One Decade- 1968-1978

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One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:53 pm

I968 Richard Nixon elected President, sworn in on Quaker family Bible turned to page containing beating swords into plowshares.

1972 Nixon visited Moscow and negotiated an Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with Russia., and was the first sitting President to visit China, establishing relations there.

Nixon took the US off what remained of the gold/silver standard with silver coins being changed to silver-colored copper coins, and said "We are all Keynesians now," opening the door to unlimited spending and the eventual "quantitative easing" and a $20 trillion debt.

The Nixon administration declared a "war on drugs" and initiated the No-Knock Laws, co-sponsored in the Senate by Democrat Ted Kennedy, which led to the militarization of US police.

In 1973 Nixon ended conscription and withdrew US troops from Vietnam.

1976 Jimmy Carter was elected President. On his second day in office he pardoned Vietnam War draft-dodgers.

1978 The Carter administration expanded the US bureaucracy with the creation of the Departments of Energy and Education.

In 1978 the Chinese Communist Party picked free market advocate Deng Xiaoping to lead them out of their economic nightmare. It worked, and for the last four decades central command economists like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich have been chanting a mantra that the Chinese economy is overheated and about to crash, while the Chinese government loans the US money.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:36 pm

Casting Deng Xiaopeng as a free marketeer is rather dubious, no. Granted he wasnt quite the megalomaniac incompetent that was Mao, but not sure he'd pass muster in the "knights of the free market" corner...

Just saying. :)

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:27 pm

I killed a lot of people.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:16 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Casting Deng Xiaopeng as a free marketeer is rather dubious, no. Granted he wasnt quite the megalomaniac incompetent that was Mao, but not sure he'd pass muster in the "knights of the free market" corner...

Just saying. :)

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Deng was a solid communist when he studied in France and is Russia, but may have had a Road to Damascus economic conversion when visiting Singapore.

As leader of China he is quoted as saying "Getting rich is glorious," which makes him sound like a barmy Ayn Rand devotee. :D
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:04 pm

Gawdzilla Sama confessed:
I killed a lot of people.

Look, nobody is interested but good for you and now don't forget to take your happy pill... or two or three. ;)
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:43 pm

Flash wrote:Gawdzilla Sama confessed:
I killed a lot of people.

Look, nobody is interested but good for you and now don't forget to take your happy pill... or two or three. ;)

Suddenly you think I care if you even notice my posts? Why is that?
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:09 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:Casting Deng Xiaopeng as a free marketeer is rather dubious, no. Granted he wasnt quite the megalomaniac incompetent that was Mao, but not sure he'd pass muster in the "knights of the free market" corner...

Just saying. :)

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Dan


Deng was a solid communist when he studied in France and is Russia, but may have had a Road to Damascus economic conversion when visiting Singapore.

As leader of China he is quoted as saying "Getting rich is glorious," which makes him sound like a barmy Ayn Rand devotee. :D

Tiananmen square? That was Deng. Economically he was more pragmatic, which has been the chinese communist party's line ever since. Is china an epitome of free markets today you think? ;)

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:45 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:

Tiananmen square? That was Deng. Economically he was more pragmatic, which has been the chinese communist party's line ever since. Is china an epitome of free markets today you think? ;)
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China does a lot of large-scale central planning. I wouldn't call it a paragon of free enterprise, but it lacks the bureaucracies and crony capitalism of the US that seem to either lavish businesses with subsidies or regulate them to death, anything but let the markets sort them out.

Certain aspects of free speech are lacking in China, but young people there seem to rejoice over the fact that individual liberty is increasing along with prosperity.

I applaud US activists like those involved in Liberty International such as Ken and Li Zhao Schoolland who spoke at the Peace Through Entrepreneurship conference in Marrakesh, Morocco, last May in an effort to bring not only the ideas of free enterprise, but also women's and gay's rights to the Muslim world.

They and others with LI have also given conferences in China, Russia, and other countries where their economic ideas are probably better received than here in the US where Bernie Sanders and socialism are the rage on campus, but their views on women's rights and other civil liberties are sometimes more problematic.

