Death Penalty

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Hex
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:59 am

ALF wrote:It is really very simple, Hex.

There are only three options for possible causes for violent anti-social behaviour:

1. Genetic inheritance
2. Environmental influences
3. Neither of the above.

In case 3. it must be something outside of inheritance and environmental influences, that leaves only the supernatural (like the devil made him do it).

This is hardly an explanation of violence. Just a belief that has no scientific fact.

This leaves the question unanswered: why did the devil do it to someone and not someone else?

Your right but you wanted me to answer this question for you, which I said I couldn't.

He was either the victim of his genetics/environment, or he was a victim of the devil.

There is theories that the Warrior gene supports your genetic theory, but because science exercises peer review , there is a long way to go.

tldr: Using gene's to predict how a child will be in the future, is misguided at this point as the Warrior gene hasn't proved that this was the smoking gun, and how irresponsible it is to use for society. It is no better than the "lie detector." (Oh, and Dr, Phil is a destructive dick.)

Nor, is the nature/nurture a indicator.

In either case, he was a victim and, in his horrible fate (with the cooperation of many, many other twisted and sick minds) he piled up millions of dead bodies in his wake.

There were enough people that bought into the kool-aid. I doubt the millions that did were also psychopaths.

Do I want to excuse him? Of course not -- society needs to protect itself against sociopaths.

How do you propose this? Psychopath's hardly reveal themselves until they are caught by the authorities. How many times do you hear that these psychopaths seemed like good people by their neighbors, having a loving family life, but live this evil alternate life. Hind-sight is all you got, but the damage is done.

As in the article above, we have no way to predict who will or will-not become violent or a psychopath.

Do I need to hate him? What good would hate do? You need to isolate him, like a leprosy patient, so he can't harm anyone.

I'm pretty sure that the affected family/friends would have a very different out-look.

Killing anyone, unless the person requests it, is murder.

I've said so all along. So, I'm still not getting what your point is.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by moth1ne » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:16 am

Rob Lister wrote:...Today, the best I can do is ask myself how much it is going to cost to keep this ... person confined for the next 21 years. He may not actually get out in 21 years; in theory they can hold him indefinitely. They probably will.

Interesting bit of information I found:
$1.94 billion--Pre-Trial and Trial Costs
$925 million--Automatic Appeals and State Habeas Corpus Petitions
$775 million--Federal Habeas Corpus Appeals
$1 billion--Costs of Incarceration

The authors calculated that [in California], if the Governor commuted the sentences of those remaining on death row to life without parole, it would result in an immediate savings of $170 million per year, with a savings of $5 billion over the next 20 years.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

It seems that the first inclination is to assume that keeping an inmate in prison for life is ultimately more costly than just putting him/her to death but that isn't necessarily true...

The costs of putting someone down is quite expensive.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by moth1ne » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:21 am

I also found this article that pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter...

FIXED
Last edited by moth1ne on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:57 pm

Hex wrote:
ALF wrote:It is really very simple, Hex.

There are only three options for possible causes for violent anti-social behaviour:

1. Genetic inheritance
2. Environmental influences
3. Neither of the above.

In case 3. it must be something outside of inheritance and environmental influences, that leaves only the supernatural (like the devil made him do it).

This is hardly an explanation of violence. Just a belief that has no scientific fact.


No, Hex, it is a logically complete analysis: It is either 1., or 2. or something else (which can be a combination of things).

It covers ALL the possible logical cases.

In either case THERE IS A CAUSE. We may not know what it is but a cause there must be, or there would not be an effect.

Hitler was a newly born baby once. On day one, he was just lying there with a clean mind, no evil thoughts lurking yet.

Would you have strangled him right then and there, in his crib, or maybe (even if you knew what he could become) take him out of his environment (family, society, historical Germany, etc) and take him to a completely different environment where he would have grown up with a lot of love, healthy stimulation, lots of opportunities to become a decent member of the human species?

If your answer is negative, then you believe in the "original sin", assuming that some people are born evil, in spite of everything that the environment can do.

Even if this were the case (which I doubt) it still is not the baby's fault, being the victim of this kind of predetermination.

The Nazis tried to find the signs of criminality, based on skull formation, etc., and speculated that it would be possible to predict early on which baby would become a criminal. They never got very far with it but, had they won the war, they might have put infanticide into practice, based on predictions of criminality.

What a great world it would have been!

Sorry guys, you can't have it both ways.

Either a person is born already evil, or he becomes one due to some causes: in either case, it is not the person's fault: he is a victim of these causes, just like we all are victims of our genetic makeup and of whatever affected us in our lives.
Last edited by ALF on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:27 pm

ALF wrote:Sorry guys, you can't have it both ways.


I don't know what 'guys' you're referring to here but your entire argument is nothing more than the 'victim of society' shtick on steroids with supernatural devils thrown in for flavor.

If you favor that kind of thinking, fine. Is that kind of thinking useful to society; would it make us more or less safe? You'd have to address that as well. Can you?
Skeptic much? Sure you do.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:35 pm

ALF wrote:
There are only three options for possible causes for violent anti-social behaviour:

1. Genetic inheritance
2. Environmental influences
3. Neither of the above.

In case 3. it must be something outside of inheritance and environmental influences, that leaves only the supernatural (like the devil made him do it).

This is hardly an explanation of violence. Just a belief that has no scientific fact.


No, Hex, it is a logically complete analysis: It is either 1., or 2. or something else (which can be a combination of things).

It covers ALL the possible logical cases.
It covers them twice 1 and 2 together cover the causes of animal behaviour.
Last edited by SweetPea on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:38 pm

Hah?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:39 pm

ALF wrote:Hah?
Genetics and environmental influence explain behaviour.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:49 pm

Isn't that what I said?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:43 pm

ALF wrote:
Hex wrote:
ALF wrote:It is really very simple, Hex.

There are only three options for possible causes for violent anti-social behaviour:

1. Genetic inheritance
2. Environmental influences
3. Neither of the above.

In case 3. it must be something outside of inheritance and environmental influences, that leaves only the supernatural (like the devil made him do it).

This is hardly an explanation of violence. Just a belief that has no scientific fact.


No, Hex, it is a logically complete analysis: It is either 1., or 2. or something else (which can be a combination of things).

Hand waving #3 does nothing for your credulity. It is your making ability to clearly state just what #3 represents just means it is a side door that you can leave then when something comes along that somewhat proves what you are saying you can trot back in the front door and present it as fact. #3 covers every base without having to prove a point. Anybody trying to have a debate under these conditions is a fool. You've set the parameters and refuse to read or understand what other people have posted. I won't continue this as you refuse to believe that there are more qualified people who disagree with what you believe. I'll continue to believe the experts, in this field, over someone that has no intention to debate, the issue at hand.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:36 pm

Hex wrote:
ALF wrote:
Hex wrote:
ALF wrote:It is really very simple, Hex.

There are only three options for possible causes for violent anti-social behaviour:

1. Genetic inheritance
2. Environmental influences
3. Neither of the above.

In case 3. it must be something outside of inheritance and environmental influences, that leaves only the supernatural (like the devil made him do it).

This is hardly an explanation of violence. Just a belief that has no scientific fact.


No, Hex, it is a logically complete analysis: It is either 1., or 2. or something else (which can be a combination of things).

Hand waving #3 does nothing for your credulity.
Credulity?
It is your making ability to clearly state just what #3 represents just means it is a side door that you can leave then when something comes along that somewhat proves what you are saying you can trot back in the front door and present it as fact. #3 covers every base without having to prove a point.
Or having a reason to be numbered.

Anybody trying to have a debate under these conditions is a fool.
Talking climate science now and I'm in agreement.
I'd add that #3 has no reason to be there, because everything possible in behaviour is covered by 1 and 2. Even by 2 alone. The environment is everything unless one chooses to remove a person from everything and consider the rest to be what's "out there" externally.

On this angle I might seem to slightly agree with Alf's thinking, in that when people gesture at the "what's out there", they gesture as if to include the "surface and above". The Heavens and The Earth. When differentiating "selfs" from everything external, then 1 exists for a reason, I suppose. That is why including 1, genetics, seems to be similar to a religious pattern of thought, or at least on the same level.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:31 pm

ALF wrote:
In either case THERE IS A CAUSE. We may not know what it is but a cause there must be, or there would not be an effect.

Hitler was a newly born baby once. On day one, he was just lying there with a clean mind, no evil thoughts lurking yet.

Would you have strangled him right then and there, in his crib, or maybe (even if you knew what he could become) take him out of his environment (family, society, historical Germany, etc) and take him to a completely different environment where he would have grown up with a lot of love, healthy stimulation, lots of opportunities to become a decent member of the human species?

If your answer is negative, then you believe in the "original sin", assuming that some people are born evil, in spite of everything that the environment can do.

Even if this were the case (which I doubt) it still is not the baby's fault, being the victim of this kind of predetermination.

The Nazis tried to find the signs of criminality, based on skull formation, etc., and speculated that it would be possible to predict early on which baby would become a criminal. They never got very far with it but, had they won the war, they might have put infanticide into practice, based on predictions of criminality.

What a great world it would have been!

Sorry guys, you can't have it both ways.

Either a person is born already evil, or he becomes one due to some causes: in either case, it is not the person's fault: he is a victim of these causes, just like we all are victims of our genetic makeup and of whatever affected us in our lives.


Hex,

This the tiny little part of my post that you TOTALLY ignored.

And you say that I don't debate? :lol:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:50 pm

SweetPea wrote:I'd add that #3 has no reason to be there, because everything possible in behaviour is covered by 1 and 2. Even by 2 alone. The environment is everything unless one chooses to remove a person from everything and consider the rest to be what's "out there" externally.

This is flawed thinking. Alf wishes to put everything and everybody in these nice little boxes, put a bow on top and declare the problem solved. Nature/nurture plays a part in a individual's growth. But, so does logic, determination etc. If everyone could be laced into these convenient categories how do you get these people, under the worst of conditions, rise above that, take control of their lives and become something even with the odds stacked against them. 1 & 2 do not satisfy this situation. So, what do you have... that elusive #3, that tells you nothing.

On this angle I might seem to slightly agree with Alf's thinking, in that when people gesture at the "what's out there", they gesture as if to include the "surface and above". The Heavens and The Earth. When differentiating "selfs" from everything external, then 1 exists for a reason, I suppose. That is why including 1, genetics, seems to be similar to a religious pattern of thought, or at least on the same level.

Wishes, beliefs and faith are not a good platform for a debate. How you can entwine religion and genetics in the same sentence is beyond me.

Again this argument seems to rely on #3, Which puts your debate in the false cause/genetics/appeal to nature- trifecta. I wonder if this is some kind of record.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:59 pm

Hex wrote: Alf wishes to put everything and everybody in these nice little boxes, put a bow on top and declare the problem solved..


Alf wishes you to follow logic where logic leads.

Ignoring most of it won't do. :roll:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:42 pm

Hex wrote:
SweetPea wrote:I'd add that #3 has no reason to be there, because everything possible in behaviour is covered by 1 and 2. Even by 2 alone. The environment is everything unless one chooses to remove a person from everything and consider the rest to be what's "out there" externally.

This is flawed thinking. Alf wishes to put everything and everybody in these nice little boxes, put a bow on top and declare the problem solved. Nature/nurture plays a part in a individual's growth. But, so does logic, determination etc. If everyone could be laced into these convenient categories how do you get these people, under the worst of conditions, rise above that, take control of their lives and become something even with the odds stacked against them. 1 & 2 do not satisfy this situation. So, what do you have... that elusive #3, that tells you nothing.

On this angle I might seem to slightly agree with Alf's thinking, in that when people gesture at the "what's out there", they gesture as if to include the "surface and above". The Heavens and The Earth. When differentiating "selfs" from everything external, then 1 exists for a reason, I suppose. That is why including 1, genetics, seems to be similar to a religious pattern of thought, or at least on the same level.

Wishes, beliefs and faith are not a good platform for a debate. How you can entwine religion and genetics in the same sentence is beyond me.

Again this argument seems to rely on #3, Which puts your debate in the false cause/genetics/appeal to nature- trifecta. I wonder if this is some kind of record.
It's only that I see similar thought patterns in that way of thinking (that genetics are distinct from the environment - which is everything). Where can the line be drawn between the self and environment ? Does air coming toward the nostrils become part of self at entry to nostril ? And stop being self when exiting ? The oxygen in the blood, is that self or environment ?

The genes themselves are of the environment, and the genetics even more evidently so.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:49 pm

SweetPea wrote:The genes themselves are of the environment, and the genetics even more evidently so.


I like that -- simplifies the issue, doesn't it?

However, still no one answered my question: would you have strangled baby Hitler in the crib, or you would have tried something else instead?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:24 pm

Consider the genes of germs. Germs would be environment compared to self. The germs' genes being part of the germ, are part of environment in regard to self.

So germ genes are part of environment, unless we call the germ a "self", and our human genes are then environment.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:27 pm

ALF wrote:
SweetPea wrote:The genes themselves are of the environment, and the genetics even more evidently so.


I like that -- simplifies the issue, doesn't it?

However, still no one answered my question: would you have strangled baby Hitler in the crib, or you would have tried something else instead?

It seems to simplify things, but once there is no differentiation, it has no explanatory power.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:00 am

ALF wrote:
SweetPea wrote:However, still no one answered my question: would you have strangled baby Hitler in the crib, or you would have tried something else instead?
There are programs starting up to identify abuser types or likely sociopaths in early childhood - and treat them on that basis. Profilers.
If they gain popularity there will be lots of Li'l Hitlers under supervision..
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:22 am

Oh, what a Brave New World it will be.... the Nazis would be salivating! :shock:

...and you still did not answer my question.

...and it was such a simple question! :roll:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:41 am

ALF wrote:Oh, what a Brave New World it will be.... the Nazis would be salivating! :shock:

...and you still did not answer my question.

...and it was such a simple question! :roll:
Does it involve getting caught?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:48 am

No.

And, from your question I assume you would have no problem murdering a newborn baby, instead of trying to change the environment?

Am I right?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:12 am

ALF wrote:No.

And, from your question I assume you would have no problem murdering a newborn baby, instead of trying to change the environment?

Am I right?
Just a swift boot to the Mommie's stomach if nobody was looking ? Introduce an environmental change, so to speak ?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:14 am

'Cause "Newborn Baby Hitler" sounds so cute.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:18 am

How about kicking Dad in the sack, on the fateful night ?

I think I would be able to do that without a problem..
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:19 am

'Admirable' attitude, sweetie!
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:24 am

Normal humans have an aversion to the idea of killing newborn babies and to killing them.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:30 am

So we elect people to tell other people to get rid of problems for us. Abortionists take care of things in that way.
This is no different than getting a vet to put down a pet. Killing Big Hitler is not that much of a problem to think about because he by then has gone through the transformative events that make him Big Hitler. .

Genes do not make Hitler.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:33 am

Sweet thing, you are really disgusting.

But I am sure you know it and get a kick out of it.

I am done talking to you. :roll:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:47 am

Was it something I said?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:22 am

It needed a peculiar set of conditions in order for Baby HItler to become Big Hitler.
Genes did not make Hitler, so killing a newborn would not have been.killing Hitler.
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by SweetPea » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:37 am

ALF wrote:Sweet thing, you are really disgusting.

But I am sure you know it and get a kick out of it.

I am done talking to you. :roll:
That's how you treat the only person to address the big question?
How do the Deniers get so lucky?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:29 am

SweetPea wrote:
ALF wrote:Sweet thing, you are really disgusting.

But I am sure you know it and get a kick out of it.

I am done talking to you. :roll:
That's how you treat the only person to address the big question?

Which is why no one was willing to take the bait, It was a no win situation. ALF isn't looking for discourse, ALF wants to make you believe what he thinks, then accuse you of not understanding his question while ignoring your answers.

Take your choice...these are classic false cause, tu quoque, ad hominem and a loaded question. All four have been masterfully employed, if your not familiar with them.

Trolls live on controversy, let this thread die.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:00 pm

Hex wrote: let this thread die.


...and your ability to follow simple logic die with it.

Hex, you are pathetic.

You make these wild accusations, instead of answering a simple question I asked three times already.

I guess you are afraid of where that line of logic would lead you.

...and you call yourself a debater? :lol:
Nothing.....just screaming....

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Hex
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:47 pm

ALF wrote:
Hex wrote: let this thread die.
and your ability to follow simple logic die with it.

Oh... the irony.
Spoiler:
  TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER
 


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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:00 pm

You can post silly nonsense, instead of answering my legitimate and perfectly rational questions.

Aren't you embarrassed yet?

You should be. :roll:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:14 pm

I will make it easy for you and repeat the whole post, with serious, relevant and legitimate questions that you have consistently refused to answer.

ALF wrote:
In either case THERE IS A CAUSE. We may not know what it is but a cause there must be, or there would not be an effect.

Hitler was a newly born baby once. On day one, he was just lying there with a clean mind, no evil thoughts lurking yet.

Would you have strangled him right then and there, in his crib, or maybe (even if you knew what he could become) take him out of his environment (family, society, historical Germany, etc) and take him to a completely different environment where he would have grown up with a lot of love, healthy stimulation, lots of opportunities to become a decent member of the human species?

If your answer is negative, then you believe in the "original sin", assuming that some people are born evil, in spite of everything that the environment can do.

Even if this were the case (which I doubt) it still is not the baby's fault, being the victim of this kind of predetermination.

The Nazis tried to find the signs of criminality, based on skull formation, etc., and speculated that it would be possible to predict early on which baby would become a criminal. They never got very far with it but, had they won the war, they might have put infanticide into practice, based on predictions of criminality.

What a great world it would have been!

Sorry guys, you can't have it both ways.

Either a person is born already evil, or he becomes one due to some causes: in either case, it is not the person's fault: he is a victim of these causes, just like we all are victims of our genetic makeup and of whatever affected us in our lives.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:16 am

Dear Hex,

By being unable and/or unwilling to reply to the simplest of questions, you have lost all credibility with me and now you can join the other two in my noise-filter list. You will be in good, like-minded company there. Enjoy each other.

I won't see any more of your posts so don't bother talking to me any more.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Alexander941 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:00 pm

A question about prisons:

What do you think about another solution, instead of putting different offenders in the same Prison-system(and turning some pickpockets into real criminals) , society could put those, who are less dangerous/agressive, live in some sort of "gated communities", let them organize their life by themselves, and work in that environment, only prevent them from leaving, which would not cost that much money.

There are people which are not brutal serial killers etc. but which i wouldn't want back on the streets, like child molesters, but there is also no need to lock them up and guard them in a maximum security prison forever.

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:15 pm

Ahhh... poor me. ALF took his baseball and went home. I guess dissenting opinions, failure to answer questions put out for him to answer and calling him out was too hard for his sensitive we being.

Stay strong brother, stay strong...
Spoiler:
  TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER