Death Penalty

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Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:31 pm

I used to make long, scholarly posts, arguing a case basing my arguments on basic principles and deducing my conclusion with strict logic.

It never worked and it took a lot out of me.

After 12 years of arguing on different forums, I decided to take it easy and summarize ALL my arguments as succinctly as I can, usually in poetry.

So, here it comes, ALL my arguments regarding the issue of death penalty:

Death Penalty

Sick bodies, sick minds
dwell in the midst of us.
Sick bodies we cure if we can,
isolate if we must -
killing them would be:
murder.

Sick minds, we hate, fear, destroy,
in cold, methodical ways,
brushing aside pleas for mercy,
cries for compassion,
and only God can forgive us
if we made a mistake:

Our victim is past forgiveness.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:38 pm

I'm for it on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.
I'm against it on Tuesdays, Thursday's and Saturdays.
On Sundays I try not to think about it.

Some folks really need killing. So there's that.
It's hard to ferret out those that really do from those that kinda don't. So there's that too.
It's pretty low on my activism priority list; right below boycotting Blockbuster (which was a success!)
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:53 pm

I'm agin it. Coz the Law is people, an' peoples is fallible, an' stuff. An' iffin we alls make a mistake, dead men don't accept no apologies. They just haunts ya. Forever.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:50 pm

Rob Lister wrote:Some folks really need killing


Please define 'need' (in the context of this thread).
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:00 pm

ALF wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Some folks really need killing


Please define 'need' (in the context of this thread).


What day is today? In my time zone it is Saturday. You'll have to wait until Monday for your answer.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:03 pm

I am holding my breath! :lol:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:07 pm

ALF wrote:I am holding my breath! :lol:


You shoulda picked the other-handed quote.

Alternately, we can talk about my single-person boycott of Blockbuster and how insodoing I succeeded in all but destroying them.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:11 pm

If you want to derail this thread, there is nothing I can do about it.

I thought this topic was important enough to take seriously. Obviously, you don't.

Oh well, maybe someone else wants to consider it?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:25 pm

In my opinion, one, single, innocent person executed obliviates the Rule of Law.

But in some places. Twelve innocents per thousand is an acceptable tolerance.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:29 pm

ALF wrote:If you want to derail this thread, there is nothing I can do about it.

I thought this topic was important enough to take seriously. Obviously, you don't.

Oh well, maybe someone else wants to consider it?


Creating a post to complain about a derailing post is in itself a derailing post and invites further derailing posts in reply. To minimize derailing, stay on topic. On the other hand, you could have used the derail as a springboard to discuss your own poetic views of what 'needs killing' means to you. Do the lemon/lemonade thing.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:32 pm

:roll:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:42 pm

ALF wrote::roll:

Please stop derailing the thread.


Major Malfunction wrote:In my opinion, one, single, innocent person executed obliviates the Rule of Law.


:?:
The rule of law is a legal maxim whereby governmental decisions are made by applying known legal principles.[2] How does a wrongful execution remove that from existence?

footnotes
2 Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, page 1196 (West Publishing Company 1979).
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:51 pm

The State becomes a murderer, and must be executed, by its own laws.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:01 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:The State becomes a murderer, and must be executed, by its own laws.


Murder, in terms of the Rule of Law, is a term equating to unlawful killing. The death penalty is legal according to the Rule of Law. Ergo, it is not murder. Morally, I think it is (today, anyway), but your logic fails.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:09 pm

I don't care. Lawfully murdering people is murdering people.

Twist your words. It doesn't change the act.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:27 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:I don't care. Lawfully murdering people is murdering people.

Twist your words. It doesn't change the act.


No words were twisted in the making of my posts. I thought you were making a serious assertion, I didn't understand it, so I asked. You responded with a non sequitur. Now I know it was just an poorly articulated emotional appeal. Sorry for taking you seriously.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:37 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
ALF wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Some folks really need killing


Please define 'need' (in the context of this thread).


What day is today? In my time zone it is Saturday. You'll have to wait until Monday for your answer.

Anyone who can't (or won't) define a single word he used, in less than 2 days, has lost all credibility.

Up to that reply I took you seriously. Now you are just noise, as far as I am concerned.

I just put you into my noise-filter. I won't see any more of your posts, so don't bother.

Hopefully others will join this thread with intelligent arguments.
Last edited by ALF on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:40 pm

Murdering people is murdering people. I don't know how to justify or sanction the act, except in self defence. And so, we are of two minds.

Why do you seem to require valediction for murder?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:46 pm

ALF wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
ALF wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Some folks really need killing


Please define 'need' (in the context of this thread).


What day is today? In my time zone it is Saturday. You'll have to wait until Monday for your answer.

Anyone who can't (or won't) define a single word he used, in less than 2 days, has lost all credibility. Up to that reply I took you seriously. Now you are just noise, as far as I am concerned. I just put you into my noise-filter. I won't see any more of your posts, so don't bother.


Everything in your post was [yet again] off-topic. If you have something to write regarding the death penalty, or my views on it, feel free. If it rhymes, all the better. Use a different tempo for flavor.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:52 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Murdering people is murdering people. I don't know how to justify or sanction the act, except in self defence. And so, we are of two minds.

Why do you seem to require valediction for murder?

Why do I require valediction? That makes no sense. But, if you use the word murder in the context of the rule of law, I have to assume you are using the legal definition. Turns out you just didn't understand what you were writing. That isn't my fault. I'm really willing to work with you here; I'll do my best to figure out what you mean.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:08 pm

I meant validation.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:21 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:I meant validation.


Fine. Then you asked:

Major Malfunction wrote:Why do you seem to require validation for murder?


Which still doesn't make sense in the context of the discussion. Try again.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:27 pm

I don't understand the requirement for murder.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:37 pm

I don't understand murder.

Why?

Why except in self-defence?

There is no reason.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:04 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:I don't understand the requirement for murder.


It's a bitch understanding anything when you can't remove your emotions from the subject being discussed.

Here's your likely syllogism

All murder is wrong
The death penalty is murder
The death penalty is wrong.

Can you spot the emotion?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:52 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:I don't understand murder. Why except in self-defence?


I guess that knocking off the enemy soldier is self defence. What about his political boss? What if we are not at war, but knocking off a political boss prevents war? I think every case is slightly different and that's why every case has to be judicial and stand on its own.

However I agree with your prime view that, when murder is not the only option, then all other options need to be exploited first. We can't have humans knocking off other humans simply because it's easy and economically cheaper. That would be a disaster.

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:22 am

I don't care for any justifications. Murder is wrong.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by nmblum88 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:24 am

ALF wrote:I am holding my breath! :lol:


Not exactly the way to defeat a proponent of the death penalty.


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Re: Death Penalty

Post by nmblum88 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:36 am

Major Malfunction wrote:I don't care for any justifications. Murder is wrong.

And State ordained murder is infinitely more repellant: when the State takes it upon itself to take a life, all of us become complicit in the act, and thus murderers as well...
Why would anyone with a sense of self opt to allow such a thing?
Besides, while justice is clearly not at the top of our current list of desirable aspirations for our society, still... still... the idea that if one innocent man is saved from the hangman by our collective restraint in the matter of the death penalty, while ten clearly guilty perpetrators are thereby spared, that is as close to justice as we are likely to come any time soon.


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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:46 am

Rob Lister wrote:
ALF wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Some folks really need killing

Please define 'need' (in the context of this thread).

What day is today? In my time zone it is Saturday. You'll have to wait until Monday for your answer.


nmblum wrote:
ALF wrote:I am holding my breath! :lol:

Not exactly the way to defeat a proponent of the death penalty.
NMB


That was the only possible answer to the stupid reply I received to my completely reasonable and legitimate question, as you know it very well. :roll:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:13 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:I don't understand murder. Why except in self-defence?


I guess that knocking off the enemy soldier is self defence. What about his political boss? What if we are not at war, but knocking off a political boss prevents war? I think every case is slightly different and that's why every case has to be judicial and stand on its own.

However I agree with your prime view that, when murder is not the only option, then all other options need to be exploited first. We can't have humans knocking off other humans simply because it's easy and economically cheaper. That would be a disaster.


Capital punishment isn't sought for reasons of economics or ease; it is clearly cheaper and easier to warehouse offenders, at least under our system. It is a punishment. Is it a deterrent to others? I doubt it.

But is [the threat of] it a useful tool in prosecutorial deal-making? That may be its biggest virtue. Even absent the actual end punishment--which may not even occur--the conditions of incarceration for a death row inmate are tantamount to a life sentence in solitary confinement. That's real bargaining power there.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Major Malfunction » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:17 am

nmblum wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:I don't care for any justifications. Murder is wrong.

And State ordained murder is infinitely more repellant: when the State takes it upon itself to take a life, all of us become complicit in the act, and thus murderers as well...
Why would anyone with a sense of self opt to allow such a thing?
Besides, while justice is clearly not at the top of our current list of desirable aspirations for our society, still... still... the idea that if one innocent man is saved from the hangman by our collective restraint in the matter of the death penalty, while ten clearly guilty perpetrators are thereby spared, that is as close to justice as we are likely to come any time soon.

Unconscionable. That's the word I was seeking.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Gord » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:08 am

ALF wrote:...I decided to take it easy and summarize ALL my arguments as succinctly as I can, usually in poetry.

As poetry is beyond my ken, good sir, I must concede the argument to you! :tip-o-the-hat:
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Alexander941 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:51 am

Iam for it if the execution is held on a public square, and done by the Judge who ordered it, the prosecutor and the Governor together.
Not just by pushing a Button, but by stabbing the guy to death with rusty kitchen knives a few hundred times, why do it in a sterile room and pretend it is some sort of surgery?

I mean if it is worth Killing some one then i think it should be done in person :-)

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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:58 am

That's right -- in the Middle Ages families would go to public hanging with the kids and the picnic baskets -- major source of entertainment. Oh, those good old days, maybe we will be lucky to see them again!

However, I agree that, if it is done, the Governor, the Judge, the prosecutor, the jury members ALL should participate in carrying it out.

Forget about the public square and the rusty knives!
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Hex » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:28 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Murdering people is murdering people. I don't know how to justify or sanction the act, except in self defence. And so, we are of two minds.

Law dictates if murdering someone, in self-defense, maybe murder if it violates the "reasonable force" law. Some situations are pretty clear. Example: 3 big guys with guns invade your home putting your family in jeopardy. It is difficult to determine the level of aggression they are willing to go and you have the hard decision to get into a shoot-out or just be passive and let them do what they want. If you choose the former, and some how avoid being killed, I view this as a justifiable killing.

Turning a shotgun on a teenager holding a Swiss-army-knife and blowing him away for the home invasion is clearly murder.

But, those are my opinions. Someone could feel that just the act of invading their home/property gives them the right to blow his head-off.

I'm sure I could pose these same scenarios to a 100 different people and get many differing opinions. Including some sort of allowable aggression for each case, like shooting to maim over shooting to kill.

Fortunately I've never had any kind of situation like these. So, I can't honestly say how I would react. Just the fact that you can't read the aggressors mind, you have no idea just to what level they feel justifies aggressive action. That, in itself, can muddy the waters when determining how much aggression should be used by the victim.

One thing I do believe is that giving the courts the ability to kill criminals does not deter other criminals from killing. They are often in a great emotional state, where common sense is not on their priority list. Or, they think they are smarter than everyone else and won't get caught. I'm sure there are other reasons.
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by ALF » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:49 pm

Hex wrote:One thing I do believe is that giving the courts the ability to kill criminals does not deter other criminals from killing. They are often in a great emotional state, where common sense is not on their priority list. Or, they think they are smarter than everyone else and won't get caught. I'm sure there are other reasons.


That's one very good pragmatic (as opposed to ethical) reason to outlaw death penalty, as it is outlawed in most civilized countries on the planet today.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country

Even in the US, roughly half the states outlawed it -- see
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-and-without-death-penalty
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by Rob Lister » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:25 pm

ALF wrote:That's one very good pragmatic (as opposed to ethical) reason to outlaw death penalty, as it is outlawed in most civilized countries on the planet today.


Out of curiosity, is that part of your definition of civilized?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by moth1ne » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:31 pm

The death penalty is the same poor moral lesson we get from the OT: an eye for an eye. It is not a moral principle and if the state kills an innocent person then it is cold-blooded murder. How is it not? That's what Rob has failed to show throughout this thread. How is the state killing an innocent person any different than an individual killing an innocent person? How is is not considered murder in both instances?
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Re: Death Penalty

Post by moth1ne » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:47 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:I don't understand the requirement for murder.


It's a bitch understanding anything when you can't remove your emotions from the subject being discussed.

Here's your likely syllogism

All murder is wrong
The death penalty is murder
The death penalty is wrong.

Can you spot the emotion?

I don't think there is any emotion in Major's posts. He is saying that murder is murder, not that murder is wrong. If you don't think murder is wrong then you don't think it's wrong when the state does it, because the state has and still does kill innocent people. You seem to classify killing innocent people by the State's mandate differently than you do an individual who does the same thing. This is where your logic fails. Murder is murder, either by an individual or by the state. The end result is that an innocent person has died.
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