Beware The Dogs of War

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Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:36 pm

Starts off with an astute quote from James Madison:
http://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/arti ... -collapse/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:37 pm

What's my motivation to click?
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Flash » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:36 am

Oh you will click. Because you are an Internet addict just like almost everybody here. Click, click...click, click,click, click
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:01 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Starts off with an astute quote from James Madison:
http://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/arti ... -collapse/



I've had a gut feeling this would be coming, especially since the 2016 campaign began. Of course, I'm prejudiced, having always hated Theodore Roosevelt for sending the country down the path of imperialism. (Not that the settlement of North America wasn't a form of imperalism, but North America was populated by the conquerors, unlike the Philippines, and the many Latin American countries where America felt it had a right to select the government.) Just like the Little Englanders after World War II, I want America to conduct a phased withdrawal from the role of the world's cop.

But the point of the link is that America isn't going to have any choice about it. There are lots of people saying similar things now. I mention "The Death of Money" (2014) by a guy named Rickards, who says the rest of the world is getting tired of being on a dollar standard and will probably switch to some form of gold-backed SDR (Special Drawing Rights) issued by the IMF. Well, I don't know about that. I'm an economic ignoramus. It looks to me as if---for the moment---America is the 800-pound gorilla who sleeps wherever it wants to. But being bigger than anybody else is not the same as being bigger than EVERYBODY else. If enough other countries combine against the US, it can be humbled.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Flash wrote:Oh you will click. Because you are an Internet addict just like almost everybody here. Click, click...click, click,click, click

Nope.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:25 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Starts off with an astute quote from James Madison:
http://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/arti ... -collapse/



I've had a gut feeling this would be coming, especially since the 2016 campaign began. Of course, I'm prejudiced, having always hated Theodore Roosevelt for sending the country down the path of imperialism. (Not that the settlement of North America wasn't a form of imperalism, but North America was populated by the conquerors, unlike the Philippines, and the many Latin American countries where America felt it had a right to select the government.) Just like the Little Englanders after World War II, I want America to conduct a phased withdrawal from the role of the world's cop.

But the point of the link is that America isn't going to have any choice about it. There are lots of people saying similar things now. I mention "The Death of Money" (2014) by a guy named Rickards, who says the rest of the world is getting tired of being on a dollar standard and will probably switch to some form of gold-backed SDR (Special Drawing Rights) issued by the IMF. Well, I don't know about that. I'm an economic ignoramus. It looks to me as if---for the moment---America is the 800-pound gorilla who sleeps wherever it wants to. But being bigger than anybody else is not the same as being bigger than EVERYBODY else. If enough other countries combine against the US, it can be humbled.


The elephant in the room is the $20 trillion debt, which isn't quite enough.

Bloomberg News is already wringing its hands that the ceiling must be raised sooner rather than later.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... bt-ceiling

No talk anywhere I've heard about a balanced budget that wouldn't require enlarging the debt, and imho Rickards is right. The world is not only tired of the dollar as the world reserve currency, steps are being taken to work around that and avoid the dollar.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:40 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Bloomberg News is already wringing its hands that the ceiling must be raised sooner rather than later.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... bt-ceiling

No talk anywhere I've heard about a balanced budget that wouldn't require enlarging the debt, and imho Rickards is right. The world is not only tired of the dollar as the world reserve currency, steps are being taken to work around that and avoid the dollar.


Yeah, Rickards mentions a number of regional organizations that are seeking ways to dethrone the dollar. The euro looked like a good candidate at the time he was writing (2014). Since Brexit, I don't know...
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:15 am

The USA would have collapsed under its mountain of debt, and its generally low levels of economic productivity, but for one thing. The American dollar is used internationally, and the demand continues to grow. Thus, the USA 'creates' more dollars and uses them to pay for its ridiculous extravagances, like its ludicrously large military.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:57 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:43 am

Tom Palven wrote:A win for the Good Guys:
https://www.courthousenews.com/fbi-agre ... reporters/



Thanks for that. There is so little good news these days. I'd like to think just the exposure of the attacks on speech would change things, but I'm too cynical about the American public to nourish that hope. The only kind of "speech" that's really protected is the right to buy a legislature with corporate money. After all, in accordance with the Roberts Supreme Court, "money = speech" and "corporation = citizen".
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:25 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:A win for the Good Guys:
https://www.courthousenews.com/fbi-agre ... reporters/



Thanks for that. There is so little good news these days. I'd like to think just the exposure of the attacks on speech would change things, but I'm too cynical about the American public to nourish that hope. The only kind of "speech" that's really protected is the right to buy a legislature with corporate money. After all, in accordance with the Roberts Supreme Court, "money = speech" and "corporation = citizen".


I agree with where you're coming from, and think that the sacred cows of Big Military, Big Pharma, and Big Education, probably among other biggies, are problems.

But I'm not sure that I agree with you on limitations of speech.

Voltaire said "I may agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

I wouldn't go as far as Voltaire, but at least I'll publicly acknowledge your right to say anything you want to.

