How to deal with slavery apologetics?

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How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby ryu289 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:28 am

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2012/0 ... tive-good/
1) In slave societies, negroes were a wealth generating economic asset: America’s slaves were worth more than its railroads, banks, and manufacturing industries combined.

In 1861, the average slave was worth $800. In 2009 dollars, a single slave purchased in 1861 would be an asset worth $135,000.

(2) In 1860, 49.8 percent of the population of Barbour County (AL) were slaves.

(3) In 1860, there were 2,717 free families in Barbour County (AL). There were 1,143 slaveholders. 42.1 percent of free families were slaveholders.

(4) In the Lower Chattahoochee Valley as a whole, there were 47 slaveholders who owned over 100 slaves. If the average slave was an asset worth $135,000, then each one of these super planters in 1860 had a fortune in slaves alone worth a minimum of $13.5 million dollars.

(5) In the Lower Chattahoochee Valley, there were 270 slaveowners who owned 50 to 100 slaves. If the average slave was worth $135,000, then each one of these middling planters had a fortune in slaves alone worth a minimum of $6.7 million dollars.

(6) In the Lower Chattahoochee Valley, there were 1,193 slaveowners who owned 20 to 50 slaves. If the average slave was worth $135,000, then these lower tier planters had a fortune in slaves alone worth a minimum of $2.7 million dollars.

Obviously, the planter class in the Lower Chattahoochee Valley was stupendously wealthy by modern standards – those numbers don’t include their non-slave property or investments and are based on the minimum number of slaves required to belong to each tier.

In 1860, there were 1,150 planters in the Lower Chattahoochee Valley. The planters were only 17.3 percent of slaveholders though. How’s that compared to the stock market?

(7) In the Lower Chattahoochee Valley, there were 1,637 slaveowners who owned 10 to 19 slaves. If the average slave was worth $135,000, then these upper middle class slaveowners had a fortune in slaves alone worth $1.35 million dollars.

(8) In the Lower Chattahoochee Valley, there were 1,485 slaveowners who owned 6 to 9 slaves. If the average slave was worth $135,000, then the typical middle class slaveowner had a fortune worth $810,000.

(9) In the Lower Chattahoochee Valley, there were 4,100 slaveowners who owned 1 to 5 slaves. 47 percent of slaveowners in the Lower Chattahoochee Valley belonged to this group. Every one of these slaveowners had at least one slave worth $135,000.

(10) In Barbour County (AL), 42.1 percent of free families were slaveowners – surely, the great majority of them were middle class slaveowners, while only a small minority were planters.

How much is the average negro household worth after 147 years of free society? The average negro household is worth $4,995.


How does one respond to this?

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:46 am

Negroes in the USA are still getting hosed?
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:18 am

ryu289 wrote: How does one respond to this?
One doesn't. One ignores your posts. You are simply driving traffic to extremist websites and pretending to be "just asking questions?". That is your only intention.

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2012/0 ... tive-good/
You link goes to Occidental Dissident : Pro-white Website.

Propaganda Piece :"Slavery: A Positive Good (2012)"

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:59 am

"The Subject" could be interesting. I am more and more amused at white folks who claim there is no such thing as White Privilege. Their proof is they have never taken advantage of their white skin...... they never even think about it.

Yuk, Yuk.
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"The Subject" could be interesting. I am more and more amused at white folks who claim there is no such thing as White Privilege. Their proof is they have never taken advantage of their white skin...... they never even think about it.


It's not just white privilege. England still had class structure in the 70's. Most countries did. I know it's a complex big picture but the general aim is to remove all self perceived "entitlement" for everyone.

As for the pro-slavery propaganda piece, it was complete nonsense. Slaves were not only traded but born into slavery. The economics is more like accounting for livestock. Also, at no point did RYU238 think for himself, that African Americans may not to return to being slaves, which I think is pretty revealing about his mindset.

