Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Where have we been?
User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:45 pm

A southern friend of mine names Abraham Lincoln, who, he says, was far worse than Lenin.

As for me, my choice has been consistent for over half a century: Richard Nixon wins hands-down. I used to back up my claim with all the stuff he managed in the Watergate scandal, but now we've got recent evidence that he was much much worse than that, so much worse that we can just forget about Watergate. Compared to America's Richard I, Shakespeare's Richard III was a saint:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/document-po ... p-attempt/

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... notes.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opin ... chery.html

This record may yet be broken by Trump, however. It's early days yet.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29273
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:37 am

When you say "vile", are you judging only by actions or does flavour come into it too?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19658
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:43 am

How many have you bitten? :shock:
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29273
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:51 am

Six. "But they were all bad."
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19658
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:58 am

Past their extirpation dates, I guess. :sick:
Hi, Io the lurker.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:15 am

Nixon did some good as well. "Vile" is so imprecise. He did turn over the tapes, and he did step down. Two good moves that we are waiting to see if T.Rump will emulate.

Without all that much to go on....I think Andrew Jackson is often mentioned in this vein, Indian fighter that he was. I think its difficult to "build a country" and not be pretty vile. Of course.... the alternative of ......... what? 13 original state half of which would be sovereign Indian Land?.........is also pretty vile in my book.

Who's ox is that?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3185
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:38 pm

William Henry Harrison, no question: he spend his entire presidency coughing up vile stuff, never got anything done during his entire term.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nixon did some good as well. "Vile" is so imprecise. He did turn over the tapes, and he did step down. Two good moves that we are waiting to see if T.Rump will emulate.

Without all that much to go on....I think Andrew Jackson is often mentioned in this vein, Indian fighter that he was. I think its difficult to "build a country" and not be pretty vile. Of course.... the alternative of ......... what? 13 original state half of which would be sovereign Indian Land?.........is also pretty vile in my book.

Who's ox is that?



Don't know whose ox that is. Both of your points are clear. I would add only that Nixon had very little choice about turning over the tapes. It was that or face immediate impeachment. He resisted as long as he dared. But deliberately prolonging a war in order to get elected, and attempting to discredit the witnesses to an atrocity.... That's pretty vile. How many thousands of people died so this schemer could inhabit the White House?

It wasn't Nixon's fault, but most of the principals involved in the My Lai massacre skated with little or no punishment. Even the misfit who was in charge of murdering the 400 civilians at My Lai, Lieutenant Calley, was first sentenced to life imprisonment at hard labor, then had that reduced to 20 years, and eventually went free after less than 3 years. So Nixon wasn't the only one culpable in this incident.


My southern friend (a native of Tennessee) thinks Jackson was a pretty great guy, but he does confess some uneasiness about that whole Trail-of-Tears thing. Jackson certainly gets high marks for vileness.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19698
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:16 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:William Henry Harrison, no question: he spend his entire presidency coughing up vile stuff, never got anything done during his entire term.

Ever wonder how much collateral damage that speech caused?
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3185
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:37 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:William Henry Harrison, no question: he spend his entire presidency coughing up vile stuff, never got anything done during his entire term.

Ever wonder how much collateral damage that speech caused?


Listening to politicians is always dangerous - the State of the Union address should come with a public health warning.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19698
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:44 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:William Henry Harrison, no question: he spend his entire presidency coughing up vile stuff, never got anything done during his entire term.

Ever wonder how much collateral damage that speech caused?


Listening to politicians is always dangerous - the State of the Union address should come with a public health warning.

Yeah, but the SotU is usually done indoors.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:36 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote: My southern friend (a native of Tennessee) thinks Jackson was a pretty great guy.... Jackson certainly gets high marks for vileness.

Character evidence for the vileness of someone he never met?.................. Close enough.

I'm thinking: how many Presedents can we list that did NOT do something vile while in Office? Even the very Great George Washington owned slaves. thats how you got rich in that day and times. Very "understandable" but still very vile?

Such detailed knowledge re presidents is lacking in myself. Mostly: no info. Most pop culture "highlights" are all laudible. Lincoln perhaps although he did suspend habeas corpus, and many think approached the issue of slavery from too political a perspective.

My best "known" President would be Obama. I disagree with quite a lot..and FAILURE to prosecute Wall Street Banksters comes in pretty high on my vile meter, but I suppose not so much for most people? But money is the root of all evil.... and Banksters have most of it? Must be a connection somewhere?

Ha, ha..........then we have the opposite challenge: T.Rump: what has he done so fare that is NOT vile? There's another stumper.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:08 am

stupidity does more damage - Truman -
source - Oliver Stone's untold history of the united states
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
I'm thinking: how many Presedents can we list that did NOT do something vile while in Office? Even the very Great George Washington owned slaves. thats how you got rich in that day and times. Very "understandable" but still very vile?


I'm afraid Machiavelli was right: A "prince" will sometimes be compelled to do some evil, disgusting things, or else become an ex-prince of an ex-principality. The more I look at Washington, the less I admire him. He was vain and self-seeking, and of course, owned slaves. Hamilton said that Jefferson sold his own children as slaves, those he had with Sally Hemmings. The tours of Monticello nowadays (so I'm told) are open and honest about those children and their descendants. The last time I was there (around 1974), they didn't even mention the word "slave." It was said that the work of removing bedpans was done by "servants." You know, like faithful old Hudson in "Upstairs, Downstairs."

So, granted, none of these people meet the highest contemporary standards. Even making allowances for "the times they lived in" though, it is really impossible to ignore Jackson's dispossession of the Cherokees in defiance of a Supreme Court ruling or Jefferson's shtupping one of his slaves (who probably had to at least pretend she was delighted by the prospect---what she really felt, we'll never know) and then---if Hamilton wasn't simply lying---selling off the harvest.

Stupidity is another matter. I've got quite a lot to say against GW Bush and Obama both in their early years. Neither of them had sufficient experience to be President, and neither was quite up to the job. They gave a double whammy of misery to Iraq as a result. But they did both learn, Obama somewhat faster and better than Bush. Obama normalized relations with Iran, with whom Trump is about to get us into a war.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see if the particular combination of stupidity, arrogance, and evil that is Trump has the results I expect. If he starts a war with Iran, or gives them what they believe to be a pretext for war, all hell is going to break loose.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19698
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:56 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:stupidity does more damage - Truman -
source - Oliver Stone's untold history of the united states

Is that a Truman quote?
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8186
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Poodle » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:19 pm

The nearest I can find is "... stupid clever people do much more damage than stupid untutored morons ...". But it wasn't Truman - it was Terry Pratchett.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:42 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:stupidity does more damage - Truman -
source - Oliver Stone's untold history of the united states

Is that a Truman quote?


from the documentary film - not a quote
Truman got into the senate because tom pendergast wanted to show that a well oiled machine could get an office boy elected ..

and if you watch the film it also points out that he was picked for vice president because corrupt businessmen
and politicians ( including Winston Churchill ) hated Henry Wallace .

watch the film - it explains why the cold war happened .
because Truman was picked by big business to be vice president .
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19698
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:44 pm

Buddha save me from a person who uses videos as a substitute for erudition. {!#%@} the University of Youtube.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

User avatar
psychiatry is a scam
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1274
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:21 am

yall is here , and oliver stone would never bother .
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

Subaru7
New Member
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:55 pm

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Subaru7 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:30 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:... it is really impossible to ignore Jackson's dispossession of the Cherokees in defiance of a Supreme Court ruling....

Jackson was the worst until recently. That slave owner would rank as practicing genocide and ethnic cleansing if he were alive today.

Now, mass-murdering, war criminal G. W. Bush outranks him for the vileness award.
.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:52 pm

Subaru7 wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:... it is really impossible to ignore Jackson's dispossession of the Cherokees in defiance of a Supreme Court ruling....

Jackson was the worst until recently. That slave owner would rank as practicing genocide and ethnic cleansing if he were alive today.

Now, mass-murdering, war criminal G. W. Bush outranks him for the vileness award.
.



We certainly have a lot of candidates here. Bush was not by intention evil, but he was an irresponsible frat boy who knew nothing about governing, and allowed the dregs of humanity (Rumsfeld and Cheney) to make policy for him. Well, incompetence and ignorance are not an excuse in a President.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Monster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4988
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Tarrytown, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Monster » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:44 pm

A lot of presidents have done things to lengthen wars for political gain, which I consider spectacularly evil. Nixon comes to mind.

However, my opinion for the most evil president goes to Andrew Jackson. He should never have been on the money.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:55 am

Monster wrote:A lot of presidents have done things to lengthen wars for political gain, which I consider spectacularly evil. Nixon comes to mind.

However, my opinion for the most evil president goes to Andrew Jackson. He should never have been on the money.


Yeah, it's really hard to choose when there are so many qualified candidates. I go back and forth on whether it's worse to start an unjust war (McKinley, GW Bush, Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson, Reagan) or prolong one (Nixon). One reason I favor Nixon is that he also put the CIA up to getting Salvador Allende assassinated in Chile and subjecting the Chileans to the Pinochet reign of terror. All that in the name of combatting the evil called socialism. What it really was, of course, was a case of the playground bully making an example of the first kid who stood up to him.

But there's lots of other skullduggery to go around (as, I hasten to add, is the case with any other country that ever had major political power!) There's Theodore Roosevelt beating up the Spanish, then allowing the first General Macarthur to steal away the independence of the Philippines. There's Woodrow Wilson (accurately described by Roosevelt as "that damned Presbyterian hypocrite) mouthing pieties about self-determination, but restricting it to Europeans. There's Harry Truman, formulating the Truman Doctrine of our support for small independent nations (like Greece) resisting imperialist powers. But not Viet Nam. He filed away and forgot the repeated pleas of Ho Chi Minh for help in maintaining its independence; those pleas were not discovered until decades later. And he allowed the French to use American weapons to murder 6000 Vietnamese in Haiphong on November 23, 1946---all so they could attempt to re-incorporate the place in their defunct empire. Well, I could go on. Politics is a dirty business and international power politics is the dirtiest of all.

But I agree that Jackson is either number 1 or number 2. I always thought of him as Number Two.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Has No Life
Posts: 19698
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:11 am
Custom Title: Deadly but evil.

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Not much context in this thread.
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:55 pm

Well, book TV just offered up Andrew Johnson as the worst in history as he was an out and out racist who followed Lincoln into office. I must not have been watching too closely because the show offered up a lot of positive statements about the "second birth of the constitution" with the passage of the 13-15th Amendments and the ascension of blacks into politics. Hmmm....maybe because Johnson put into place the actions that would negate their progress in the 50 years that followed and that WE CAN STILL SEE TODAY!

Ha, ha----- what does it say when we have so many to choose from? We can all name on one hand the number of good ones...........then argue all night about the bad ones? Quite Exceptional.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well, book TV just offered up Andrew Johnson as the worst in history as he was an out and out racist who followed Lincoln into office. I must not have been watching too closely because the show offered up a lot of positive statements about the "second birth of the constitution" with the passage of the 13-15th Amendments and the ascension of blacks into politics. Hmmm....maybe because Johnson put into place the actions that would negate their progress in the 50 years that followed and that WE CAN STILL SEE TODAY!

Ha, ha----- what does it say when we have so many to choose from? We can all name on one hand the number of good ones...........then argue all night about the bad ones? Quite Exceptional.



For sure. Again, we're focusing entirely on the US. If we asked who was the worst Prime Minister in British history, or the worst tsar, or the worst kaiser (well, not many of them to begin with), we'd be able to dredge up some pretty bad things, so despite the fact that it's very easy to damn American Presidents, I'm trying to keep a sense of perspective.

My experience over what is now becoming a long life goes far back to the beginning of the Cold War, when you could read a lot of spot-on criticism of the US in Communist or leftist publications, but the USSR was often allowed to skate. It was an unfair double standard, judging the US by what actually happens there and the USSR by the picture painted by its own propaganda.

But, speaking of the good ones, it seems very hard to find many who were both competent and "virtuous" (for want of a better word). Carter---virtue but not competence. FDR maybe the optimal combination, though he made a lot of mistakes and didn't always have virtuous intentions. Well, he's human, that's all.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:00 am

There was a good czar?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26590
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There was a good czar?
Peter the Great. He made men shave their beards, lived with his boyfriend in a cottage and pretended to be a sailor in London and Amsterdam to steal sailing technology.(.....or so he claimed.) :D
Peter.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:37 am

Well.... he did found St Peterburg which is very enjoyable to walk around in the summer time. I thought about Peter as i posted....but Shirley one exception does not change the rule???? Without any basis at all, you don't get to be called "Great" without killing a lot of people..............so....... who got it in the neck?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26590
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: you don't get to be called "Great" without killing a lot of people..............so....... who got it in the neck?
The "Old believers" who had beards and wandered around Russia like Rasputin and medieval beggar clerics. Peter was a moderniser and imported lots of Germans and European culture.

Amazingly, Europe adopted Russian dining , which is dining with courses.
:D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_%C3%A0_la_russe

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:51 am

So, he really was great, in addition to tall. I think I thought that when travelling in Russia....but forgot it. Time to sail down the Volga once again.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26590
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:07 am

It's one of those weird things about humans. The Brits like Oscar Wilde although he was really a child molester. The Russians love Peter while openly acknowledging he was gay and hating upper-class gay boys. The Yanks like Thomas Jefferson who owned slaves and yet had children with his slaves. I think this is natural. When Caesar was cremated in the forum, you could love Caesar the man but hate Caesar the dictator.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
True Skeptic
Posts: 10648
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:41 am

Yeap..... as in hooman = hypocrits. Its like Cheney being a leader of the Anti-Gay Republican Far Right Wing...but all for gays because of his daughter. Once any "connection" is formed, the individual cases are made more on their merits, or loves, than the more general but weaker prejudice. All the time with family members...a bit more rare with historical figures we think we know just a bit or have one or two notions about what they did that was good and running counter to the narrative.

It is weird. .... or being so well known, not weird.... just a notable fact?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:17 pm

From Tolstoy's War and Peace, on the cost of being GREAT, illustrating the point that you don't get to be great unless you get a lot of people killed:

"Then, when it becomes no longer possible to stretch such elastic threads of historical reasoning any farther, when an action becomes manifestly opposed to that which all humanity regards as virtue and even justice, the saving concept of greatness arises among the historians. Greatness seems to exclude the possibility of any standard of good and evil. For a great man, there is nothing evil. There is no enormity that could ever be charged against a man who is great.

"C'est grand!" say the historians, and then there is no longer good and evil, only great and not great. Great is good; not great is evil. Great[ness] is, in their view, a property possessed by a select group of beings whom they call heroes. And Napoleon, wearing a warm overcoat and fleeing homeward away from dying men who were not only his comrades but also men whom (as he thought) he had led to that place had a sense of "que c'est grand"; and there was peace in his soul.

"From the sublime (he sees something sublime in himself) to the ridiculous is but a single step," he says. And for 50 years, the whole world will be repeating, "Sublime! Great! Napoleon the Great!" From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a single step.

And it will never occur to anyone that to recognize a greatness that cannot be measured by the standard of right and wrong is only a confession of one's own insignificance and wretched meanness.

For us, with the standard of right and wrong given to us by Christ, there is nothing that cannot be measured. And there is no greatness where there is no simplicity, virtue, and truth."
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:24 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well.... he did found St Peterburg which is very enjoyable to walk around in the summer time. I thought about Peter as i posted....but Shirley one exception does not change the rule???? Without any basis at all, you don't get to be called "Great" without killing a lot of people..............so....... who got it in the neck?



But of course, Petersburg was built on the bones of the serfs sent there. And the land it was on was conquered from Sweden at great cost in lives and treasure. Peter was an amazing man, but he didn't get to be great without getting a lot of people killed. In his defense, it must be said, like George Washington, he himself went into battle and stood up under fire, unlike many generals, some of whom never heard a shot fired in anger. and especially unlike Napoleon, at least in his later years. It is said that at the last desperate moment at Waterloo, Napoleon prepared to lead the Imperial Guard in a Hail Mary charge against the British, but was dissuaded by being told that if he was killed, the whole battle would have been for nothing. (Sure, sure, I believe that, don't you?) Tolstoy says the Imperial Guard did nothing the whole time Napoleon was in Russia, except for looting. I believe it. It was a very cushy job for any soldier, and Napoleon was so proud of his "Praetorians" that he was reluctant to risk anything with them. They got WAY out of practice doing that bravery thing, and Wellington's soldiers made them run away at Waterloo, leading to the "sauve-qui-peut" at the end of the day.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: Who is/was the vilest President in US History?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There was a good czar?


Yeah, these things are relative. Alexander I started off well, having learned a lot of liberal ideas from his grandmother Catherine the Great. She got scared after the French Revolution and turned against all the liberals whose ideas she had embraced earlier, but by that time Alexander's character was formed. Alexander, in the memorable phrase of Thomas Gray took the opportunity to "wade through slaughter to a throne," being probably privy to the murder of his father Paul (just as, ironically, Alexander the Great was privy to the murder of his father Philip). Alexander also got disillusioned, turned very religious and finally more or less abdicated. His first adviser Speransky was fairly liberal. The later one, Arakcheev (whose very name suggests a phobia!) was a conservative. After Alexander's successor Nicholas I gave the Russians 30 years of reaction and got them into a humiliating defeat in the Crimean War, they got another, rather reluctant liberal Alexander II, who "liberated" the serfs about the way the current Republicans want to liberate Americans from Obamacare, and exactly the way Diem "liberated" the peasants in South Viet Nam. Still, he was comparatively good for a tsar. Naturally the terminally stupid Russian radicals assassinated him just 136 years ago this week. He was followed by a firm-but-fair conservative Alexander III, and then by Nicholas II, whose stupidity rivaled that of the Russian radicals.
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: He Who Usually Means Well
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Well, maybe it WAS Jackson

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:47 am

It's all a matter of what one sees up close. And one picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.history.com/topics/native-am ... l-of-tears
"A general conversion among the boys was once effected by the late excellent Mr. Fletcher: one poor boy only excepted, who unfortunately resisted the influence of the Holy Spirit, for which he was severely flogged; which did not fail of the desired effect, and impressed proper notions of religion on his mind."

James Lackington, Memoirs of the First Forty-five Years of the Life of James Lackington, the Present Bookseller


Return to “History”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest