Remembrance Day

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Remembrance Day

Postby Gord » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:11 pm

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

— Lt.-Col. John McCrae

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Eric D R » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:14 pm

Salute to all, past and present.

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby nmblum88 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:02 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Salute to all, past and present.



"I, too, saw God through mud --
The mud that cracked on cheeks when wretches smiled.
War brought more glory to their eyes than blood,
And gave their laughs more glee than shakes a child.

Merry it was to laugh there --
Where death becomes absurd and life absurder.
For power was on us as we slashed bones bare
Not to feel sickness or remorse of murder.

I, too, have dropped off fear --
Behind the barrage, dead as my platoon,
And sailed my spirit surging, light and clear
Past the entanglement where hopes lay strewn;

And witnessed exultation --
Faces that used to curse me, scowl for scowl,
Shine and lift up with passion of oblation,
Seraphic for an hour; though they were foul.

I have made fellowships --
Untold of happy lovers in old song.
For love is not the binding of fair lips
With the soft silk of eyes that look and long,

By Joy, whose ribbon slips, --
But wound with war's hard wire whose stakes are strong;
Bound with the bandage of the arm that drips;
Knit in the welding of the rifle-thong.

I have perceived much beauty
In the hoarse oaths that kept our courage straight;
Heard music in the silentness of duty;
Found peace where shell-storms spouted reddest spate.

Nevertheless, except you share
With them in hell the sorrowful dark of hell,
Whose world is but the trembling of a flare,
And heaven but as the highway for a shell,

You shall not hear their mirth:
You shall not come to think them well content
By any jest of mine. These men are worth
Your tears: You are not worth their merriment.
November 1917"



"Apologia pro Poemate Meo" by Wilfred Owen, 25 years old, killed at the Sambre-Oise Canal in Northern France, November 4, 1918....

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gord » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:01 pm

In Flanders Fields, by John McCrae, written in May of 1915.

Almost 100 years ago, now.

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions ... ds_e.shtml
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:42 pm

Eric D R wrote:Salute to all, past and present.


nmblum wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Salute to all, past and present.



:scratch:

Well, whoever wrote it, me too!
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:02 pm

I have me on ignore, so it might be correct.

"at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month"
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:21 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I have me on ignore, so it might be correct.

"at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month"


Walking to the bead of yer own drum... and meeting other vets?

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:01 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:

"at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month"

Past, present, and future (though I wish the future wasn't as necessary).
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:40 pm

Sir Richard Attenborough made an anti-war film about the 1914-1918 war. He compiled songs from the time, starting from early "cheerful songs" about "joining up for a good time" and, as the film evolves, the songs slowly turn into desperate songs of simply "not wanting to die and be buried" in some stupid mass grave with thousands of other 20 year old children.

"Oh What a Lovely War" / "When they ask us" (Final song)

phpBB [video]

.
This next scene shows a 1917 Anti-war activist's speech. I think it is fairly realistic. It also makes you think that the exact same scene was being played out in Germany, Austria, France, Russia, The USA and so on.

Oh What a Lovely War / "Our young men are being slaughtered"

phpBB [video]


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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby octopus1 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:45 am

"Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds -
and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of -
wheeled and soared and swung high in the sunlit silence.
Hovering there I've chased the shouting wind along
and flung my eager craft through footless halls of air.

"Up, up the long delirious burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace,
where never lark, or even eagle, flew;
and, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
put out my hand and touched the face of God."


Not a fan of remembering only one side of a conflict though. So, although late to the party, I put that up for all the casualties of War - Whoever they were. I'd list the countries here, but you can get the same result by typing "all countries on Earth" into Google...
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby clarsct » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:52 am

We call it 'Veteran's Day' here in the States, but same sentiment.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gord » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:32 pm

*bump*

Now it's been 100 years.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:18 am

I just got back from my free meal for Veterans at the local "Homeboy buffet." I just love making my own hard shell tacoes with a side of rice and beans. I know....simple food for simple folk.

I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service."

Its all part of the ongoing BS to have the next war. OLD MEN sending young men to their Deaths. Young men too stupid to not go.

Hoomans. Too easily led to believe whatever some small group decides to do. Thats what I think as I put the soft serve plastics recycled based ice cream on my carrot cake.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service."
But we’re looking for someone else.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby nmblum88 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:15 am

The War Resisters' League
339 Lafayette St.
New York, NY 20013
212-228-0459
And for Canadians:
The War Resisters' Support Campaign
427 Bloor Street
Toronto, Ont. Canada M57 1X67
416-856-50008

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsSMCq7pl

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:21 am

A SSF veteran! Hi, Norms. *wave* : )
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service."
That's your bias at work, not the reality of the situation.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:24 am

And a Salute to you, Gawd! :ahoy:

:-D
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:25 am

Well Gawd===reality has many facets. Its not a bias, just how I rank order the importance and meaning of the event. Not right or wrong....but values. In my bias, it would be telling {!#%@} from shinola.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:32 am

:gb:
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:29 am

Now THAT is some excellent shinola. Sadly, I'm having my ice tea mix right now. Black, Green, Hibiscus for the base, varies after that. You just can't drink beer 24/7. Or at least I can't..... and I've tried.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:36 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...You just can't drink beer 24/7...