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Monster » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:26 am

ryu289 wrote:How does one respond to this?

Ignore it.
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:00 pm

Matt, I will quibble.

Nothing wrong with feeling entitled, its what FREEEEEEEEEDOM is all about. so...the real issue is WHAT you feel entitled to. The issue of White Privilege as referenced isn't about what anyone feels entitled to but rather the circumstances you are born into whether you recognize them, feel, or take advantage of.

The notion of Class Privilege is very much the same but requires a more active participation. EG--paying more money for balcony seating. A person may not think they are engaging in class Privilege when they go/pay FIRST CLASS, but they are and the payment of extra money cannot be denied.

I don't know what distinction you are thinking of by "England of the 70's" as all societies have class structures with various attributes. As I assume you know this, I won't give further detail. Did England recently abolish the House of Lords?

To Monster: White Privilege which is one characteristic or consequence of the OP should not be ignored. In a complicated interactive way, White Privilege and Class Privilege interact in america to produce Wealth Inequality that hurts everyone in society: (white, black, and all others including the Rich and the Poor.

Its all definitional. But all we have to do is JUST LOOK.
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:52 pm

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby ryu289 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:06 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
ryu289 wrote: How does one respond to this?
One doesn't. One ignores your posts. You are simply driving traffic to extremist websites and pretending to be "just asking questions?". That is your only intention.

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2012/0 ... tive-good/
You link goes to Occidental Dissident : Pro-white Website.

Propaganda Piece :"Slavery: A Positive Good (2012)"

I am trying ton debunk this and asking for help. Sometimes Matt I think you are too cynical.

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:06 pm

ryu289 wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
ryu289 wrote: How does one respond to this?
One doesn't. One ignores your posts. You are simply driving traffic to extremist websites and pretending to be "just asking questions?". That is your only intention.

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2012/0 ... tive-good/
You link goes to Occidental Dissident : Pro-white Website.

Propaganda Piece :"Slavery: A Positive Good (2012)"

I am trying ton debunk this and asking for help. Sometimes Matt I think you are too cynical.



What is there to debunk? People are not worth anything today, since they can not be traded - so whatever value they once had is now zero. Whatever calculations you make, you can not put humans as commodities into them. If you do that, you can also talk about how clever it was for the Aztecs to manage population by cutting people's hearts out.
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Monster » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:42 pm

ryu289 wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
ryu289 wrote: How does one respond to this?
One doesn't. One ignores your posts. You are simply driving traffic to extremist websites and pretending to be "just asking questions?". That is your only intention.

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2012/0 ... tive-good/
You link goes to Occidental Dissident : Pro-white Website.

Propaganda Piece :"Slavery: A Positive Good (2012)"

I am trying ton debunk this and asking for help. Sometimes Matt I think you are too cynical.

Are you trying to debunk this to write on the occidentaldissent site? You can easily just write "Imagine that you were the slave. Is this still positive?"
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:10 am

ryu289 wrote: I am trying ton debunk this and asking for help. Sometimes Matt I think you are too cynical.

There is nothing to debunk.
1) Slaves are born into slavery. This was not mentioned in their "financial calculations."
2) African Americans do not want to return to slavery because a member of the KKK thinks it is a good idea.
3) You simply want to link extremist sites here and "just ask questions"

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:25 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt, I will quibble.

Nothing wrong with feeling entitled, its what FREEEEEEEEEDOM is all about.
as soon as this freedom comes at a cost to others, then it is no longer a right.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I don't know what distinction you are thinking of by "England of the 70's" as all societies have class structures with various attributes.
My family lived in a communist state in India, called Kerala. It was using education to defeat the Indian caste system. I then go to London on my own in the late 70's and see yet another caste (class) system. The English broke this system with both education and humour.

