Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

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Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:20 pm

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Nothing wrong with knowing as much History as you have the time and interest in learning. But what does it amount to?

In the main: History is the Past. Not the more important PRESENT leading to the Future. Lots of flap jawing about you have to know your history...........this is mostly not true.

This kind of History is trotted out for political reasons to advantage some group (in this case "Natives") to gain an advantage over anyone else. Its the same with claims to "Native Peoples Status" everywhere on the globe: it just keeps those natives down. I call BS. Treaties are all lies....a ruse...to stop the immediate loss of life and to regroup to finish the job. Political Correctness, lack of realpolitik somehow captures this subject.

PEOPLE ARE ALL THE SAME. Native and Conquerers==>the same. Treat the groups differently....and you just breed trouble. If I can't fish for salmon or harpon a whale, no one else should either.

Losing wars has consequences. Setting up human zoo's does too.

All treaties with Native Peoples should be "privatized" to the individuals living today and then let market forces work their magic: a common culture winning out over other less capable cultures. Just like always.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:06 pm

"Not the more important PRESENT leading to the Future." LOL. The present will be the past in one second.

Awesomely incoherent, well done.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:01 pm

Gawd: one second isn't the issue. Its going back to "roots" and the 19th Century if not when Europeans started conquering the native peoples.

Not incoherent at all unless you can explain the rationale for why a Native Person can open up a Casino on his land whereas I cannot.

How long should the Dead Hand of History differentiate among the peoples of today?
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:24 am

They have six casinos here in St. Louis. No First Nations involved.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:09 am

Who is the "they" then?

There are about 6 in my area as well. All Tribal set ups.

My favorite story: some tribe in Massachusettes or some such place had about 22 members in it and a half acre lot they called homeland. Some Jewish business manager got loans from (pick your own gambling related group) all under the titular Tribal Chief. More Land was bought that became Tribal and a typical casino was built. The profits from operation to be shared with tribal members. Yes........immediately long lost tribe members came out of the woodwork all demanding to be recognized. If forget the % of blood required to qualify...but last count the tribe has expanded to several hundreds. Casino Gambling..... right up there with honoring mountain tops and trees in Native American Lore. ===============>its all BS.

Item #2: constant bitching and moaning that life on the reservation doesn't offer any opportunities to the Natives. Well..........leave the fricken reservation and make your way in the world like everyone else.

Do we need more than two reasons?
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Poodle » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... In the main: History is the Past ...

That's what I like about you, bobbo - your ability to get straight to the nub of the matter :D

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:15 am

Poodle: ha, ha. Good One.

It does look rather stupid when isolated.

.............................we are all isolated...........................
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:58 am

I wonder - could the casino angst be extended to Mexico or Canada if they chose to have casinos? That is, what is a nation, and whose laws must it obey - the US, or their own?

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Who is the "they" then?

They is the people who built them. Or paid to have them built. People with more money than we'll ever see.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:23 am

Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:08 pm

TJrandom wrote:I wonder - could the casino angst be extended to Mexico or Canada if they chose to have casinos?


Nations "should be"/mostly are free to do as they wish. "Its none of our business".....until internal issues slop over to affect our own. This is happening right now with China-USA regarding NK. China doesn't want NK to collapse sending millions of starving refugees across their border. USA doesn't want NK to Nuke USA...or grab land from SK. So...China, USA, SK, Japan....all have a "self interest" in what NK does. And its not regarding "internal" issues like whether or not there is gambling.

One huge exception in my mind is that about a decade ago Mexico wanted to or had passed legislation to legalize marijuana, an "internal issue", if you will but USA has its head so far up its ass that we pressured Mexico not to go thru with that legislation. Evidently, we prefer the status quo of illegal heavy drugs flooding our country.

We might not view Casino Angst in the same way. Whatever one American can or can't do legally, then every other American should be treated the same. With all the Pros and Cons attendant thereto, I see the Native Peoples as Americans first...and whatever else second. We should all be treated the same. I am not a Mexican or a Canadian....but within their countries, they also should all be treated the same.

WE ARE ALL THE SAME...............and should be treated as such. I recognize the function/realities of Nation States and the lines that draws between people. I just think it is "bad policy" to draw similar lines within one's own country for Native Peoples. There simply are more cons than pros as we do this.

Simple.

TJrandom wrote: That is, what is a nation, and whose laws must it obey - the US, or their own?

A nation is an area and group of people sovereign to themselves alone. aka: not the Native Peoples on "reservations" anywhere.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:15 pm

Gawd: Sorry, I thought you were making some point about Native Peoples. Yes.......Missouri is rational. Anyone with the money and whatever it takes to build and license a barge can do so.

Here in California, Casino gambling is illegal. Native Peoples are not subject to this law, so by "management agreements" and partnerships, all Casinos are built on Tribal Land with nominal ownership vested in Native People. Its BS. ((I have been to one such casino once to give it a look, the buffet dinner looked great, but I wasn't that hungry. Place was filled with Asians smoking and gambling away. Like an alternate Universe.))

I have no Casino Angst and I actively don't like fishing or whaling. Actually I actively don't like gambling either.....but many do on all acccounts. They/we should all be treated equally before the law.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I wonder - could the casino angst be extended to Mexico or Canada if they chose to have casinos?


Nations "should be"/mostly are free to do as they wish. "Its none of our business".....until internal issues slop over to affect our own. This is happening right now with China-USA regarding NK. China doesn't want NK to collapse sending millions of starving refugees across their border. USA doesn't want NK to Nuke USA...or grab land from SK. So...China, USA, SK, Japan....all have a "self interest" in what NK does. And its not regarding "internal" issues like whether or not there is gambling.

One huge exception in my mind is that about a decade ago Mexico wanted to or had passed legislation to legalize marijuana, an "internal issue", if you will but USA has its head so far up its ass that we pressured Mexico not to go thru with that legislation. Evidently, we prefer the status quo of illegal heavy drugs flooding our country.

We might not view Casino Angst in the same way. Whatever one American can or can't do legally, then every other American should be treated the same. With all the Pros and Cons attendant thereto, I see the Native Peoples as Americans first...and whatever else second. We should all be treated the same. I am not a Mexican or a Canadian....but within their countries, they also should all be treated the same.

WE ARE ALL THE SAME...............and should be treated as such. I recognize the function/realities of Nation States and the lines that draws between people. I just think it is "bad policy" to draw similar lines within one's own country for Native Peoples. There simply are more cons than pros as we do this.

Simple.

TJrandom wrote: That is, what is a nation, and whose laws must it obey - the US, or their own?

A nation is an area and group of people sovereign to themselves alone. aka: not the Native Peoples on "reservations" anywhere.


I understand...

But funny (or not so funny) that here in Japan we have the situation in reverse. People of Korean ancestry, progeny of slavery, are excluded as Japanese because they won`t reject their Korean names in favor of approved Japanese names - 4th, 5th generation, it doesn`t matter.

IMO, if US `native peoples` want to offer gambling on their reservations, I have no issue with that. My only gambling is in the form of purchasing insurance policies.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:52 pm

"approved Japanese names?" thats amusing, raises all kinds of questions. So....what are these Koreans then? Japanese in all respects but can't vote, or receive mail? Sounds like both sides being ultra-pig-headed.

Ha, ha.........no one is more racist than the Japanese. Mostly very well hidden by also being the most polite. Contra: not forcing the Koreans to KEEP their family names. It identifies them so. Any surprising basis for this name issue? Could a Japanese legally change their name to another Japanese name..... or to "Smith" or to a Korean name? Just not keep a Korean name? ............... I'll bet "history" is to blame in some way? Hmmm....if you have Korean slaves.... must have imported some Chinese ones as well? Same restrictions?

Fascinating hereto unknown issue.

Culture. All steps should be taken to homogenize one Nations's various groups. Variety for issues that don't make any difference, or is good for sales.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"approved Japanese names?" thats amusing, raises all kinds of questions. So....what are these Koreans then? Japanese in all respects but can't vote, or receive mail? Sounds like both sides being ultra-pig-headed.

