August 1, 2016

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Tom Palven
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August 1, 2016

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:32 pm

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:31 pm

In a vacuum, on balance, from the link alone: a "good" thing...as much as any kinetic response can be?
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Gord » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:34 am

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 07056.html

On August 1, the United States began a new military air campaign against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, also known as ISIS) in its stronghold of Sirte in Libya. This has come as an unsurprising move.

The bombing was in response to the request of the Government of National Accord (GNA), whose Prime Minister Fayez al-Sarraj had previously said Libya did not need foreign intervention.

In fact, for many this is exactly the expected scenario: the GNA - set up by the United Nations and wanted by the West - is turning out to be, among other things, an instrument to legitimise military strikes against jihadist groups....
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:24 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:In a vacuum, on balance, from the link alone: a "good" thing...as much as any kinetic response can be?


August 5, 2016. Another good thing?
http://news.antiwar.com/2016/08/05/more ... ear-mosul/

Can you connect any dots with these good things? See any kind of pattern?

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut, but do you think that these are just random acts of kindness by the US Imperial Military-Industrial -Congressional Complex?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:55 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Can you connect any dots with these good things? See any kind of pattern?
I see what you thumb's up'ed from Gord: an anti-ISIS limited Military response. What is the alternative?==>let ISIS and any other military groups take over land and subjugate previously free/more free people?


Tom Palven wrote:I don't want to sound like a conspiracy nut, but do you think that these are just random acts of kindness by the US Imperial Military-Industrial -Congressional Complex?
Where's the conspiracy? Not seeing one myself, yes, absent explanation does put you on the nutter side of things....which you support by characterizing the action as acts of kindness? That goes from nutter to stupid. WAR ... is not kind. We can only hope it forces a better future and avoids a worse outcome....not that difficult to deal with.

............... or ................. do you think ISIS should be allowed if not encouraged to expand and occupy as it may have the power to do?
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:18 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Can you connect any dots with these good things? See any kind of pattern?
What is the alternative?==>let ISIS and any other military groups take over land and subjugate previously free/more free people?


You seem unable or unwilling to connect dots and see patterns, but in any case, in answer to your question and at the risk of repeating myself, I think that the US should bring all its troops and equipment home and, as Ron Paul has long advocated, leave the Mid-East for the Mid-Easterners to sort out.

Before the US turns more of the Mid-East into rubble, allow McDonalds and other private companies to be emissaries there, and bring the US military home. Now.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:45 pm

TP==you seem to think the merest hint or allusion to a policy citique is all you need to do to be understood? What you have posted is consistent with "bring all its troops and equipment home" but it is also consistent with 15 other positions. I named and connected dots...just not the same ones you did and I did not mislead as you did with ambiguity and false characterizations in an effort at sarcasm...which almost never comes across the intertubes.

Nobody cares what Ron Paul says...unless you want to buy gold? Is that what he is hawking these days...I never stop to listen.

I too would prefer USA staying out of the Middle East...both militarily and industrially. Maybe attack ISIS in Libya to test new equipment...there's a dot for you. USA is now in the habit of using WAR as a first response and with the Middle East...I think mostly what we have is the USA Presidential Habit of not wanting to admit to losing a War. And why should they? Not their money or family members getting wasted.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby gorgeous » Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:30 pm

Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby gorgeous » Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:38 pm

nuclear explosion? ...Obama will appear on t.v. and reassure the public, not telling the truth..^^^^^recorded July 16, 2016-----------lots of brown skinned people seen , whites also, lots of accents....could be at the Olympics...
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TP==you seem to think the merest hint or allusion to a policy citique is all you need to do to be understood?

I too would prefer USA staying out of the Middle East...both militarily and industrially. Maybe attack ISIS in Libya to test new equipment...there's a dot for you.


Are you serious about testing military equipment on Libyans? Will that kind of talk make US troops more popular over there?