Liberty International is based in San Francisco www.liberty-intl.org

BTW, I'm happy about the advances in individual liberty that the Obama administration made, allowing gays in the military, gay marriage, and now more states with legalized marihuana after this past election.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:39 am

Gawdzilla Sama confessed:
I killed a lot of people.

Flash:
Look, nobody is interested but good for you and now don't forget to take your happy pill... or two or three. ;)

Mr Angry:
Suddenly you think I care if you even notice my posts? Why is that?

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:49 am

Deadpan posts get deadpan replies.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:21 am

Tom Palven wrote:China does a lot of large-scale central planning. I wouldn't call it a paragon of free enterprise, but it lacks the bureaucracies and crony capitalism of the US that seem to either lavish businesses with subsidies or regulate them to death, anything but let the markets sort them out.
.

Are you really going to claim that? Corruption and cronyism is rampant in the chinese system and the government continually supports the most important businesses with whatever means necessary. There's a reason they make a big show of tackling corruption these days (but mostly sacrificing various small fish or political rivals).

China has the crony capitalism, just not anything resembling democratic institutions and the press being mostly quiet about it.

The US isn't always the worst you know.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:47 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:The US isn't always the worst you know.
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Economically you're right. The US government may be $20 trillion in debt, but then there's also Greece, Zimbabwe, and other countries.

But when it comes to militarism, slaughter, and destruction, wouldn't you say that the US government is tops?
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:24 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:The US isn't always the worst you know.
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Economically you're right. The US government may be $20 trillion in debt, but then there's also Greece, Zimbabwe, and other countries.

But when it comes to militarism, slaughter, and destruction, wouldn't you say that the US government is tops?

Not really. Worse than many, granted, but there are worse countries in that respect. Americans should get over themselves sometimes... ;)

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:30 pm

Tom Palven:
But when it comes to militarism, slaughter, and destruction, wouldn't you say that the US government is tops?


OutofBreath:
Not really. Worse than many, granted, but there are worse countries in that respect.


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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:10 pm

Flash wrote:Servile Scandinavians! You've got your heads so deep up the ass of the Empire you don't know what {!#%@} planet you are on.

We undoubtedly prefer the empire(s) to our west, if only as a foil against the one on our eastern border.

Besides, those arguing how the us is "the worst" cannot have taken roughly half of africa and large tracts of asia into consideration when it comes to militaristic, oppressive and/or murderous regimes. Importing american movies and coca cola seems less bad when put like that...

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:02 am

OutofBreath wrote:
We undoubtedly prefer the empire(s) to our west, if only as a foil against the one on our eastern border.

Yes, Russophobia is very fashionable in Scandinavia. Have the Russians ever invaded Norway or Sweden or Denmark? No? But your great German friends did, didn't they?

Besides, those arguing how the us is "the worst" cannot have taken roughly half of africa and large tracts of asia into consideration when it comes to militaristic, oppressive and/or murderous regimes. Importing american movies and coca cola seems less bad when put like that...

Again, who do you think supports and arms those oppressive and murderous regimes in the Middle East, Asia, Africa, etc? Yes, who {!#%@} Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and now arms the islamic terrorists in Syria? Who supports Sisi in Egypt, the Saudis and other assorted head chopping sheikhs, the regimes in Algeria and Morocco and Israeli oppression of the Palestinians?

But you wouldn't know anything about it because you are just too busy watching Hollywood movies, drinking coca cola and brownnosing the Evil Empire.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gord » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:56 am

Flash wrote:OutofBreath wrote:
We undoubtedly prefer the empire(s) to our west, if only as a foil against the one on our eastern border.

Yes, Russophobia is very fashionable in Scandinavia. Have the Russians ever invaded Norway or Sweden or Denmark? No?

Actually, yes. The Finnish War was fought between the Kingdom of Sweden and the Russian Empire from February 1808 to September 1809. Without first declaring war, Russian troops under Friedrich Wilhelm von Buxhoevden crossed the border into Finland, which was a part of Sweden at the time.

Denmark also went to war against Sweden at the same time. The Danes held Norway as well, so they threatened Sweden on its western and southern borders. And yet only a few minor skirmishes were fought between Danish and Swedish forces, mostly in raids from Norway, because Britain entered the war on Sweden's side and the British navy threatened any possible troop movements from Denmark to Sweden. And then all of them -- Britain, Russia, Denmark, and Sweden -- joined together to fight Napoleon. Because, y'know...Napoleon was the Antichrist, or something.

When the war ended, Sweden ceded control of Finland to Russia, and Denmark ceded control of Norway to Sweden. Of course, neither of those countries retains control of their acquired territory today: Finland declared its independence from Russia in 1917 after the October Revolution, and Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:37 pm

Gord wrote:Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).


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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:21 pm

Gord wrote:Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).
The first kings didn't have any royal blood. :lol:
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:29 am

I googled "Russo-Swedish" wars and got a mass of material describing almost a constant warfare around the Baltic Sea starting with the age of the Vikings. Poland, the Teutonic knights (which later became a some kind of protestant principality), Lithuania, Estonia, Russia, Sweden with it's two appendices Finland and Norway, Denmark and even England, the Dutch, the Prussians, Hungarians and even Austrians were mixed in all of that.

War, war, war...come winter the Baltic sea used to freeze, no war. Everybody took a break till spring. Although that was not always true. Some wars were fought in the winter too.

What a busy bunch of people trying to annihilate one another,. Nothing has really changed since then.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gord » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:30 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).

The first kings didn't have any royal blood. :lol:

They were descended from gods!! :shakefist:
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:48 am

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).

The first kings didn't have any royal blood. :lol:

They were descended from Gords!! :shakefist:
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gord » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:49 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).

The first kings didn't have any royal blood. :lol:

They were descended from gourds!! :shakefist:
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:05 am

Flash wrote:OutofBreath wrote:
We undoubtedly prefer the empire(s) to our west, if only as a foil against the one on our eastern border.

Yes, Russophobia is very fashionable in Scandinavia. Have the Russians ever invaded Norway or Sweden or Denmark? No? But your great German friends did, didn't they?

As Gord noted, Russia had multiple wars With Sweden/Finland in the 17-1800s ending in Russia building and controlling St Petersburg on conquered lands. There was the "winter war" during ww2 when Russia tried to take Finland again, which is why Finland ended up an ally of Nazi Germany. Sweden have had an affinity towards the Baltic countries for historic reasons, which Russia subjugated up until 1990. And of course, the Cold war wasn't fake you know. As for Norway, that the Russians withdrew from Northern Norway was probably a bit of luck as Stalin at that moment wanted to appear accomodating to the other allies (you know, while afterwards grabbing Eastern Europe)

But more importantly, I think, is that the Scandinavians are germanic peoples. Which means an affinity towards Germany and Britain. Norway in the west have always traded exensively with and have close cultural bonds with both. Denmark is basically half-german anyway. Sweden have the memories of their own Baltic empire and have affinities with the Baltics and Finland particularly. Russia is a very foreign culture for Scandinavians. And of course the communist expansionist century didnt help relations (Again, the Cold war was a real thing).

Again, who do you think supports and arms those oppressive and murderous regimes in the Middle East, Asia, Africa, etc? Yes, who {!#%@} Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and now arms the islamic terrorists in Syria? Who supports Sisi in Egypt, the Saudis and other assorted head chopping sheikhs, the regimes in Algeria and Morocco and Israeli oppression of the Palestinians?

But you wouldn't know anything about it because you are just too busy watching Hollywood movies, drinking coca cola and brownnosing the Evil Empire.

Did I say that America/Britain/NATO etc never act wrong? No.
I just said that it is by no stretch of the imagination "the worst". US is the top dog controlling the trade lanes, just as the Brits did in the 19th Century. That means they'll be embroiled in faraway conflicts continously. But it must be noted that although the US most times have an interest in conflict zones, doesn't mean it creates those conflicts in the first place. You might say they don't help, which would be true. But the US isnt the only player around, so there's blame to go around for stuff like Syria/Middle East/Israel etc. The US owns Iraq though. Although it's not unlikely that Iraq would have collapsed into it's current state, or more resembling Syria eventually. States held together purely by the brute force of a strongman tend to collapse viciously at some point if the man dies, or lose control (Libya, Syria, Yugoslavia, probably Egypt at some point)

The original thin from Tom was about Militarism, slaughter and destruction. The US isn't that militaristic a country (I dont say it is UNmilitaristic, but look around and you'll find loads of countries much worse with that). It is responsible for some "slaughter" of course, but anything the US has done since 'nam fades in comparison to the real {!#%@} of moden times (Congo Wars, Rwanda for instance). Iraq is the real exception to that. As for destruction, the US has the highest potential for it, and exports weapons to everyone, I agree. Still they use it more judiciously than say the government of Sudan.