And by the same token I wouldn't pass laws that even limit the "speech" (Freedom to support Congresscritters of their choice.) of corporations.

I agree with Spiked News on this issue that all limitations on speech including libel laws, copyright laws, etc., should be abolished:
http://www.spiked-online.com/freespeechnow

But yes, the problems of corporate influence should be addressed. The Guy Fawkes way would be fine with me, or even the virtual bankruptcy of the US (The US can't go totally bankrupt when it has, like Zimbabwe, the ability to print money.)

That's radical, and I won't criticize you for being more moderate.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:35 pm

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:56 pm

Tom Palven wrote:I agree with where you're coming from, and think that the sacred cows of Big Military, Big Pharma, and Big Education, probably among other biggies, are problems.

But I'm not sure that I agree with you on limitations of speech.

Voltaire said "I may agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

I wouldn't go as far as Voltaire, but at least I'll publicly acknowledge your right to say anything you want to.

And by the same token I wouldn't pass laws that even limit the "speech" (Freedom to support Congresscritters of their choice.) of corporations.

I agree with Spiked News on this issue that all limitations on speech including libel laws, copyright laws, etc., should be abolished:
http://www.spiked-online.com/freespeechnow

But yes, the problems of corporate influence should be addressed. The Guy Fawkes way would be fine with me, or even the virtual bankruptcy of the US (The US can't go totally bankrupt when it has, like Zimbabwe, the ability to print money.)

That's radical, and I won't criticize you for being more moderate.


And here I thought I was the most radical person I know, except for my son and son-in-law. :)

I just don't see spending money as in any way the equivalent of speech. Corporations don't have and shouldn't have a vote. Therefore, I would absolutely exclude them from contributing to political campaigns. Their wealthy executives can contribute, just like anyone else. But even there, there should be a limit to the size of an individual's donation to a political campaign. Not doing that has led us to the current fee-for-service Congress we have.

Oddly, though, I found myself siding with the pharmaceutical companies this week against Trump's attempts to cut medical insurance payments. They are, as always, looking out for themselves, but in this case their interest aligns better with that of the public.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby TJrandom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:09 pm

If corporations are citizens and should have free speech rights, then bankruptcy is abortion and a corporate buyout is the equivalent of human trafficking.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:17 pm

"If corporations are people can we eat them?"
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Monster » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:23 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Starts off with an astute quote from James Madison:
http://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/arti ... -collapse/

This is the title of the article.

"BEWARE THE DOGS OF WAR: IS THE AMERICAN EMPIRE ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE?"

That caught my eye right away. What defines the "verge of collapse"? It seems like any empire or nation is on the verge of collapse, all the time.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:24 pm

Upton

I agree that corporations should not be permitted to contribute to politicians. I would go further and make it illegal (prison penalty) for anyone to give money to a politician, except for taxpayers. Campaigns should be given a set sum of money by the taxpayer, and the politician should be prohibited, on pain of a prison sentence, from using money from any other source. That would stop bribes, and put people on the proverbial 'level playing field.'

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:41 pm

Monster wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Starts off with an astute quote from James Madison:
http://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/arti ... -collapse/

This is the title of the article.

"BEWARE THE DOGS OF WAR: IS THE AMERICAN EMPIRE ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE?"

That caught my eye right away. What defines the "verge of collapse"? It seems like any empire or nation is on the verge of collapse, all the time.

Loosey-goosey definition of "empire" has me chuckling.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby TJrandom » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:29 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Upton

I agree that corporations should not be permitted to contribute to politicians. I would go further and make it illegal (prison penalty) for anyone to give money to a politician, except for taxpayers. Campaigns should be given a set sum of money by the taxpayer, and the politician should be prohibited, on pain of a prison sentence, from using money from any other source. That would stop bribes, and put people on the proverbial 'level playing field.'


Yes... but. The government and politicians work for more than just taxpayers - for example, the retired, students, indigent, those hospitalised, etc. I too would ban corporate donations - as this would eliminate the influence of foreign ownership too.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:47 pm

TJ

THe fact that they work for more than taxpayers is irrelevant, since the taxpayers are not asking anything in exchange for the money.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:23 am

Is our political class mentally ill, incompetent, evil, empathetically and ethically-challenged, or all of the above?

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017 ... tally-ill/
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby TJrandom » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:03 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

THe fact that they work for more than taxpayers is irrelevant, since the taxpayers are not asking anything in exchange for the money.


Of course taxpayers are asking for - representation.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:33 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"If corporations are people can we eat them?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

As long as you don't TAX them. It's been remarked that our pre-revolutionary role-model philosopher John Locke worshipped property so intensely that in his ethics, it would be permitted to flog criminals, but not to fine them. We now see the consequence of Locke's principles.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:45 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"If corporations are people can we eat them?"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

As long as you don't TAX them. It's been remarked that our pre-revolutionary role-model philosopher John Locke worshipped property so intensely that in his ethics, it would be permitted to flog criminals, but not to fine them. We now see the consequence of Locke's principles.

