Letter about ISIS

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Tom Palven
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Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:13 pm

Michael Reagan has an article in the Florida-Times-Union, today, in which he calls for an all-out bombing of ISIS, "which includes men, women, and children if they don't get out of the way."

I just sent this letter in response:

Dear Editor,

In response to today's Michael Reagan column The US must lead in destroying ISIS:

ISIS, al-Qaeda, al-nusra, Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, and other Mid-Eastern rebels are not conventional organized armies run by governments, and like the Viet Cong who had no air force, are not easily destroyed by conventional forces, if they can be destroyed at all.

Support for those groups may indicate that many Mid-Easterners no longer want to be ruled by Western lap-dog dictators and kings, and the idea that their lives might be better without the intervention of Western governments.

Before spending billions of more US taxpayer dollars and the lives of more US soldiers, it might be well to remember Victor Hugo's opinion that "Even armies cannot stop an idea whose time has come."

Tom Palven
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:51 pm

I'd like to read the piece...does not google for me. Get the Newspaper but not the piece.

TP--I think you are being too clever and thereby missing your target. In fact...you've given about the only reason I can think of to Nuke them all. The notion that ideas have a life/force beyond those who carry the idea....is just twaddle.

Course....the USA doesn't have the back bone to levy such cleansing destruction...any half-assed activity on our part would indeed fail creating more misery for all and a seeming win for the idea. But it would not be. Just a poorly executed contrarian idea. USA has a track record for that.
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I'd like to read the piece...does not google for me. Get the Newspaper but not the piece.


This is the exact article that is on the op-ed page of today's Florida Times-Union (Jacksonville).
https://patriotpost.us/opinion/43552
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:16 pm

Thanks.

Well.........that is a disgusting short sighted highly irrational rant.

What to do when all the options are bad? I see Munich is under attack by 3 gun men right now....probably ISIS...but could be the Green Party reactivated.

Well...for a start, I think we need to stop buying oil from the House of Saud and its open support for Wahabi Sharia Spreading extremist religionists.

In the main...I'd say fight fire with fire. Support the counter clerics. Support some counter Muslim hit squads to go after the wrong thinking Imams.

Simple fact is, the military is the wrong tool against bad ideas.
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:29 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Simple fact is, the military is the wrong tool against bad ideas.


I agree that Islam is a bad, even a ridiculous idea, but so are Christianity and Judaism ridiculous ideas; and the worst idea of all might be a belief in the blessings of foreign occupation.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:35 am

Tom Palven wrote:I agree that Islam is a bad, even a ridiculous idea, but so are Christianity and Judaism ridiculous ideas
Mostly irrelvant. True....but irrelevant. The bad idea in Islam that counts is Sharia Law and the imposition of it on all others. Christianity and Judaism have no such culture clashing ideas.

Tom Palven wrote: and the worst idea of all might be a belief in the blessings of foreign occupation.
Indeed. Good thing no body at all believes that. Prove me wrong? Well.....those being protected by a foreign occupier certainly receive such blessings.... you must mean something else?
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: and the worst idea of all might be a belief in the blessings of foreign occupation.
Indeed. Good thing no body at all believes that. Prove me wrong? Well.....those being protected by a foreign occupier certainly receive such blessings.... you must mean something else?


You're right. Nobody really believes anymore that colonialism is the "white man's burden" or the newer fiction that Western powers are in the Mid-East to promote democracy. As Mikhail Gorbachev said, the US Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex needs an enemy, and anyone who can't see that by now has their head in the sand.

And so the US escalation will continue.

But, the Arab Spring train has left the station. Freedom and Justice in the Mid-East as espoused by Mohammed Morsi's Freedom and Justice Party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Morsi
are ideas whose time has come, and perhaps the most appropriate cliché, imho, is that the genie is out of the bottle.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:38 am

Thanks Tom....good to see some flexibility in view of contradiction. Hope I can do the same........I want to.

But...........and you tell me if I'm wrong: given the Arab Spring died a few years ago...is anything Morsi has said relevant? The Arab Spring confronting militarys loyal to their tyrants and captured by militant fundies of various Muslim sects? I think so.

Ideas are strong. Militarys are Strong. One will not automatically win over the other. All those swirling knowns and unknowns get added to the mix.
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks Tom....good to see some flexibility in view of contradiction. Hope I can do the same........I want to.

But...........and you tell me if I'm wrong: given the Arab Spring died a few years ago...is anything Morsi has said relevant?


Mark Twain said that the report of his death was an exaggeration, and so too, I think, with the death of the Arab Spring.

If the Arab Spring movement is over, why is the US increasing troop levels in Iraq and Afghanistan, increasing the bombing of Libya and Syria, and supporting the Saudi Arabian bombing of Yemen?

George Bush said that he authorized the Shock and Awe bombing of Iraq "in order to keep the peace." Is it peaceful over there now?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:37 pm

Tom Palven wrote:If the Arab Spring movement is over, why is the US increasing troop levels in Iraq and Afghanistan, increasing the bombing of Libya and Syria, and supporting the Saudi Arabian bombing of Yemen?
BECAUSE THE ARAB SPRING MOVEMENT HAS DIED. Jebus....The Arab Spring: the uprising of Arab People of all faiths against their tyrannical leaders. they have now all either directly failed on their own, or succeeded and got taken over by Fundie religious groups. No exceptions. THATS the very reason the justification/need/opportunity arises for USA/Nato troops to go in.

Tom Palven wrote:George Bush said that he authorized the Shock and Awe bombing of Iraq "in order to keep the peace." Is it peaceful over there now?
What does this have to do with anything? .... Hah...looks like another indicator of the failure of the Arab Spring.

You got something ....... backwards?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:14 pm

The Times-Union ran my OP letter today, with just a tiny bit of editing that makes it more readable.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:21 pm

Don't be embarrassed to keep a scrapbook......ie: not a computer file.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:56 pm

Here's the slightly edited version.

They titled it WAR ON ISIS Guns and Tanks Won't Win It:

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters ... s-schools#
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:33 am

Coincidentally, a Mid-East/Vietnam analogy dated yesterday:
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/24/a ... s-vietnam/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Letter about ISIS

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:43 am

Yeah.... nice thing about war. If Obama's kiddies were in it....we wouldn't be in it. Like most policies of our Overlords...its what is good for us while they ride above it all...... because they care so much.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


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