Nanjing Massacre Denial

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Denying-History
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Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby Denying-History » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:43 am

Not expecting much from the creation of such a thread. For anyone interested I wrote the following response to a deceptively written article by one "ZF phantom". Thought I would transcribe it here for future reference.

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ZF wrote:Do you believe that "Nanking Massacre" is the fact? Well, let's look at historical records.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/zf-phantom/e/b9fce6b774ed768149eb86f4ddb29ad9


I have posted a similar tweet from the same person @ZF_phantom before. They seem really proud of their "look at the historical records". His post contains 6 "facts" and 5 "discussions" of aspects of the Nanking massacre, each one is cherry-picking.

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Fact 1 / Burial Record
After fall of Nanjing, the Japanese army entrusted the burial work of the corpses of war victims inside and outside the Nanking castle to the Red Swastika Society. According to this burial record, the total number of corpses was 43,023. The number of women corpses was 83 and that of children was 46. In other words, the proportion of women and children was only 0.3%.


[His] first distortion is the burial statistics. First off the Burial records add up to 227,623 corpses. The figure for the Red Swastika Society also wasn't 43,023 and was 43,071 (See Tanaka Masaaki's "What Really Happened in Nanking" p.55)

The breakdown is as follows:
Xinhe District: 2,873
Near Army Arsenal outside south gate: Over 7,000
Caoxiexia District: 57,418
Hanzhong Gate: Over 2,000
Linggu Temple: Over 3,000
Red Swastika Society: 43,071
Chongshangtang: 112,261
Total: 227,623
Source: Tanaka Masaaki's ibid. p. 44-45

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Fact 2 / Smythe Report
Three months after fall of Nanjing, Professor Lewis S. C. Smythe of Jinling University (Nanjing University) conducted a statistical survey on the damage situation of citizens. This is the so-called Smythe Report.* According to this, the number of citizen victims inside and outside the Nanjing castle was 3,400.
(* War Damage in Nanking Area, Dec.1937 to March 1938, Urban and Rural Surveys )


@ZF_phantom's Second fact is also selectively chosen. He attempts to make it appear the Smyth's statistics only show some 3,400 massacred. Miner Bates described Smyths estimate: "Our final estimate of the number of civilians killed in Nanking was 12,000."

Bates gave further comment to IMTFE on Dec. 15th 1946: mind: "Professor Smythe and I concluded, as a result of our investigations and observations and checking of burials, that twelve thousand civilians, men, women and children, were killed inside the walls within our own sure knowledge. There were many others killed within the city outside our knowledge whose numbers we have no way of checking, and also there were large numbers killed immediately out side the city, of civilians."

This would mean Smyth and Bates knew of at least 12,000 civilians being murdered as a minimum, not just 3,400. In fact the crimes against the civilian population are well documented to an extent. With some 16,500 detailed murders as is reported by Jean-Louis Margolin. This probably mean some 12,000 to 20,000 civilians died within the city. With some 10,000 dying outside the city. Though the death toll for civilians is likely higher.

Sources: See Zhang Kaiyuan's "Eyewitnesses to Massacre" p. 42 & 62
Also see: Jean-Louis Margolin's "Japanese Crimes in Nanjing, 1937-38 : A Reappraisal" for the speculation of 12,000-20,000 massacred citizens in the city and some 10,000 outside. He estiamtes a figure of some 50,000 to 90,000 massacre victims.

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Fact 3 / Safety Zone
Professor Hsu Shu-hsi (徐淑希) of Yanjing University (燕京大学) published the “Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone (南京安全区攩案)” in 1939 by collecting protest documents prepared by the International Committee for Nanking Safety Zone who protected Nanjing citizens. According to this, there were 26 murders (53 victims), 175 rapes, 131 thefts, and other incidents after the fall of Nanjing.


@ZF_phantom's third fact is to bring up a documents collection called "Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone". The issue being is that it only includes the Safety Zone and does not minimize the crime in anyway.

