Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

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Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:20 pm

I'm thinking back to Ben Franklin's famous aphorism "Taxation without representation is tyranny." Well, if so, and the US has legally accepted these people as permanent residents, then they are certainly paying taxes, and certainly have a personal stake in the way the country is run. What moral justification exists for denying them the right to vote? I say, use the motor-voter principle: If a person is a legal resident, has a permanent address, and a driver's license, then that person should be allowed to vote in both local and national elections.

If voter requirements are too loose, and people want to require a minimal knowledge of civics and the English language, that's OK, but immigrant status shouldn't be a barrier. (Actually, these extra requirements would exclude Trump and many of his cabinet appointees, whose language skills are on the elementary-school level and whose knowledge of civics is nil.)

Note added: Sorry, I thought I was clicking on the Politics button. If this is not a suitable topic under history, please move it to that board.
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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:36 pm

Because it is a loss of power for those who have the power now. When Ben Franklin said it, it was to gain power for those who didn't have it then.

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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:40 pm

Good reply. That certainly answers "why" in the sense of "What causes this?"

I'm still wondering about "why" in the sense of "the reason it would be wrong."
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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Gord » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:39 pm

Well, consider this: https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-11-01/ ... -they-live

...People born in Guam, the Virgin Islands, the Northern Mariana Islands, American Samoa, and Puerto Rico...can't vote for president....

...This is in spite of the fact that they're all US citizens (except for American Samoans, who are only US nationals....)

So, why is this — why can't all US citizens vote in general elections? The short answer: Because the Electoral College says so....

...Unless citizens in U.S. Territories have official residency (domicile) in a U.S. State or the District of Columbia (and vote by absentee ballot or travel to their State to vote), they cannot vote in the presidential election....

Even some citizens can't vote for president. You have to be both a citizen and have official residency in a US state or the District of Columbia.
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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:29 pm

Gord wrote:Well, consider this: https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-11-01/ ... -they-live

...People born in Guam, the Virgin Islands, the Northern Mariana Islands, American Samoa, and Puerto Rico...can't vote for president....

...This is in spite of the fact that they're all US citizens (except for American Samoans, who are only US nationals....)

So, why is this — why can't all US citizens vote in general elections? The short answer: Because the Electoral College says so....

...Unless citizens in U.S. Territories have official residency (domicile) in a U.S. State or the District of Columbia (and vote by absentee ballot or travel to their State to vote), they cannot vote in the presidential election....

Even some citizens can't vote for president. You have to be both a citizen and have official residency in a US state or the District of Columbia.


I totally agree. Immigrant status is not the ONLY disenfranchisement. The Electoral College is an even worse one, giving citizens of some states four times as many votes as citizens of other states. But one thing at a time. One disenfranchisement doesn't justify another.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Gord » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:32 am

No, but I figure the reasoning must be connected somehow.
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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby OutOfBreath » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:25 am

I havent understood how US Citizens can stomach voter disenfranchisment as semi-legitimate election tactics. Most of this stuff is hang-arounds from segregation days, and unimproved so that poor (black) folks in certain areas are inconvenienced out of polls.

A rational approach would be to guarantee voters a maximum of say 2-hours waiting time, requiring states to fund the necessary measures. If you really believe in Democracy, then getting as many as possible to vote should always be the number 1 goal. Not carving out political fiefs by gerrymandering and not improving voting conditions in populated areas.

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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:41 pm

"...not improving voting conditions in populated areas."


"You cannot have a democracy where voter suppression is normalized..."If you undermine voting,"..."everything else falls apart."

Official Pushes Voter ID At Selma Anniversary Service
...
In October 2015, [Alabama’s Secretary of State John] Merrill insisted that the closure of 31 driver's license offices — many in majority black counties — would not prevent residents from obtaining the government-issued photo ID required to vote in Alabama.

Before the 2016 election, he went on to blast automatic voter registration, saying that it would "cheapen" the work of civil rights leaders.
...
He then lashed out at criticism of Alabama's registration process and threatened to prosecute a filmmaker who described registering to vote in the state as "complex and complicated."
.

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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:21 pm

Gord wrote:No, but I figure the reasoning must be connected somehow.



Very likely, it's all of a piece.
"Reserve a part of your wrath ; you have not seen the worst yet. You suppose that this war has been a criminal blunder and an exceptional horror ; you imagine that before long reason will prevail, and all these inferior people that govern the world will be swept aside, and your own party will reform everything and remain always in office. You are mistaken."

George Santayana, "Tipperary" (1918)

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Re: Why shouldn't permanent residents of the US vote here?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:22 am

Permanent residents can vote here, they just have to become citizens. If that's too much why should we give them the vote?
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