Ha, ha.........no one is more racist than the Japanese. Mostly very well hidden by also being the most polite. Contra: not forcing the Koreans to KEEP their family names. It identifies them so. Any surprising basis for this name issue? Could a Japanese legally change their name to another Japanese name..... or to "Smith" or to a Korean name? Just not keep a Korean name? ............... I'll bet "history" is to blame in some way? Hmmm....if you have Korean slaves.... must have imported some Chinese ones as well? Same restrictions?

Fascinating hereto unknown issue.

Culture. All steps should be taken to homogenize one Nations's various groups. Variety for issues that don't make any difference, or is good for sales.


They are a special category of foreigner, and carry foreigner IDs. They are automatically approved for extensions of stay, since they cannot be deported. But to travel, they need to get their passports from the Korean embassy.

They resist homogenization (forced name changes), but mostly only speak Japanese and are otherwise only discriminated against in areas like obtaining work, becoming police/fire/government employees, etc. – as with all foreigners.

One can petition the courts to change a name - to one habtually used and for which denial would pose an economic hardship. But in general, one could not change a name to a Korean one - and why would you, given the discrimination. The policy is there to force these nominal Koreans to give up their heritage and become Japanese, and white-wash the historical slave issue in the process.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:17 pm

TJ---lots of energy being expended on the issue. Sad to hear....from several perspectives, people being people after all: more similar than different on any relevant measure we can think of? I don't know how forcing Koreans to get Korean permission to travel homogenizes them at all.

Living in a strange land.........homeland not withstanding?
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ---lots of energy being expended on the issue. Sad to hear....from several perspectives, people being people after all: more similar than different on any relevant measure we can think of? I don't know how forcing Koreans to get Korean permission to travel homogenizes them at all.

Living in a strange land.........homeland not withstanding?


The only path to homogenisation is to give up heritage.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:34 pm

Yes. Exactly so. Heritage is a very damaging meaningless concept. "The Dead Hand of History." Looking backwards, not forwards.

Anything can be immensely important but only if you make it so. The more you emphasize heritage, the more you deny your own self made future. How many trouble spots around the world are based on Heritage?

My point exactly.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:39 pm

Odd, but heritage becomes more important, the more demand there is for it to be denied.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gawd: Sorry, I thought you were making some point about Native Peoples. Yes.......Missouri is rational. Anyone with the money and whatever it takes to build and license a barge can do so.

Here in California, Casino gambling is illegal. Native Peoples are not subject to this law, so by "management agreements" and partnerships, all Casinos are built on Tribal Land with nominal ownership vested in Native People. Its BS. ((I have been to one such casino once to give it a look, the buffet dinner looked great, but I wasn't that hungry. Place was filled with Asians smoking and gambling away. Like an alternate Universe.))

I have no Casino Angst and I actively don't like fishing or whaling. Actually I actively don't like gambling either.....but many do on all acccounts. They/we should all be treated equally before the law.

And my point was First Nations don't have a corner on casinos.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:46 pm

I think its a mixed bag. Pros and cons to every position taken..... and positions don't need to be punitive per se.....when possible, I prefer incentivizing the social norms desired.

There was no desire for Heritage until the Indians were able to build Casino's when no one else was allowed to. Now everyone and his brother wants to be an Indian. Heritage.......or greed? All very understandable..... but why allow it? Why more than allow.......why encourage it?

PRAGMATISM: Accentuating heritage creates fractures in a society. BEST: treat all citizens the same. And from your addition: don't BS yourself about who your citizens are.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:47 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: And my point was First Nations don't have a corner on casinos.

Where casinos are illegal: Yes.....they do.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Who is the "they" then?

There are about 6 in my area as well. All Tribal set ups.

My favorite story: some tribe in Massachusettes or some such place had about 22 members in it and a half acre lot they called homeland. Some Jewish business manager got loans from (pick your own gambling related group) all under the titular Tribal Chief. More Land was bought that became Tribal and a typical casino was built. The profits from operation to be shared with tribal members. Yes........immediately long lost tribe members came out of the woodwork all demanding to be recognized. If forget the % of blood required to qualify...but last count the tribe has expanded to several hundreds. Casino Gambling..... right up there with honoring mountain tops and trees in Native American Lore. ===============>its all BS.

Item #2: constant bitching and moaning that life on the reservation doesn't offer any opportunities to the Natives. Well..........leave the fricken reservation and make your way in the world like everyone else.

Do we need more than two reasons?

That must have been Connecticut, since gambling has been illegal in Massachusetts up until only recently. We're getting a casino in Springfield, but it's not a tribal deal; it's a family affair, if you get my drift. Like local traffic isn't already FUBARed, not to mention local businesses. However, perhaps the family will deign to clean up the city, which is currently populated with worse gangs running the (fentanyl-tainted) heroin highway up from New Haven.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes. Exactly so. Heritage is a very damaging meaningless concept. "The Dead Hand of History." Looking backwards, not forwards.

Anything can be immensely important but only if you make it so. The more you emphasize heritage, the more you deny your own self made future. How many trouble spots around the world are based on Heritage?


Yes, teaching Navaho or Objibwa as a first language here in the US is a sure way to keep people in poverty. Our ancestors who reduced their reliance on Italian, Polish, Chinese, or whatever, can now exist here on a relatively level playing field, and still feel affection for their ancestral homelands and traditions.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:52 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:We're getting a casino in Springfield, but it's not a tribal deal; it's a family affair, if you get my drift.

Are you The Simpsons? :hyper:
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:13 am

Yeah..... I thought either the Simpsons or the Mafia. I remember a tv show on a Casino opening up in Springfield. My memory is that Marge destroyed it into a pile of rubble with an overhead monorail? Probably confusing several different news items. The Mafia: still dangerous, no cartoon.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:23 am

Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:We're getting a casino in Springfield, but it's not a tribal deal; it's a family affair, if you get my drift.

Are you The Simpsons? :hyper:

LOL...wrong Springfield. Plus, I don't live there...thankfully! Honestly, I can't see myself with bright blue hair.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:13 am

Awwww.

What about blonde and spikey?
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:38 am

Tom Palven wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes. Exactly so. Heritage is a very damaging meaningless concept. "The Dead Hand of History." Looking backwards, not forwards.

Anything can be immensely important but only if you make it so. The more you emphasize heritage, the more you deny your own self made future. How many trouble spots around the world are based on Heritage?


Yes, teaching Navaho or Objibwa as a first language here in the US is a sure way to keep people in poverty. Our ancestors who reduced their reliance on Italian, Polish, Chinese, or whatever, can now exist here on a relatively level playing field, and still feel affection for their ancestral homelands and traditions.


I disagree. Teaching the `foreign language` as the first/native language ensures it will be learned in spite of the overwhelming influence of the surrounding language - which will be learned anyway, no matter what parents do to resist it. The reason so few people in the US speak a foreign language is because those who cannot say, `Speak English!`

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:23 am

TJ--you are not addressing the larger more important question that TP and I are in agreement on.

WE SAY--this emphasis on Heritage and Native Cultures "traps" its victims in a cycle of poverty.

YOU SAY--this emphasis on Heritage and Native Cultures ensures it (the language) will be learned.

TOTAL DISCONNECT.

The reason so few people in the US speak a foreign language is BECAUSE WE DON'T NEED TO.

If you want your kiddies to succeed in SOCIETY: give them the tools they need. The three "R's"==>in English. If they want to learn some uselss native language as well, thats fine but the 3 R's FIRST. Its even worse when they are taught more than jut language to the point they give up their futures for "life on the reservation" learning "the old ways" and how to eat squirrel and dry fish. Skills not needed in SOCIETY.... making for no surprise why the Native Peoples don't do well.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TJ--you are not addressing the larger more important question that TP and I are in agreement on.

WE SAY--this emphasis on Heritage and Native Cultures "traps" its victims in a cycle of poverty.

YOU SAY--this emphasis on Heritage and Native Cultures ensures it (the language) will be learned.

TOTAL DISCONNECT.

The reason so few people in the US speak a foreign language is BECAUSE WE DON'T NEED TO.

If you want your kiddies to succeed in SOCIETY: give them the tools they need. The three "R's"==>in English. If they want to learn some uselss native language as well, thats fine but the 3 R's FIRST. Its even worse when they are taught more than jut language to the point they give up their futures for "life on the reservation" learning "the old ways" and how to eat squirrel and dry fish. Skills not needed in SOCIETY.... making for no surprise why the Native Peoples don't do well.

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No, you stretch it too far. I do appreciate the distinction of ghetto life repetition, generation to generation - vs learning/science/the three `Rs`, plus the necessity - yes, necessity, of a second language (at a minimum) to succeed. That is, if one is to join the larger world of commerce/society, vs remaining within the ghetto.

Just as ghetto upbringing limits, so does lack of second language and lack of knowledge/appreciation of heritage. Languages spoken was always an interview question where I worked, and it didn`t make too much of a difference which ones - since it ensured an ability to appreciate human differences.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Austin Harper » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:09 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes. Exactly so. Heritage is a very damaging meaningless concept. "The Dead Hand of History." Looking backwards, not forwards.

Anything can be immensely important but only if you make it so. The more you emphasize heritage, the more you deny your own self made future. How many trouble spots around the world are based on Heritage?


Yes, teaching Navaho or Objibwa as a first language here in the US is a sure way to keep people in poverty. Our ancestors who reduced their reliance on Italian, Polish, Chinese, or whatever, can now exist here on a relatively level playing field, and still feel affection for their ancestral homelands and traditions.


I disagree. Teaching the `foreign language` as the first/native language ensures it will be learned in spite of the overwhelming influence of the surrounding language - which will be learned anyway, no matter what parents do to resist it. The reason so few people in the US speak a foreign language is because those who cannot say, `Speak English!`

Well said, TJ. Without native speakers, many of these languages will die out in the next few generations.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:50 pm

TJ===seems to me you lose your position logically and mathematically.

YOU SAY you need a second language "to succeed" in this world. No proof, evidence, statistics for this but you do provide an argument. Some misguided fools required dual language proficiency as part of their hiring process?==>and they don't even care what the second language is? Ha, ha.

Let's consider the world of the inidivual Native Person: his reservation, his "host country" , then the rest of the world. If you want to be successful in most host countries, you have to be proficient in THEIR language. If not, you don't get a chance to go further in your expanding circle of opportunities. Defining success as making it in the wider world is exactly what we are talking about.............utter failure being defined as not being able to get off your own reservation.

I think you are mainly caught on two main false propositions:

1. Preserving culture (language) is a good thing in and of its self.//// Note: It is not. Being highly proficient in a USEFULL language is far better.

2. Learning experiences are open and beneficial to all.//// Note: they aren't. Lots of people are dull-normal in the 100 to 110 IQ's and below. They might learn one language but a second one actually confuses them...especially when the second language is not actually used in the greater society. I am put in mind of a nice exception: learn a near useless language like greek, latin, hebrew. Useless for day to day communication but very usefull in academics, study of history, travel to Israel? Ha, ha.

A. What is lost when languages that aren't used cease to exist?....ie... follow the path of the 1000's of languages that have already done so? Nothing of use. Its like encouraging kiddies to study History or Philosophy. The only job they will be qualified for on graduation is to teach History or Philosophy and the jobs are too limited for that. Learn a Native Language, and what can you do except get a job on the Reservation taking reservations for the annual rain dance?

B. '...ensured an ability to appreciate human differences." //// No it doesn't. You are just using languages spoken as a proxy for such appreciation. If you want to know if someone appreciates human differences======>you ask them relevant questions about that very thing....not assumed proxies.

If I was going to choose a proxy it would be travel. Knowing how to say "Where is the bathroom" in fifteen different languages doesn't lead you to appreciate anything, but learning the different types of toilet paper used around the world (when available) does.

I don't consider myself fluent in any language other than English..... but have traveled more than most. I have learned to pity most people in most of the conditions I have seen in this World. Always nice when you can get away from other people.........when desired.
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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:30 pm

Hardly know where to start. Maybe we are `off-reservation` because you assume some of the Native American languages to be useless. Personally, I don`t - but let’s go to French, German, Russian, Spanish, Hindu, Arabic, etc.

My contention is that US society does great harm to the children of first generation immigrants by saying - Speak English (and thus discouraging use/learning of a `foreign language`) when these children are speaking with and learning that language from their parents. AND, I say that these same children will learn English from the greater society no matter how much one might discourage it. A five year old, having learned a native language at home, will be fluent in English within two years of having started primary school. Hence, a bi-lingual child is created all very naturally.

Of course there are a few people of challenging intelligence for whom manual labor will be their destiny no matter their language skills. And there will always be people who never graduate HS, much less complete a degree. But these outcomes will not primarily be brought about because they first learned a `foreign` language.

And yes - given that language implies culture - being bi-lingual is close to being bi-cultural. Differences of course too, but better to be bilingual and bicultural than not in a world where immigration and international trade and industry is more important than ever. And yes - major international companies do look for bi- and multilingual staff, so having those skills is a plus. I speak from experience – two major US headquartered firms, plus two smaller firms – where over 50% spoke two languages or more, and where the ability to do so was favorably assessed. In one of those smaller firms I had staff with – English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French, German, Tagalog, and Italian – all working primarily in English and Japanese, but also regularly conversing back to their home country subsidiaries for support, aligning resources, conducting tests, etc. for the hospital management system we were developing and installing in Japan hospitals.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:54 pm

Ummmm...... TJ====>the subject and discussion has been and is about NATIVE PEOPLES. So, yeah..... funny you recognize you are off the reservation....but continue anyway?

Closer to the mark: I'm not limiting the effects to USA Native Peoples alone. Its the same everywhere from what I have seen/read.

So, in that spirit, I will go off topic and respond....because while being only a single language speaker, I'm interested in what other people have to say. Weird huh?

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:58 am

Well Bobbo, don't fall off your chair, but I am in agreement with the thrust of your post, and I won't lead you on with this one. I don't know a lot about your native people in the US, but what has happened here with our Aboriginals is probably similar in a lot of ways.

We don't have reservations per se, but we do have Aboriginal settlements where white man would have no desire to settle, even though he can. Then of course we have the big problem of native title where no one can do anything without their approval. They make a fortune out of mining companies.

But they never stop whinging. Oh poor hard done by me. Trouble is many of them are just too lazy to get out of their own way, albeit their have been some very successful Aboriginals. They don't have to live in these Aboriginal towns, they are free to live where they want. But of course that would take effort on their behalf. They would, in the main, prefer whitey to just give it to them.

Whilst their habitation of Australia dates back probably 50,000 years, they were not the original inhabitants. I believe that the original inhabitants were called the Ulu. And what history there is also suggests that the arrival of the Aboriginal people had a lot to do with the demise of the Ulu. But then when whitey arrived, we are accused of conquering them and dispossessing them of their lands.

Our natives generally cannot handle alcohol, but the love to get stuck into it. This has resulted in a plague of domestic violence, apart from violence against whitey, especially our police who try to bring some form of order to their towns.

But as you suggest, it is probably similar all over the world. I believe we should all have equal rights, but it is not the case I can assure you. Handouts, extra social security, car loans that never get paid back, et al.

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Re: Native Peoples: Mostly....... a Crock

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:40 am

Phoenix.... yes I've seen lots of drama about white man's guilt regarding Abo's...and your neighbor the Maoris.

As our comedian Drew Carey once joked: "If they didn't want to lose their land, they should have fought harder."

.......................Just like everyone else throughout History has done. To quote Clint Eastwood: "I know its a rotten deal, but its the only deal you got."

Its real politik. Making artificial distinctions in the family of man...............LONG TERM. No===> longer than THAT==>is not a good idea.

I could be wrong, but I've never seen evidence for it.
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