So, not the worst. Far from the best either, mind you. But sometimes it bears remembering that there are many bad bad places in the world. And that's not always the US' fault.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:17 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:Norway separated from Sweden in 1905 (and elected themselves a king -- a Danish prince named Carl, because no one in Norway could prove they had any royal blood in them).


Blood types weren't classified until 1907, but the ingredient that makes people like King Salman of Saudi Arabia really special still remains elusive.

The thing isn't about blood. Norway wanted to have a constitutional king as a figurehead, so we asked a Danish royal if he'd take it. That element maybe had a bit of "{!#%@} you Sweden" in it, as Norway was breaking away from them. Also Norway had Danish kings for 500 years until Denmark's siding with Napoleon lost them the country. More importantly, this Danish royal had married a British royal. So this was a toofer. We got closer relations to Denmark to outweigh the swedes, and we got a tie to Britain which for us is an important country to be friendly with (The British embargos in the napoleonic wars were devastating for Norway).

Blue blood doesnt really play into it, it's all diplomatic tactics and realpolitik. Oh and Norwegians like the idea of an unpolitical head of state. The Royals have always made a point of being Down-to-Earth, and the king's conduct during ww2 really cemented that. Even if we were to have a president instead, it would probably be like the president of Germany. Anyone know his name? No, because it's the prime minister that calls the shots. Me, I'm principally for a Republic, but practically, think it's alright the way it is.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:21 am

Flash wrote:I googled "Russo-Swedish" wars and got a mass of material describing almost a constant warfare around the Baltic Sea starting with the age of the Vikings. Poland, the Teutonic knights (which later became a some kind of protestant principality), Lithuania, Estonia, Russia, Sweden with it's two appendices Finland and Norway, Denmark and even England, the Dutch, the Prussians, Hungarians and even Austrians were mixed in all of that.

War, war, war...come winter the Baltic sea used to freeze, no war. Everybody took a break till spring. Although that was not always true. Some wars were fought in the winter too.

What a busy bunch of people trying to annihilate one another,. Nothing has really changed since then.

If you want to see war, you see war...
You might note that most of those wars were limited and brief and often restricted to naval actions. In the meantime people traded and built inter-connected societies. But siblings will fight.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:34 am

OutofBreath wrote:
As Gord noted, Russia had multiple wars With Sweden/Finland in the 17-1800s ending in Russia building and controlling St Petersburg on conquered lands. There was the "winter war" during ww2 when Russia tried to take Finland again, which is why Finland ended up an ally of Nazi Germany. Sweden have had an affinity towards the Baltic countries for historic reasons, which Russia subjugated up until 1990.

Okay Dan, this should be made into a manual titled How to rewrite history and get away with it Finland was pro-Nazi and that's why Soviets attacked it. It was armed, equipped and supported by Hitler. It did not turn to Hitler only because the Soviets turned out not to be it's great friends.

But more importantly, I think, is that the Scandinavians are germanic peoples...

Nonsense, Finns are not Germanic, in fact their language is not even Indo-European.

Denmark is basically half-german anyway.

:mrgreen: This is funny. I don't think the Danes would like what you said here.

Sweden have the memories of their own Baltic empire and have affinities with the Baltics and Finland particularly. Russia is a very foreign culture for Scandinavians.

Ohhh! Sweden has affinities with the Baltics and Finland? Maybe because they used like...you know a brutal army to conquer and subdue those territories. You make it sound as if the Swedish empire was one big brotherly love in, interrupted by those wild people from the East the Russians.

If you want to see war, you see war...
You might note that most of those wars were limited and brief and often restricted to naval actions. In the meantime people traded and built inter-connected societies. But siblings will fight.

Oh, so that's how it works. If I look, there is war. If I don't look, there isn't. {!#%@}! I've been looking at Afghanistan for the last fifteen years...Why didn't you tell me earlier? Look what I've done.

You are talking nonsense again dear Dan. There was almost a perpetual war around the Baltic and in Russia since the sixteenth century. And most of the time the Danes were allied with the Russians against the Swedes. One of the Swedish kings managed to get himself shot through the head during the battle and killed. Nice siblings.

And was it the Swedish king Charles XII who invaded Russia and ended up fighting in what today is Ukraine? And then after losing his pants at the battle of Poltava had to escape to Istanbul? The local brotherly disagreements they were...those wars, eh Dan? :mrgreen:
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:48 am

Flash wrote:Okay Dan, this should be made into a manual titled How to rewrite history and get away with it Finland was pro-Nazi and that's why Soviets attacked it. It was armed, equipped and supported by Hitler. It did not turn to Hitler only because the Soviets turned out not to be it's great friends.

...and since Finland used to be part of Sweden in its many wars with Russia, and they knew that Russia wanted a bigger buffer around St Petersburg, where'd you think they'd align as an independent nation? Of course they catered to the germans and took all the military equipment they could from them. So yes, they'd align early with a fellow enemy of Russia, no surprise. (Also note that quite a few Norwegians enlisted for the Winter war helping the Finns, as to alignment and culture.)

Nonsense, Finns are not Germanic, in fact their language is not even Indo-European.

Finns are the odd ones out, but the country has a big minority of swedish speakers, and swedish is an official language equal with Finnish. Ever since their independence, they've been part of the Scandinavian "club".

Denmark is basically half-german anyway.

:mrgreen: This is funny. I don't think the Danes would like what you said here.

But it's true, particularly in the south parts of Denmark.

Ohhh! Sweden has affinities with the Baltics and Finland? Maybe because they used like...you know a brutal army to conquer and subdue those territories. You make it sound as if the Swedish empire was one big brotherly love in, interrupted by those wild people from the East the Russians.

Indeed, they had an empire for centuries which makes for cultural affinities that remain long after the military part of it is gone. Think of how Britain attracts many people from it's former empire, and have generally good relations with them and continue to operate a Commonwealth. It's a thing.

If you want to see war, you see war...
You might note that most of those wars were limited and brief and often restricted to naval actions. In the meantime people traded and built inter-connected societies. But siblings will fight.

Oh, so that's how it works. If I look, there is war. If I don't look, there isn't. {!#%@}! I've been looking at Afghanistan for the last fifteen years...Why didn't you tell me earlier? Look what I've done.

You are talking nonsense again dear Dan. There was almost a perpetual war around the Baltic and in Russia since the sixteenth century. And most of the time the Danes were allied with the Russians against the Swedes. One of the Swedish kings managed to get himself shot through the head during the battle and killed. Nice siblings.

And was it the Swedish king Charles XII who invaded Russia and ended up fighting in what today is Ukraine? And then after losing his pants at the battle of Poltava had to escape to Istanbul? The local brotherly disagreements they were...those wars, eh Dan? :mrgreen:
[/QUOTE]
Missing my point, I see. I didn't say that there weren't wars, conflicts and all the periphernalia of human power struggles. But that's just on the military/high politics level, while most people in the area lived their lives. The cities along the Baltic have ancient trading ties with eachother, and generally a germanic culture and for the most part, ethnicity. (Pre WW2 at least, before ethnic germans were ethnically cleansed from large parts of the region) Numerous wars of course, for the supremacy within that trading block, and from the 1700s onwards added with the Russian expansion and desire for coastlines. (Which is why Russia had not-so-great relations with most of the other countries around there.)

If you only look at wars and military maneuvers, the big important bits of history will pass you by, Flash.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:14 am

OutOfBreath wrote: The cities along the Baltic have ancient trading ties with eachother, and generally a germanic culture and for the most part, ethnicity.
Absolutely. St Petersburg is a germanic city. Catherine the Great imported all the Germans to modernise Russia.

We are also trying to apply "one logic" to large areas that converted from trading Hanseatic city states to nations with borders, over that period, so there's never going to be a right view.

St Petersburg was originally a Swedish fort, existing way into Swedish territory on the far side of the Neva.

st-peter-and-paul-fortress.jpg
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:38 am

Well, Catherine the Great was German and she did great things for Russia. There was a black and white film called Catherine the Great made by Hollywood. I remember watching it on the TLC channel.

Incidentally, at one time my wife and I traveled to Poland and found ourselves walking on the street in Oliwa, a suburb of Gdansk, when we encountered a bronze plaque on a wall of a house. It said that the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer was born and lived in that house. Cool, eh?
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby OutOfBreath » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:31 am

Cool indeed. Modern Poland is a weitd construct as Soviet moved the entire country westwards. So large areas that had been german for centuries were given to Poland to compensate for the eastern parts of the country being ceded to Belarus and Ukraine. Large population transfers took place.

Snyder notes in his book "bloodlands" the exquisite irony of the soviet victory (supposedly internationalist and cosmopolitan) bringing about ethnically pure states in it's sphere. So the ethnic homogenity of eastern european lands is the result of the post ww2 ethnic cleansing, whereas these peoples used to live among eachother.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote: The cities along the Baltic have ancient trading ties with eachother, and generally a germanic culture and for the most part, ethnicity.
Absolutely. St Petersburg is a germanic city. Catherine the Great imported all the Germans to modernise Russia.

We are also trying to apply "one logic" to large areas that converted from trading Hanseatic city states to nations with borders, over that period, so there's never going to be a right view.

St Petersburg was originally a Swedish fort, existing way into Swedish territory on the far side of the Neva.

st-peter-and-paul-fortress.jpg

One of my favorite Vauban-style forts. :D
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Flash » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:43 am

OutofBreath wrote:
Modern Poland is a weitd construct as Soviet moved the entire country westwards. So large areas that had been german for centuries were given to Poland to compensate for the eastern parts of the country being ceded to Belarus and Ukraine. Large population transfers took place.

The ethnic Germans left. There were local populations that didn't move. For example the Upper Silesia was mostly Polish and these people stayed. The Pomerania along the coast of the Baltic sea and between the river Oder and Vistula had large ethnic German population the closer one got to the city of Szczecin but going East towards Gdansk the people who called themselves Kaszebe lived. Those were (and still are) Germanized Poles who even developed their own language using Polish grammar and some German vocabulary. The unintentional result of this is that neither Poles nor Germans can understand them. They are still there with their folk centers, radio stations and TV programs.

To the East of Gdansk in the Masuria region, all rural population was either Polish or the Germanized Polish. They stayed. The city of Olsztyn where Copernicus lived was a center of Polish culture well past the last Polish partition in the eighteenth century. I remember once being shown my wife's family birth certificates from circa WWI. They were issued by their parish priests and all were written in Polish.

it's funny you know, it took Germans in their drang nach osten about a thousand years to colonize and Germanize all of these territories and then the Hitler's generation started a war and lost everything in five years. That is what you surely might call karma.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:39 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:02 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:06 am

Tom Palven wrote:China to London freight train:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ondon.html


That was very interesting.
* The train pulled in to Barking after an 18-day journey from Yiwu
* 7,500-mile journey
* It passed through China, Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Germany, Belgium and France


It would seen China is getting ready for a potential trade war with the USA, by working on its alternative markets.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Poodle » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:40 am

Don't concern yourself about that. The UK rail unions will soon have the route regulated to death.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:33 am

[quote="Poodle"]Don't concern yourself about that. The UK rail unions will soon have the route regulated to death.[/quote

I see the expansion of trade as promoting peace and prosperity.

During South Korea's attempted implementation of a "Sunshine Policy," North and South Korea began cooperative de-mining efforts to enable the creation of a Seoul to Moscow railway through China. The Chairman of Hyundai Motors at the time blamed the US for blocking those efforts.

Bloody typical.
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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:38 pm

Poodle wrote:Don't concern yourself about that. The UK rail unions will soon have the route regulated to death.
Actually, its the various rail gauges (width) that I need to check. It simply can't be the same train that left China. (Let me check that first) :D

During WWII the Germans and Russians used different rail gauges. As you can imagine this caused everything to be unloaded and loaded up again in the middle of nowhere, when the Germans invaded Russia,,,,,,,,and when the Russians moved the battle back to Germany.

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Re: One Decade- 1968-1978

Postby Poodle » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:43 pm

Yep - at least two changes. God knows how many drivers.


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