Here are the dots, plain and simple. Can you argue with the facts presented:

Muslims were fighting among themselves in the Mid-East and not bothering anyone in the West until:

1. The US helped orchestrate the overthrow of the only Muslim democracy in the Mid-East in Iran in 1953.

2. The US stationed troops in Islam's holiest country, Saudi Arabia.

3. The US tacitly aided Likudnik expansionism and the disenfranchisement of native Palestinians with billions of dollars of humanitarian and military aid to Israel.

And right now the war in the Mid-East is similar to the war on drugs with its expansion and militarization of the police causing blowback against the police. And many say that the answer to this problem is? You got it. More police and more militarization. A police state! Yeah, that's the ticket!

And the prescription for the problems in the Mid-East caused by US intervention is, of course,...increased harsher intervention.

If I stipulate that my comments range from "nutter to stupid" will you just address the facts?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:01 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TP==I too would prefer USA staying out of the Middle East...both militarily and industrially.


Are you serious about testing military equipment on Libyans? /// Well...I'd rather they test such things on ISIS than on San Francisco.

Will that kind of talk make US troops more popular over there? /// Talk?

Here are the dots, plain and simple. Can you argue with the facts presented: /// Only as warranted.

Muslims were fighting among themselves in the Mid-East and not bothering anyone in the West until:

1. The US helped orchestrate the overthrow of the only Muslim democracy in the Mid-East in Iran in 1953. /// Gee...the History of Muslim/Arab/The West has been mostly one of conflict since the birth of the religion. What got Israel planted in Palestine was the ottomans fighting for the Axis. That was kinda a bother...... Now--1953, all about securing oil rights as I recall. Yep..."not a kind thing to do"...I include stealing our oil under their sand as part of the "no industrial activities" in the Middle East. Pros and Cons to all we do.

2. The US stationed troops in Islam's holiest country, Saudi Arabia. /// Yep, just as holy as a camel turd....all things being equal in Allah's Eyes...but maybe only in Yaweh's? So...US Troops in Saudi...ONLY on the invitation on the recognized gubment. Whats wrong with that exactly???

3. The US tacitly aided Likudnik expansionism and the disenfranchisement of native Palestinians with billions of dollars of humanitarian and military aid to Israel. /// Yep...reason enough to piss off anyone with an interest. Thats how life works. Teach those desert tribes not to run guns and intel for those dirty Nazis.

And right now the war in the Mid-East is similar to the war on drugs with its expansion and militarization of the police causing blowback against the police. And many say that the answer to this problem is? You got it. More police and more militarization. A police state! Yeah, that's the ticket! /// Why make it similar to the war on drugs when it is an outright war? You pick a debateable analogy over the simple fact of the matter. Bad form.

And the prescription for the problems in the Mid-East caused by US intervention is, of course,...increased harsher intervention. /// Well....I said we should leave? Especially now as we don't "need" their oil. The pacific rim might need their oil and disruptions to "world economy" could easily occur. I say: that risk is worth it. Lets not bleed outselves for so little if any return.

If I stipulate that my comments range from "nutter to stupid" will you just address the facts? /// Happy to have done it.... regardless.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:54 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I too would prefer USA staying out of the Middle East...both militarily and industrially.


Thank you. I'm glad that we agree on this.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:10 am

Obama's continued battles will go down in history as the advent of robotic warfare: there are a hundred different kinds of robotic machines in use on the ground, air and sea in the region.
While many people say that trying to stay at the top of the drone game is futile, given how cheap they are.
But only the US is collecting combat experience on a large scale with them.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:24 pm

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:30 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Obama's continued battles will go down in history as the advent of robotic warfare: there are a hundred different kinds of robotic machines in use on the ground, air and sea in the region.
While many people say that trying to stay at the top of the drone game is futile, given how cheap they are.
But only the US is collecting combat experience on a large scale with them.

Drones were going to be used whomever was in office.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:35 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drones were going to be used whomever was in office.


no doubt.

But for the history books, it was the black Muslim guy from Kenya who really got the ball rolling.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: August 1, 2016

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:58 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Drones were going to be used whomever was in office.


no doubt.

But for the history books, it was the black Muslim guy from Kenya who really got the ball rolling.

Depend on who writes the history and when they have access to certain data.
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