True... one has to squeeze in an hour of sleep every once in a while.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gord » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service."

I'm tellin' ya, you're a Democrat and you don't even know it.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:46 am

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service."

I'm tellin' ya, you're a Democrat and you don't even know it.

I'm a Democrat and I know it. Image
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Poodle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:53 pm

How in hell does "Thank you for your service, guys" equate to "I'm gung ho for wars"?

Just that. It really doesn't need any further explanation. Where's the problem?

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:56 pm

Poodle wrote:How in hell does "Thank you for your service, guys" equate to "I'm gung ho for wars"?

Just that. It really doesn't need any further explanation. Where's the problem?

Anti-war people that go over the top with that idea are funny to watch in action, aren't they?
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Poodle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:18 pm

I'm anti-war in simple terms. I don't like wars. No sane person likes wars. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the people who get involved with wars at the dirty end because they happen to be in the services. They don't get a choice - there's no vote amongst service people about what they should or should not do.

Confusion between political decisions and membership of the armed forces at the end of those decisions is rife. It makes no difference. Dead or wounded is dead or wounded, and those people deserve recognition. I would not care to be in the position of being shot at. The fact that some people are in that position, whether they agree or not with the political situation, is deserving of my sympathy whether or not I agree with the decisions of people who aren't actually sticking their bodies in the way.

It seems so straightforward to me, and it matters not one whit what your political beliefs are. Rightly or wrongly, those people stick their bodies between you and someone else. Give them some credit.

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:38 pm

I'm anti-war, that's why I spent 20 years in the Navy.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:11 pm

Poodle---the longest post I have seen you make. Ex military, or just your humanity overflowing?

Anyhoo, what I said was: "I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service." So, does thanking those in the Military glorify war or not? When you thank someone for their service, you are telling them they made a positive contribution or did something good. I don't see that being the case at all for the veterans of the last 20 years....or really since WW2. War is a waste of life and resources unless vital national interests are at stake. Like WW2....and none of the other adventures/police actions/confused BS.

Poodle, it seems to me your position is pro war in wanting to have a pool of cannon fodder ready to be called up and put to whatever use the powers that be determine. The very stupidity that encourages war. We have a "volunteer" military in the USA and the fairly uniform recognition is that if the forces were filled by a draft, there would be no more wars by the USA as the citizenry is against war "when" their own kiddies are sent to the wastelands. But volunteers from the poor and illegal immigrant class? Sure....like I said: cannon fodder. They take less than minimum wage and get by with an empty "Thank You."

......and I tested as closest to Hilary Clinton, a Bitch Chicken Hawk who's kiddie would never go to War. As you can tell, being ex-Vet, I'm kinda Anti-War. Its like standing next to a fir tree in my book.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:38 pm

And that's the SJWs heard from.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Poodle » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Poodle---the longest post I have seen you make.


You haven't looked very far.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ex military, or just your humanity overflowing?

Anyhoo, what I said was: "I really dislike Veterans Day. Regardless of how hard you try, it still comes out to glory war. Same with "Thank you for your service." So, does thanking those in the Military glorify war or not? When you thank someone for their service, you are telling them they made a positive contribution or did something good. I don't see that being the case at all for the veterans of the last 20 years....or really since WW2. War is a waste of life and resources unless vital national interests are at stake. Like WW2....and none of the other adventures/police actions/confused BS.


I've highlighted the bit which is important.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Poodle, it seems to me your position is pro war in wanting to have a pool of cannon fodder ready to be called up and put to whatever use the powers that be determine. The very stupidity that encourages war.


Why not put emotive words in my mouth, bobbo? That's not what I said, not what I meant, not accurate in any way. Your stance, though admirable in its naive way, is simply not practical and you made that point yourself above. So WW2 was OK, but no other action is? Are you so sure of your ability to judge? Sure, some military actions turn out to have been stupid and yes, let's try not to get involved in those. But it's not relevant to the simple act of paying respect to the human beings who are killed and injured in any conflict. Being respectful and, indeed, grateful, is not the same as being pro-war. I find it sad that some people can get the two things confused.

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:36 pm

"Pro-war" is an excuse to denigrate a whole class of people. Happens a lot around here.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby xouper » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:02 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Pro-war" is an excuse to denigrate a whole class of people. Happens a lot around here.

Like calling a whole class of people "ammosexuals"? ;)

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:47 pm

Poodle:

1. name the conflict that was appropriate and why since WW2. Hint: NONE of them were. Sending men off 6000 miles away is not "vital" to our national interests. Just some old {!#%@} chicken hawks feeling their manhood by shedding the blood of others.

2. words have meaning. I did not repeat the words you used, I went to their meaning. Deal with the meaning of your words. You think the words you used do not have the meaning I give them because I am naive and impractical? OK==make sure to answer question No 1 above.

3. "But it's not relevant to the simple act of paying respect to the human beings who are killed and injured in any conflict." /// BS! There is no reason on earth for me or anyone else to "respect" Germans who fought for the Nazi cause in WW2. Nor for the poor whites who fought in the Civil War of the USA. Nor for the genocidal forces in Cambodia and its Killing Fields. ..... and so forth for most wars started by one side against some other. You either have a value system where War is the LAST RESORT....or one in which you use it for some other purposes...but never your own kiddies...the kiddies of others who can be hornswaggled into it by poverty or patriotism.

4. "Being respectful and, indeed, grateful, is not the same as being pro-war." /// Agreed, but it is also not being ANTI WAR to the degree necessary to avoid the next war. So...don't thank them (us?) for their service but rather apologize. You see the difference?

5. I find it sad that some people can get the two things confused. /// I do as well because the excuse/dislocation of the relevant interests and values is what allows the next war to come along. If you don't recognize what war being the LAST RESORT means, then off course, it becomes just one of the tools in the diplomatic chess game of corporate interests.
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Poodle » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:13 pm

Point 1 is easy to answer from a UK point of view. The Falklands. And why? Because the Falkland Islanders didn't want to be an Argentinian colony. All other attitudes towards the Falklands are secondary to that simple consideration.

Point 2 - I disagree. I think you deliberately misconstrued what I said to suit your own agenda. It's OK - that's what humans do.

Point 3 - by far the majority of the German armed forces in WW2 were not Nazis. They didn't get a choice. They were conscripted in the same manner as lots of other armies around the world at the time. I think you commit a very basic error assuming that they fought for the Nazi cause.

Point 4 - Conflation. One thing actually has no bearing on the other.

Point 5 - Then we are in some basic agreement.

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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gord » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:35 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Pro-war" is an excuse to denigrate a whole class of people.

Yeah, the pro-war class! :mrgreen:
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gord » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:19 am

Gord wrote:In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

— Lt.-Col. John McCrae

*bump* again.

Here it's read by Anthony Davies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6BlOkpdkg8
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Scott Mayers
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Scott Mayers » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:56 am

I'm with bobbo on this. I think that "Rememberance Day"/"Veteran's day" do serve the rhetorical purpose to keep the military at least functionally respected.

The true 'sacrifice' that these men/women fight for is that they fight in the banner of a military system that necessitates a "dictatorial" form. Especially to those who volunteer rather than be forcefully drafted, their sacrifice is unwittingly to love a form of life that is actually remote from ANY country's actual philosophy they serve!! For those who are forced to, I can feel a bit better for given that many will not be actually willing but MAY actually desire to fight for the actual INTELLECTUAL understanding of some cause they are fighting for.

This is because all militaries follow the same form no matter WHAT system they are fighting for. They are most effective if they train their soldiers to FOLLOW orders blindly, something that is NOT certainly something of virtue to defend of a country believing in 'free' thinking. At best, they most serve effective to those systems that default to such forms of dictatorial lifestyle their normal citizens live by. [Think Spartans, for instance.]

I thus also agree to Gord's thread and others here of the respect too.... but in a conflicting discomfort. I just think that the actual "sacrifice" is hard to pinpoint and giving credit to the sacrifice often tends to suggest that the form of behavior of war itself, is justified regardless.
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:14 am

"To absent friends."
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

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Hex
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Re: Remembrance Day

Postby Hex » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:39 am

Scott Mayers wrote:I'm with bobbo on this. I think that "Rememberance Day"/"Veteran's day" do serve the rhetorical purpose to keep the military at least functionally respected.

The true 'sacrifice' that these men/women fight for is that they fight in the banner of a military system that necessitates a "dictatorial" form. Especially to those who volunteer rather than be forcefully drafted, their sacrifice is unwittingly to love a form of life that is actually remote from ANY country's actual philosophy they serve!! For those who are forced to, I can feel a bit better for given that many will not be actually willing but MAY actually desire to fight for the actual INTELLECTUAL understanding of some cause they are fighting for.

This is because all militaries follow the same form no matter WHAT system they are fighting for. They are most effective if they train their soldiers to FOLLOW orders blindly, something that is NOT certainly something of virtue to defend of a country believing in 'free' thinking. At best, they most serve effective to those systems that default to such forms of dictatorial lifestyle their normal citizens live by. [Think Spartans, for instance.]

I thus also agree to Gord's thread and others here of the respect too.... but in a conflicting discomfort. I just think that the actual "sacrifice" is hard to pinpoint and giving credit to the sacrifice often tends to suggest that the form of behavior of war itself, is justified regardless.

Dude, I have many problems about how the military is perceived and conducted and don't have the blind RAH! RAH! attitude that society judges you by. But, sometimes you gotta step back and realize that there are times and places to these types of discussions and this one day isn't one of them.

You have 364 other days to start a discussion, maybe pick one of those and start a different thread.
Spoiler:
  TOYNBEE IDEA
IN KUBRICK'S 2001
RESURRECT DEAD
ON PLANET JUPITER  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwoaOJZ7Dfk


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