, Dan. You are giving me something to really look forward to and I'm starting to get excited about this trip.

I especially enjoy little quests like trying to locate the craft brews in Flam and perhaps the brewery.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:21 pm

Tom Palven wrote:That is a baseless, senseless, strawman quibble to try to make me look bad.

Firstly, I actually quoted Michael Shermer, which you never did nor actually read.

Secondly, all your posts make you look bad. That's why you never answer direct questions about your ridiculous conspiracy claims and scripted Russian talk points.
:lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:27 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:That is a baseless, senseless, strawman quibble to try to make me look bad.

Firstly, I actually quoted Michael Shermer, which you never did nor actually read.

Secondly, all your posts make you look bad. That's why you never answer direct questions about your ridiculous conspiracy claims and scripted Russian talk points.
:lol:


As usual your post is total unadulterated BS from beginning to end.

You want to change the subject to my allegedly ridiculous claims, but the OP is not about claims, but about opinions.

It is my opinion the Snowden, Assange, and Manning are heroes deserving of a statue.

It is your opinion that they are traitors that deserve to be captured and punished by the US government.

There doesn't seem to be any common ground between us so that should be the end of story, but you change the subject and then pretend that I do!

Too clever by half.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:36 am

Tom Palven wrote: It is your opinion that they are traitors that deserve to be captured and punished by the US government.
Where did I say that? Stop lying.

Australia asked Ecuador to give Assange a passport. They did. That knocked Assange out of any future political career in Australia. The UK then denied his court appeal against charges for skipping bail. That's because Nigel Farage was giving Assange USB sticks of ministerial information about Brexit, to hand over to the Russians.

Hopefully Nigel Farange and Julian Assange will share a cell in Belmarsh Prison, in the UK. (That's the "Category A" prison where they keep traitors and terrorists)
:lol:

( However Mueller has issued three sealed warrants destined for the UK and Nigel is probably going to the USA for a"long chat" followed by a one location holiday at the USA's expense. Assange may be going with Nigel on the second warrant. Perhaps they can share a cell there. ) :lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I've said repeatedly that Snowden and Assange and Manning are heroes of mine, and if they are enemies of neoconservative Agent 008 and others, so be it.
You are a complete idiot. I'm a member of the socialist Labor party. :lol:


I know nothing about Austrailian politics compared to what you know about US politics, Secret Agent 008, and am wondering if this is the Australian Socialist Labor Party that you are a member of:
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/bre ... -indicted/

It sounds like your party might be similar to the former National Socialist Workers Party of Denmark, although I admit I am pretty clueless about that, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... of_Denmark

Clueless in North America,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:04 am

Tom Palven wrote: I know nothing about Austrailian politics compared to what you know about US politics,
Yes. I am educated, whereas you can't even spell "Australian". I understand why you are jealous. :lol:

Tom Palven wrote: I am wondering if this is the Australian Socialist Labor Party that you are a member of:
Yes Tom. Two Australian Labor Party campaign workers worked for the Democrat campaign in 2016. Australian Rupert Murdoch's company supported Trump and the Republicans on his Fox News. Do you have any point at all?

Tom Palven wrote:I admit I am pretty clueless about that, too
There is nothing on this planet that you are not clueless about. :lol:

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:02 am

Tom Palven wrote: although I admit I am pretty clueless about that, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... of_Denmark


On the web page, you have linked, there is a big red circle with a swastika. This is the symbol of the pre war and wartime NAZI parties. You may even have heared about a person called Adolf Hitler when you were homed schooled.

If you read for the first time, what we call, a history book, you will learn all these really interesting facts. It will stop you looking like a complete idiot in the future.
:lol:
European history for dummies.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: I know nothing about Austrailian politics compared to what you know about US politics,
Yes. I am educated, whereas you can't even spell "Australian". I understand why you are jealous. :lol:


Glenn Greenwald's The Intercept lists the US, Austerallia, and Norway among "The Powerful Global Spy Alliance You Never Knew Existed."
https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-us/suite

I admit that I didn't know.

It seems hardly surprising, but it's still annoying to someone who has Edward Snowden and not James Clapper for a hero.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27857
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:48 am

Tom Palven wrote: Glenn Greenwald's The Intercept lists the US, Austerallia, and Norway among "The Powerful Global Spy Alliance You Never Knew Existed." https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-us/suite
That you also failed to link to.......