Time for us to get UnLocke'd.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:42 pm

The way that the very wealthy fail to get sufficiently taxed is a clear indication of the corruption of the system.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:19 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:The way that the very wealthy fail to get sufficiently taxed is a clear indication of the corruption of the system.

Thing is, they'd just pass the expense along to the little guys away. 300,000,000 American pay $1 more for their whatevers and somebody's a third of a billion dollars richer.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:31 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The way that the very wealthy fail to get sufficiently taxed is a clear indication of the corruption of the system.

Thing is, they'd just pass the expense along to the little guys away. 300,000,000 American pay $1 more for their whatevers and somebody's a third of a billion dollars richer.

Not if you are taxing investments in instruments such as derivatives which create profits out of endogenous money. There are $trillions available there that taxing would not hurt anything or anyone at all.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:01 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The way that the very wealthy fail to get sufficiently taxed is a clear indication of the corruption of the system.

Thing is, they'd just pass the expense along to the little guys away. 300,000,000 American pay $1 more for their whatevers and somebody's a third of a billion dollars richer.

Not if you are taxing investments in instruments such as derivatives which create profits out of endogenous money. There are $trillions available there that taxing would not hurt anything or anyone at all.

Again, if the super rich lose money in any fashion they will recoup the loss from the less well off.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:10 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The way that the very wealthy fail to get sufficiently taxed is a clear indication of the corruption of the system.

Thing is, they'd just pass the expense along to the little guys away. 300,000,000 American pay $1 more for their whatevers and somebody's a third of a billion dollars richer.

Not if you are taxing investments in instruments such as derivatives which create profits out of endogenous money. There are $trillions available there that taxing would not hurt anything or anyone at all.

Again, if the super rich lose money in any fashion they will recoup the loss from the less well off.


Yes, as the Russians have formulated the principle: The shortage will be divided equally among the peasants.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:24 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The way that the very wealthy fail to get sufficiently taxed is a clear indication of the corruption of the system.

Thing is, they'd just pass the expense along to the little guys away. 300,000,000 American pay $1 more for their whatevers and somebody's a third of a billion dollars richer.

Not if you are taxing investments in instruments such as derivatives which create profits out of endogenous money. There are $trillions available there that taxing would not hurt anything or anyone at all.

Again, if the super rich lose money in any fashion they will recoup the loss from the less well off.

Most money is endogenous atm. The middle/lower class's money is fiat, and, ultimately, based on productivity.

Taxing profits from endogenous money instruments doesn't affect fiat money. Wage slaves aren't at the bottom of this pile. Nothing is. That is why some governments felt compelled to bail out failing banks in 2008. Those, like Iceland, who did not, were among the first to recover.

A few uberwealthy, such as Gates, get their money from fiat sources, so taxing their profits excessively would affect the pissantry. Even then, there are serious limits on how much the wealthy can pass on. Corporations can, to some degree, but individuals not so much. If you are not buying anything from Richbitchski, she can't pass anything back to you. Individual Americans who lost a bundle in 2008 didn't get bailed out by the government.

The longest period of stable, sustained economic growth the world has seen is from 1947 - 1963, a period characterized by the highest taxes on the wealthy. One of the reasons is that most of the tax loopholes involved investing in the community (ie, investments that create jobs). Nowadays, that isn't true. Modern tax loopholes are for the purpose of evading taxes, not for benefitting the community.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:31 pm

A lot of economist babble there.

"If you laid every economist in the world end to end they'd all point in different directions."
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:43 pm

If the rich were taxed fairly (in other words, at the same percentage as better off wage earners), they would still be rich. If a person 'earns' $100,000,000 each year, and pays only $1,000,000 in tax, and is then forced to pay $30,000,000 per year instead, they will still be 'earning' $70,000,000 per year. I cannot ever feel sorry for someone 'earning' $70 million each year.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:57 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:A lot of economist babble there.


"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength."
http://humansarefree.com/2013/01/what-m ... om-is.html

We might add "Debt is Prosperity," or something similar, to that slogan.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:03 pm

"humansarefee"? Sorry, life's too short.
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The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:04 am

Anyone understand what Godzilla is on about?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:05 am

Tom Palven wrote:Anyone understand what Godzilla is on about?

It's in the URL, Tom.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:15 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Anyone understand what Godzilla is on about?

It's in the URL, Tom.


"humansarefee"?

And life is too short for fee?

Ar yeew shur?
Last edited by Tom Palven on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:16 am

If you wish to check my spelling before each post please let me know when you arrive at Lambert Field and I'll meet you.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:24 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If you wish to check my spelling before each post please let me know when you arrive at Lambert Field and I'll meet you.


Well what, then?

Life is too sort for freedom?

What was the Civil War about? And the Revolutionary War and lots of other wars, mostly started now to deny other people freedom from The Empire and its lackeys, or possibly Israel and its lackeys, including the US, although they are getting fewer and fewer.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Beware The Dogs of War

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:33 am

Life's too short to chase random links.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.


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