The following collection is not the only one and, one of the more recent documents publications from Timothy Brook contains sections form the Nanking Judgment which places the figure at approximately 20,000 rapes within the first month of the cities occupation.

Source: Documents on the Rape of Nanking (Ann Arbor Paperbacks) p.259

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Fact 4 / War Deaths
According to the Nanking Defense War History (南京衛戍戦史話) recorded by Tan Dao-ping (譚道平) of Nanking Defense Headquarters, the total force of the KMT was 81,000 and the number of war deaths was 36,500.


@ZF_phantom's fourth fact is again also deceptive in an attempt to lower the number of soldier's killed. In a poor attempt he tries to downplay the number of massacred people. I will return to this at a later point. The issue with his math is the following. The break down for soliders deaths is as follows:

• 25,000 soldiers killed during the battle, in the panic, or dead from lack of medical care;
• 10,000 retreating safely;
• 5,000 hiding successfully in or around Nanjing.

This would mean some 30,000 to 60,000 Chinese soldiers were captured by the Japanese, and killed. Most were executed between December 12th and 18th. Out of probably some 110,000 garrisoned troops. Iris Chang provides a lower number of 90,000 garrisoned troops.

Source: Jean-Louis Margolin's "Japanese Crimes in Nanjing, 1937-38: A Reappraisal" p.9

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Fact 5 / Tokyo Tribunal
Commander Matsui, who commanded the Battle of Nanking, was executed as a Class B** war criminal at the Tokyo Tribunal.* He was not a war criminal of Class A or C. He was found innocent on the count 54 (execution of the massacre, command, authorization, permission), and guilty only on the count 55 (POWs and citizens' protection obligation). The text of judgment said, "He must be held criminally responsible for his failure to protect the unfortunate citizens of Nanking.”
(* The International Military Tribunal for the Far East)
(** Class A : crimes against peace, Class B : war crimes, and Class C : crimes against humanity)


@ZF_phantom's Fact five is an irrelevent point. Matsui was executed under the blame of complicity.

MATUSI, Iwane
The accused MATSUI is charged under Counts 1, 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 36, 54 and 55.

...Although his close association with those who conceived and carried out the conspiracy suggests that he must have been aware of the purposes and policies of the conspirators, the evidence before the Tribunal does not justify a finding that he was a conspirator.

...This orgy of crime started with the capture of the City on the 13th December 1937 and did not cease until early in February 1938. In this period of six or seven weeks thousands of women were raped, upwards of 100,000 people were killed and untold property was stolen and burned. At the height of these dreadful happenings, on 17 December, MATSUI made a triumphal entry into the City and remained there from five to seven days. From his own observations and from the reports of his staff he must have been aware of what was happening. He admits he was told of some degree of misbehavior of his Army by the Kempeitai and by Consular Officials...

...The Tribunal is satisfied that MATSUI knew what was happening. He did nothing, or nothing effective to abate these horrors...It was pleaded in his behalf that at this time he was ill. His illness was not sufficient to prevent his conducting the military operations of his command nor to prevent his visiting the City for days while these atrocities were occurring. He was in command of the Army responsible for these happenings. He knew of them. He had the power, as he had the duty, to control his troops and to protect the unfortunate citizens of Nanking. He must be held criminally responsible for his failure to discharge this duty.

The Tribunal holds the accused MATSUI guilty under Count 55, and not guilty under Counts l, 27, 29, 31, 32, 35, 36 and 54.


Source: Documents on the Rape of Nanking (Ann Arbor Paperbacks) p.259

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Fact 6 / Executions
The following units executed about 16,000 defeated soldiers. However, no one has been convicted as a war crime among the division chiefs or regiment commanders of these units. The 7th Regiment of the 9th Division, the 33rd Regiment of the 16th Division, the 30th Brigade of the 16th Division, the 66th Regiment of the 114th Division and the 65th Regiment of the 13th Division.