Tom Palven wrote:I admit that I didn't know.
No one here thinks you know anything. :D

Here is the actual Article you failed to link
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/01/nsa ... t-seniors/

The article is about Pacific Signals Intelligence because Australia/New Zealand has the better located listening posts and decryption technologies, whereas the NSA has more satellites. We also have "over the horizon radar" and holographic encryption communication links. As Australia fought in the Middle East in both WWI and WWII we also have similar capabilities and networks in that region.
https://www.asd.gov.au/

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Here is the actual Article you failed to link
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/01/nsa ... t-seniors/



Well done, 008.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Sun May 20, 2018 12:52 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Stops are planned for a day in Flam, Stavenger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, all around Bergen, but I'm sure the whole area is beautiful.

Peace,
Tom

Ah, it's a cruise, is it? I would say Bergen is way cooler than Stavanger, but I may be prejudiced. :) That means you'll be sailing through my world. Flåm is north and east of Bergen, so you will go past my resident city of Bergen, my birthplace in Haugesund, and my childhood town Skudenes on the way to Stavanger. Right past the cradle of the Norwegian nation on Karmøy where archeology traces back into the 6-700s on a former chieftain farm said to be inhabited by the famed first king of Norway.

If you go ashore in Flåm, which is a very small place, make sure to find the local store and buy some of the local "Ægir" beers. They're a craft beer brewery from Flåm who makes several nice kinds of ales.

Peace
Dan


Hi Dan,

We are back from Scandinavia, a very interesting and fun trip.

Flam is a charming little town and your advice about the Aegir beer was spot-on. We ordered the beer sampler and a cheese/meat/fish platter for two which was all good, and a fair price at 35 euros.
http://flamsbrygga.no/en/aegir-brewpub/

I especially liked the brown cheese, which was about milk chocolate in color, (not to be confused with the caramel-colored reindeer milk cheese that I tried elsewhere and which is definitely not for me.) and tasted something like a very salty blue cheese. I asked the friendly young man behind the counter what the brown cheese is called. He said it is just called brown cheese in Norwegian, and that it was produced in Undredal, which he wrote down for me. I looked for it in shops in Stavanger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, and found many different kinds of cheese, but not the brown cheese.

All those cities were beautiful and extremely clean. I wasn't too surprised by this since Scandinavians have a reputation for cleanliness and order bordering on the anal retentive, but those cities were even cleaner than Rotterdam and Copenhagen, and other cities we visited. This contrasts with the US, where only very rich cities like Indian Wells and Carmel-by-the-Sea California, Essex Fells, NJ, and gated communities everywhere are really clean.

Here in my town prisoners walk along US 1 with garbage bags picking up bottles, cans, hamburger wrappers, and so on, and after they've moved along a few hundred yards there is already garbage appearing behind them

I don't know why so many Americans are such slobs. Maybe philosopher Adam Smith could have explained it in The Filth of Nations if he had lived longer.

But, although everyone seemed well-dressed and happy and friendly in Norway, I still have questions about the wonders of socialism.

We heard it said several times by different people that Norway is rich, and that if it's oil income were distributed to all it's citizens that they would all be millionaires. But, Norway apparently has an income tax of 38%, a sales tax (VAT) of 25%, and a social security tax of 8.2%.

Our tour guide in Oslo, an older woman, told us that the retirement age which was once 62 is now 67 for maximum benefits, and is expected to go up to age 70. She said that this is because Norway has a labor shortage and it is necessary to keep people in the labor force longer.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed

This really doesn't compute for me, and I wonder why socialists who used to talk about a Worker's Paradise and the supposedly strong labor unions in Norway tolerate this?

Btw, Copenhagen, Denmark, was as close as we got to the Palvens around Malmo and Lund, Sweden.

I am not related to them, but have been curious about them since a did a google search years ago to see who shares the same name. At the time, there were Palvens in the chocolate candy business in that area, but I don't see that anymore.

As far as I know, only my cousin Professor Paul Palven who has been senile for years, my aging stepmother, and I are the only Palvens in the US and that the name will die out with us.

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2137
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby OutOfBreath » Tue May 22, 2018 8:56 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Hi Dan,

We are back from Scandinavia, a very interesting and fun trip.

Flam is a charming little town and your advice about the Aegir beer was spot-on. We ordered the beer sampler and a cheese/meat/fish platter for two which was all good, and a fair price at 35 euros.
http://flamsbrygga.no/en/aegir-brewpub/

I especially liked the brown cheese, which was about milk chocolate in color, (not to be confused with the caramel-colored reindeer milk cheese that I tried elsewhere and which is definitely not for me.) and tasted something like a very salty blue cheese. I asked the friendly young man behind the counter what the brown cheese is called. He said it is just called brown cheese in Norwegian, and that it was produced in Undredal, which he wrote down for me. I looked for it in shops in Stavanger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, and found many different kinds of cheese, but not the brown cheese.