The English have a whole entertainment genre based around taking the piss out of its own class structure. America and Australia can't do this because we don't have any class
:D

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Did England recently abolish the House of Lords?
Great point. A "Lord" is still a "Lord" but some of the "Lords" are not what you think. Baron Passfield was a socialist reformer. I'm never too sure what Prince Charles political views are, and he's the next king!

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:33 am

1. FREEEEEEEEEEEEDOM always comes at a cost. To gain and to secure. "The tree of liberty......" I can agree with what you post only by adding a whole bunch of words to it. FREEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM comes at a cost to those who would keep you subjugated. but yeah, I know what you mean. You likewise?

2. English Class System not what it once was, but still there. Public Education and so forth. Hell...whats the Monarchy all about?..... the part that is more than tourism??

3. I don't know the English system much at all but I thought the house of lords was still selected by inherited relationships tied back to land ownership granted by the King???

All societies have class systems of one kind or another. Most often.... based on money and who earns the most by the least effort.
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:36 am

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I don't know the English system much at all but I thought the house of lords was still selected by inherited relationships tied back to land ownership granted by the King???
No. They are dying off. Individuals are elevated to the House of Lords, by bi-partisan recommendations to the Crown.

Baroness Thatcher, is an ex-shop keeper.
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:43 am

House of Lords. Interesting. Seems to have lost its function then? Go Unicameral?
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:51 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:House of Lords. Interesting. Seems to have lost its function then? Go Unicameral?
No. It's slowly turning into an normal "upper house" under the Westminster system. We have the same system as the UK but we vote in our "senators" to the "upper house". As you can imagine the UK has a lot more history to deal with.

I'm going to get slapped around by skeptics for saying this, but the UK political system is so historically complex that any big change in the House of Lords, will potentially change the meaning of laws going back hundreds of years.

Unlike the elected House of Commons, most members of the House of Lords are appointed.[5] The membership of the House of Lords is made up of Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal. The Lords Spiritual are 26 bishops in the established Church of England.[6] Of the Lords Temporal, the majority are life peers who are appointed by the monarch on the advice of the Prime Minister, or on the advice of the House of Lords Appointments Commission. However, they also include some hereditary peers.[7] Membership was once an entitlement of all hereditary peers, other than those in the peerage of Ireland, but under the House of Lords Act 1999, the right to membership was restricted to 92 hereditary peers.[8] Very few of these are female since most hereditary peerages can only be inherited by men.[9]

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:05 am

Lord help us?

Ha, ha. I'm glad I'm not English: too much History to learn.
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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Poodle » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:25 am

The House of Lords, full of old crusties thought it is, acts as a safety brake quite often by returning proposed legislation to the House of Commons with comments pointing out errors, unforeseen effects, and all kinds of political skullduggery. The Lords cannot continue to do this for ever, but they can delay the passage of any prospective Act. The Hereditary Peers tend not to turn up except for free lunches and the opportunity to wear their girlie clothes.

The history is quite simple - the Lords were the de facto government (if the King let them be) but, slowly and surely aided by plagues, a couple of threats of revolution and a Civil War, those dreadful commoners (well, at least those rich enough to buy a seat) became top dogs by pointing out that they could simply transfer their allegiances and leave any Lord high and dry on unworked estates. There you go - six centuries in a nutshell.

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:31 am

I never knock the Lords. I was watching Nick Gowing, BBC World News hosts, standing outside the Houses of Parliament. Some elderly bloke, dressed like an unmade bed, with a dirty tie, wandered into the background. Nick Gowing turns around and said "Lord Avery, what make of all this?" Lord Avery then gave a sensible speech and waddled off, muttering to himself. :D

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Re: How to deal with slavery apologetics?

Postby Jeff_36 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:10 am

ryu289 wrote:http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2012/07/13/slavery-a-positive-good/

How does one respond to this?


The notion of "owning" a human being as one would own a car or a hockey sweater is horrific and self-refuting. "Slavery apologetics" is akin to "rape apologetics" or "incest apologetics", simply morally repellent.


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