@ZF_phantom's fact 6 is a similar issue. He implies these groups massacured "16,000" chinese soldiers (the figure is closer to 20,000) as something legally justified. See Discussion 5. This is against international law. To quote Jean-Louis Margolin:

"what happened next was totally contrary to the age-old and universally accepted laws and customs of war, and, particularly, to the 1929 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War..."

Source: Jean-Louis Margolin's "Japanese Crimes in Nanjing, 1937-38: A Reappraisal" p.4

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Discussion 1 / Women and Children
The fact that the proportion of women and children in the corpses of Nanking was 0.3% indicates that there was no systematic massacre against the citizens. On the other hand, the Tokyo Air Raid in 1945 was an indiscriminate attack on citizens. The proportion of minors among the victims is about 40%.


@ZF_phantom's discussion one attempts to argue that the lack of female and children deaths is evidence that civilians were not targeted. While in reality this would only become a case for the systematic targeting of men similar to Srebrenica. I would also feel it reasonable to point out that some evidence exists to suggest his figure is wrong. According to a post-war investigation from April 1946 some 295,525 people died. Of which 76% were Men 22% female and 2% children.

Source: Documents on the Rape of Nanking (Ann Arbor Paperbacks) p.2

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Discussion 2 / Citizen Victims
If the number of war dead is 36,500 and the citizen victims is 3,400, the proportion of citizen victim is 8.5%. For example, the proportion of citizen victims is 50% for Okinawa battle during World War II, 47% for Berlin falls, and 75% for Iraq warfare in 2003. Then, in fact, the proportion of citizen victims was relatively small in the Battle of Nanking.


@ZF_phantom's Discussion 2 is also wrong, as he insists on a massacre death toll of 36,500 "war dead" his earlier "fact" seems to imply this was only military dead. This is also obviously incorrect to, because if Margolin's figures are right that would be 5-8% of the population.

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Discussion 3 / Small Numbers
As you can see from the "Smythe Report" and the "Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone (南京安全区攩案)," the recorded number of citizen victims and incidents was too small to be called “Nanking Massacre.” Recognition of people who were in Nanjing after the fall is at this level.


@ZF_phantom's argument (discussion 3) here is the word "massacre" cannot be applied because only 3,400 people died. This makes little sense because Americans describe the shooting of some 5 people in Boston on a single night a massacre. Similar to Srebrenica being genocide.

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Discussion 4 / Judgment
Commander Matsui ordered the cleansing of the soldiers lurking in the safety zone. Nonetheless, he was found innocent on the count 54 (execution of the massacre, command, authorization, permission) as mentioned above. That is, the Allies proved that there was no systematic massacre under Matsui’s command.


@ZF_phantom's discussion 4 would only implicate Matsui, which doesn't help his point. His arguments of the allies "proving" no "systematic massacre [happens] under Matsui’s command." Means little with regard to what happened at the city. As mentioned above Matsui was informed of what happened under his command and is like Koki Hirota's telegram is further "evidence that this was not something that occurred among low-level soldiers without the knowledge or complicity of Japanese higher-ups." (Iris Chang)

The Fake of Nanking Massacre wrote:Discussion 5 / Legality
The fact that there were no war criminals among the division chiefs or regiment commanders of the division who executed the defeated soldiers indicates that the execution of soldiers was regarded as legal actions also in standards of Allies.


Discussion 5 was addressed above. The lack of ratification of the 1929 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War does not mean Japan could exonerate itself from an international law accepted by a majority of countries, that Japanese delegates contributed to elaborate. Not to mention it is nonsense to believe they saw this actual a "legal".

In conclusion a massacre was comitted in Nanjing by japanese soldiers. Something I am sure everyone here already knew.
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Re: Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby OutOfBreath » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:40 am

What's the angle for denying this then? Japanese nationalism on the rise?

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Re: Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:22 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:What's the angle for denying this then? Japanese nationalism on the rise?

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Yes indeed, nationalism is on the rise - but these denials come from the `we are victims` meme of our nationalists - so anything to minimalize our misdeeds. The unstated thinking goes that we were late to the colonizing game and thus the victim count for Japan needs to be compared against the cumulative victim count of the Europeans - 1400s onward. Reducing our victim count, or not acknowledging it at all (not taught thru HS), helps ease the conscience of our aging politicians (whose fathers and grandfathers participated in atrocities) and who are dependent upon our nationalists in order to stay in power. Our denialists are on a par with those in the US who deny the dirt on Columbus and a few others since.

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Re: Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby OutOfBreath » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:27 pm

TJrandom wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:What's the angle for denying this then? Japanese nationalism on the rise?

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Yes indeed, nationalism is on the rise - but these denials come from the `we are victims` meme of our nationalists - so anything to minimalize our misdeeds. The unstated thinking goes that we were late to the colonizing game and thus the victim count for Japan needs to be compared against the cumulative victim count of the Europeans - 1400s onward. Reducing our victim count, or not acknowledging it at all (not taught thru HS), helps ease the conscience of our aging politicians (whose fathers and grandfathers participated in atrocities) and who are dependent upon our nationalists in order to stay in power. Our denialists are on a par with those in the US who deny the dirt on Columbus and a few others since.

Nothing like some historical "tu quoqoue" to wash off the stains...
Isn't it "funny" though that agressive and unpleasant nationalists always are crybabies at heart? Ref the poles atm, trumplings and so forth.

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Re: Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby Denying-History » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:13 pm

The main goal is to make the appearance that Japan was a power challenging western colonialism in Asia. The goal for denying the massacre is to remove war crime guilt from the empire, and thereby making them into a victim of foreign agression.

Not saying the Japanese don't have a point that China exaggerates the death toll, but their argument is generally the massacre was some kind of break down in discipline, this is nonsenses. While the Chinese try making the massacre as some type of targeting of the civilian population, which appears to only be true for males.

The massacre seems to have been committed with full knowledge from the Japanese government, considering on January 17, 1938 Foreign Minister Koki Hirota sent a letter containing the following:

Since returning (to) Shanghai a few days ago I investigated reported atrocities committed by Japanese army in Nanking and elsewhere. Verbal accounts (of) reliable eye-witnesses and letters from individuals whose credibility (is) beyond question afford convincing proof (that) Japanese Army behaved and (is) continuing to behave in (a) fashion reminiscent (of) Attila (and) his Huns. (Not) less than three hundred thousand Chinese civilians slaughtered, many cases (in) cold blood.
Last edited by Denying-History on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:19 pm

To add… By questioning any accepted fact, particularly where exact data cannot be known, it permits our deniers to claim `controversy`, supports a failure to teach, and keeps our politicians in power. And our politicians in turn feed the pride of the denialists by paying homage to our war criminals with their annual pilgrimages to the Yasukuni shrine which enshrines the war criminals. Luckily, the vast majority of Japanese see it for what it is, though they willingly turn a blind eye, given that the events are now historical and that they are not historians.

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Re: Nanjing Massacre Denial

Postby Denying-History » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:56 am

Japanese historians have been known to make rather shitty arguments against the chinese positions. Hata wrote a 5 point personal attack against Iris Changs rape of Nanking, where one of his arguments is how she looks like a Japanese feminist:

http://web.archive.org/web/20051031210318/http://homepage3.nifty.com/reveal/conspiracy/hata2.htm

This reply when I first read it was really surprising, I used to think of Hata as an accomplished historian.

Regardless the Chinese are way to reliant on burial records, which are obviously exaggerated, though the Japanese charge falsification. The burial records I gave above are WAY too high, but the main point was the author was cherry picking data. There is also the issue of the number of corpses that were "buried" in the Nanking river.

It's estimated in "Anatomy of Nanking" some 43,000 corpses were buried and that between 11,000 to 22,000 corpses were sent into the river by 7th and 69th regiments between 1,000 to 15,000 of them were massacre victims probably.

Hata's estimate given in his response above is also too low. Rabe's may be accurate but it's hard to say, he left before the massacre was over. The death toll is probably between 50,000 to 90,000 of which 95% are adult males.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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