Glad you enjoyed it!
As for "brown cheese" you could have bought it in just about any supermarket under the name "gudbrandsdalsost". I suspect what you tasted was something a bit more refined though.

All those cities were beautiful and extremely clean. I wasn't too surprised by this since Scandinavians have a reputation for cleanliness and order bordering on the anal retentive, but those cities were even cleaner than Rotterdam and Copenhagen, and other cities we visited. This contrasts with the US, where only very rich cities like Indian Wells and Carmel-by-the-Sea California, Essex Fells, NJ, and gated communities everywhere are really clean.

Here in my town prisoners walk along US 1 with garbage bags picking up bottles, cans, hamburger wrappers, and so on, and after they've moved along a few hundred yards there is already garbage appearing behind them

I don't know why so many Americans are such slobs. Maybe philosopher Adam Smith could have explained it in The Filth of Nations if he had lived longer.

Well, I think we get a bit help in western Norway from the 200 days a year of rain. ;)

But, although everyone seemed well-dressed and happy and friendly in Norway, I still have questions about the wonders of socialism.

We heard it said several times by different people that Norway is rich, and that if it's oil income were distributed to all it's citizens that they would all be millionaires. But, Norway apparently has an income tax of 38%, a sales tax (VAT) of 25%, and a social security tax of 8.2%.

It's true. But the one stroke of luck/genius our politicians did back in the 90s was to decide that we should really try not to flood our economy with all that money just for a big ride of inflation in it's wake. So the oil money is cordoned off somewhat from the national budget, and put into a "pension fund" (second only to the Qataris I think). They stated a "rule" in so that no more than 4% of that money should be used at any time (assuming 4% was roughly the longterm profit rate). Breaking that line is considered reckless economics and is avoided. Furthermore, we have a big and generous welfare state that provide all health, schooling and tons of other stuff. Hence relatively high tax rates (as we always did have). Note that Sweden and Denmark are also doing pretty good, without a drop of oil or similar. Hence the scandinavian welfare model.

Our tour guide in Oslo, an older woman, told us that the retirement age which was once 62 is now 67 for maximum benefits, and is expected to go up to age 70. She said that this is because Norway has a labor shortage and it is necessary to keep people in the labor force longer.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed

Well, that's a bit technical. We did have a pension reform whose aim was to lower long term costs of retirees with an aging population. So you have to work longer now for the same pension, true. However, we have really abolished a pension age entirely in principle. You can retire at 62 if you so wish (and keep working while receiving the money), but that will be at reduced rates overall. So you have to work until about 70 to earn the same pension one would at a couple of 60 before. But this is still messy with public employees having one sort of (myriad) deals still, while the private sector has largely another etc. The principles have been set, but not entirely carried out you might say. Shortly put: Retire whenever you want, but you get more the longer you wait.

This really doesn't compute for me, and I wonder why socialists who used to talk about a Worker's Paradise and the supposedly strong labor unions in Norway tolerate this?
[/quote]
I doubt labour unions have much more clout anywhere else really. I could go into it in looong detail, but suffice to say that wages in Norway are set by central negotiations between the major labour unions and the major employer organizations with the state facilitating. This relation enables us to have very moderate wage demands in low times, and more frisky ones when times are good. It's all a big coop essentially with these central negotiations setting the bar for other more local negotiations, and also sets the minimum wage by tariff for a profession if it is sufficiently unionized. Meaning, it applies also to all other unorganized workers.

Glad you enjoyed the trip, and I'm always around to explain the complexities of "socialist utopia". (To be fair though, Scandinavian countries are mostly social democracies mixed with liberalism. The latter often passing for conservative politics around here)

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Wed May 23, 2018 12:51 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Hi Dan,

We are back from Scandinavia, a very interesting and fun trip.

Flam is a charming little town and your advice about the Aegir beer was spot-on. We ordered the beer sampler and a cheese/meat/fish platter for two which was all good, and a fair price at 35 euros.
http://flamsbrygga.no/en/aegir-brewpub/

I especially liked the brown cheese, which was about milk chocolate in color, (not to be confused with the caramel-colored reindeer milk cheese that I tried elsewhere and which is definitely not for me.) and tasted something like a very salty blue cheese. I asked the friendly young man behind the counter what the brown cheese is called. He said it is just called brown cheese in Norwegian, and that it was produced in Undredal, which he wrote down for me. I looked for it in shops in Stavanger, Kristiansand, and Oslo, and found many different kinds of cheese, but not the brown cheese.

Glad you enjoyed it!
As for "brown cheese" you could have bought it in just about any supermarket under the name "gudbrandsdalsost". I suspect what you tasted was something a bit more refined though.

All those cities were beautiful and extremely clean. I wasn't too surprised by this since Scandinavians have a reputation for cleanliness and order bordering on the anal retentive, but those cities were even cleaner than Rotterdam and Copenhagen, and other cities we visited. This contrasts with the US, where only very rich cities like Indian Wells and Carmel-by-the-Sea California, Essex Fells, NJ, and gated communities everywhere are really clean.

Here in my town prisoners walk along US 1 with garbage bags picking up bottles, cans, hamburger wrappers, and so on, and after they've moved along a few hundred yards there is already garbage appearing behind them

I don't know why so many Americans are such slobs. Maybe philosopher Adam Smith could have explained it in The Filth of Nations if he had lived longer.

Well, I think we get a bit help in western Norway from the 200 days a year of rain. ;)

But, although everyone seemed well-dressed and happy and friendly in Norway, I still have questions about the wonders of socialism.

We heard it said several times by different people that Norway is rich, and that if it's oil income were distributed to all it's citizens that they would all be millionaires. But, Norway apparently has an income tax of 38%, a sales tax (VAT) of 25%, and a social security tax of 8.2%.

It's true. But the one stroke of luck/genius our politicians did back in the 90s was to decide that we should really try not to flood our economy with all that money just for a big ride of inflation in it's wake. So the oil money is cordoned off somewhat from the national budget, and put into a "pension fund" (second only to the Qataris I think). They stated a "rule" in so that no more than 4% of that money should be used at any time (assuming 4% was roughly the longterm profit rate). Breaking that line is considered reckless economics and is avoided. Furthermore, we have a big and generous welfare state that provide all health, schooling and tons of other stuff. Hence relatively high tax rates (as we always did have). Note that Sweden and Denmark are also doing pretty good, without a drop of oil or similar. Hence the scandinavian welfare model.

Our tour guide in Oslo, an older woman, told us that the retirement age which was once 62 is now 67 for maximum benefits, and is expected to go up to age 70. She said that this is because Norway has a labor shortage and it is necessary to keep people in the labor force longer.
https://www.professionalpensions.com/gl ... e-proposed

Well, that's a bit technical. We did have a pension reform whose aim was to lower long term costs of retirees with an aging population. So you have to work longer now for the same pension, true. However, we have really abolished a pension age entirely in principle. You can retire at 62 if you so wish (and keep working while receiving the money), but that will be at reduced rates overall. So you have to work until about 70 to earn the same pension one would at a couple of 60 before. But this is still messy with public employees having one sort of (myriad) deals still, while the private sector has largely another etc. The principles have been set, but not entirely carried out you might say. Shortly put: Retire whenever you want, but you get more the longer you wait.

This really doesn't compute for me, and I wonder why socialists who used to talk about a Worker's Paradise and the supposedly strong labor unions in Norway tolerate this?

I doubt labour unions have much more clout anywhere else really. I could go into it in looong detail, but suffice to say that wages in Norway are set by central negotiations between the major labour unions and the major employer organizations with the state facilitating. This relation enables us to have very moderate wage demands in low times, and more frisky ones when times are good. It's all a big coop essentially with these central negotiations setting the bar for other more local negotiations, and also sets the minimum wage by tariff for a profession if it is sufficiently unionized. Meaning, it applies also to all other unorganized workers.

Glad you enjoyed the trip, and I'm always around to explain the complexities of "socialist utopia". (To be fair though, Scandinavian countries are mostly social democracies mixed with liberalism. The latter often passing for conservative politics around here)

Peace
Dan


I just ordered 500 gr of Gudbrandsdalsost from NorHouse, and if it arrives I'll tell you about it. :)
https://www.norhouse.com/finishorder.php
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5170
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:24 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:As for "brown cheese" you could have bought it in just about any supermarket under the name "gudbrandsdalsost". I suspect what you tasted was something a bit more refined though.

Peace
Dan


I finally opened the package of brown cheese that I got on line at a family gathering yesterday where we also tried some moose meat salami we brought back, and Marge showed a video she made of our trip to Scandinavia.

Everyone liked the salami on crackers and most thought that the cheese was excellent, although my niece thought it was a little too "farmy" for her, a word that she she might have just made up.

I just ordered another package to share with our friend Bill Smith and his wife Lee, who is of Norwegian extraction, when we see them next.
https://www.norhouse.com/finishorder.php

Peace,
Tom
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire


Return to “Politics and Government”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests