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Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:04 pm
by Pyrrho
Given the recent fracas over this rule:

Copyright infringement. Users may post very brief excerpts of content from other websites, with a link to the online source. This should be no more than a short paragraph, accompanied by commentary.

I am interested in your suggestions and recommendations to make this rule restrictive enough to protect the forum's legal backside while permitting sufficient Fair Use of content belonging to someone else.

This does include the posting of images.

What say you?

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:23 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Ja bull.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:55 pm
by scrmbldggs
Would it be OK if one used
Hidden Content
This board requires you to be registered and logged-in to view hidden content.
for content one is uncertain about?

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:01 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
I would think hidden content is still "posting" and would not avoid whatever rule is of interest.

I agree its unworkable to accept some posters affirmation that they have secured permission to use copyrighted material. Its only half the point as posts should be a digested and targeted summary of whatever reference is being relied upon.....not as some have done here post a lengthy link in its entirety either all at once or obviously in a series of 4-5 posts strung together.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:15 pm
by scrmbldggs
The hidden feature takes it out of the public sphere and I didn't mean it as a free for all usage. That's why I thought it might be useful for images and the occasional text (excerpts) that can't be linked to. History has shown that it's only a certain kind of user that wants to disregard the rule, even after having been made aware of it.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:16 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
I don't think that is what "public" means. We are all pubus.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:34 pm
by Pyrrho
The "hidden" tag hides it from guests and bots and scrapers, so I guess it makes a kind of sense. The fundamental issue is that posting on a forum qualifies as "publishing", at least that's how I understand my reading of legal advisories on the copyright question.

Best to keep within basic Fair Use guidelines. One or two brief excerpts, with some commentary of your own.

In these modern days of "Share this!" links a source loses standing if they encourage sharing...yet I have seen bloggers who became quite irate when their work was taken and published elsewhere without their knowledge or consent.

Images have always been a challenge. At least we are not trying to monetize anything that is posted here.

I could set up a separate bbcode for images that hides them from guests by appropriating some of the "hidden" code.

Could also probably tweak the existing image bbcode but it would be best for me to leave the core system alone.

But, again, that would be trying to hide the basic fact of republishing someone else's work.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:05 am
by Matthew Ellard
I think the current rule is sound, as is, concerning text based copyrights.
Pyrrho wrote: This does include the posting of images.
I understand protecting the forum, may mean I can no longer use existing copyright images. like Mickey Mouse, in my cartoons. I can accept and agree with that.

I will go with what's best for the forum, on this matter.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:11 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
Is the Bible copyrighted?

Asking for a friend.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:18 am
by scrmbldggs
:hmm: I think it's copywronged.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:31 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: I think it's copywronged.

Copycrapped.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:31 am
by Gord
I never know what to do when I'm posting exerpts of copyrighted material. If I don't post enough of it to get the message across, then I haven't posted enough of it. (I mean, that makes sense, right, even if it sounds circular?)

So I always try to avoid posting the parts that aren't necessary to make the point -- for instance, this: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29098&p=630110#p629855 That's five full paragraphs and one partial paragraph from an article that is 17 paragraphs long (some of those paragraphs are only one sentence, because...jeez, articles are always doing that these days!).

But what if the original only had one point in it? I mean, I could post exerpts from Macbeth easily enough because there's a lot more to it that a single idea.

Crap, I'm being called away from the computer. I'll come back to this in a while. My point is: I don't think I'm doing it right and I want to investigate further.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:34 am
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Its easy. A self created summary of the point you wish to make.........and a link. No copy of anything need be made. If you do copy.......make it relevant to your own summary. This is true for art work too, just harder to conceptualize what comment/point/fair use of the work you are making.....

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:58 am
by scrmbldggs
It's not just the "how much", it's also the "what's the most important (valuable) portion of the text". (On "how much", I try to stick with a modest percentage more than with "a paragraph".)

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:44 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
I most do "collection" sites, news and views. They post summaries, I repost enough to let the reader decide if chasing the link is something they want to do. Saves time and confusion IMNSHO. Nobody's complained.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:50 am
by scrmbldggs
"Nobody's complained." - Ignore function is bliss. :-P

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:54 am
by Pyrrho
This article has links to several references on the subject.

http://www.managingcommunities.com/2010 ... -articles/

Stanford's resources on the subject are quite thorough.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/f ... r-factors/

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:59 pm
by Pyrrho
I like the idea of "1/5 or 1/6" limit for quoting a text article.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:30 pm
by scrmbldggs
1/5 to 1/6" seems a good yardstick. :-P

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:25 pm
by Pyrrho
I suppose I could use picas or agates, based on the point size of the typeface.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:33 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
Pyrrho wrote:I suppose I could use picas or agates, based on the point size of the typeface.

Agates? That would be ... awesome.

Spoiler:

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:39 pm
by scrmbldggs
Yup! One could carve out a nice piece with agates.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:33 pm
by Pyrrho
I tried something that would make posted images into clickable thumbnails that would then show the full-size image in a popover, but it disabled every link in the forum.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:42 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
I don't see why a thumbnail would change the liability at all, if there was one. What is the "downside" for a clear violation? Seems like the only thing I hear about is takedown notices being issued and complied with? Copywright holders get motivated when someone is making $$$ off the infringement. I don't see that going on here at all.

.....................but I'm no expert, and DO want you to sleep soundly at night................

Edit: Thumbnail: just a smaller picture of the whole?.....aka: the copywrighted image itself. If the thumbnail is more of an icon just to show the link is to a picture....or video...then yes that would be effective.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:11 pm
by Gord
Pyrrho wrote:Stanford's resources on the subject are quite thorough.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/f ... r-factors/

Blarg. :? Looks like I've always violated the section "The Amount and Substantiality of the Portion Taken" every time I've ever quoted portions of anything:

...However, even if you take a small portion of a work, your copying will not be a fair use if the portion taken is the “heart” of the work. In other words, you are more likely to run into problems if you take the most memorable aspect of a work....

Well, "the heart of the work" is what I'm trying to post about! :slapfight:

(Either that, or I don't understand what they mean by "the heart of the work".)

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:05 pm
by JO 753
Pyrrho wrote:I tried something that would make posted images into clickable thumbnails that would then show the full-size image in a popover, but it disabled every link in the forum.


Do all forumz uze a 3rd party imaje website?

The Chrysler forum I'm in haz thouzandz uv ruined posts kuz wutstheirname desided they wanted to make money. They uze Postimaje now and it showz up az a good size thumnail that you can click if youre interested in seeing it full size.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:30 pm
by Aztexan
Well my main sources of information I post here come from my drunken idiot cousin and that weird guy that hangs out near the playground at the park and they don't mind if their knowledge is shared so :beee: with your :rulez:

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:28 pm
by TJrandom
I`ll be happy to flaunt whatever rules are set in place.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:31 pm
by Gawdzilla Sama
TJrandom wrote:I`ll be happy to flaunt whatever rules are set in place.


"flout"

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:43 am
by TJrandom
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I`ll be happy to flaunt whatever rules are set in place.


"flout"


Flauntingly flout? :oops:

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:16 am
by ElectricMonk
Sorry, I simply don't know enough about copyright law or the amount of risk the forum hosts are willing to take to be of any use in this discussion
I grew up when we would swap cassette tapes with new tracks or floppy disks with games as a matter of course.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:54 am
by Gawdzilla Sama
"serious" copyright violations are for profit. Most get a thunderous copypasta email.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:45 pm
by Upton_O_Goode
Pyrrho wrote:Given the recent fracas over this rule:

Copyright infringement. Users may post very brief excerpts of content from other websites, with a link to the online source. This should be no more than a short paragraph, accompanied by commentary.

I am interested in your suggestions and recommendations to make this rule restrictive enough to protect the forum's legal backside while permitting sufficient Fair Use of content belonging to someone else.

This does include the posting of images.

What say you?


I'm happy to abide by that, not being technically competent enough to post an image unless I have a url for it.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:28 pm
by TJrandom
I don`t do images either – grainy, gravure, graven…

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:29 pm
by Pyrrho
Still working on the thumbnail thing. For great justice. Before someone sets us up the bomb.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:04 pm
by Monster
Pyrrho wrote:Given the recent fracas over this rule:

Copyright infringement. Users may post very brief excerpts of content from other websites, with a link to the online source. This should be no more than a short paragraph, accompanied by commentary.

I am interested in your suggestions and recommendations to make this rule restrictive enough to protect the forum's legal backside while permitting sufficient Fair Use of content belonging to someone else.

This does include the posting of images.

What say you?

Regarding quoting, I'll be satisfied with whatever you decide. The current loose guideline* is acceptable to me. If you want to limit quoting to 1/5 or 1/6 the content of a linked-to article, that's fine with me too.

Regarding images, I'm not sure what to do.

* I say "loose" guideline, because I couldn't find anything about quoting articles in the FAQ. The quoted text above, that you wrote, Pyrrho, is the only written guideline I found.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:35 pm
by TJrandom
Wait... would a 1/5 rule apply to quotes of stuff authored by other forum posters, or just to outside content? I`d hate to need to do word counts...

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:42 pm
by JO 753
This duznt apply to your own work published elsewhere first duz it?

I dont see "Open Letter To Robert Mueller" in Politics.

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:47 pm
by TJrandom
Oh, on word counts... do JO`s letter combinations count as words? :mrgreen:

Re: Discussion: The Copyright Rule

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 pm
by Pyrrho
TJrandom wrote:Wait... would a 1/5 rule apply to quotes of stuff authored by other forum posters, or just to outside content? I`d hate to need to do word counts...

Outside content only.

Posting on a discussion board means that other users can quote your posts, even in full. This is called "implied license."

That said, the post content belongs to the individual who posted it. I have complied with requests by former users to remove their posts. There was one case in which I did remove a quoted post; the person felt it could identify them and they wanted it gone.