Soviet Offensive Plans

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Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:05 pm

This has likely been covered here before but I'll give it a shot.

Many Nazi apologist and white supremacists today (also known as "revisionists") are fond of describing Operation Barbarossa as a pre-emptive strike and thus justifying the genocidal intentions the Nazis had for the USSR (see Generalplan Ost) and their brutal occupation policies.

This is obviously nonsense. Hitler had been planning for an eventual invasion of the USSR and other eastern European territories as early as the 1920's (it was a dream of his). The soviets had gotten their assed kicked in the Winter War and were clearly in no position to invade anywhere. It is likely that Stalin began to make plans for an eventual campaign against Nazi Germany (hence the amount of troops near the border), but those plans were purely hypothetical and not expected to come to fruition for another several years (which explains the lack pot combat preparedness of said troops). And even then, the plans were suggested in early 1941, when planning for Operation Barbarossa began in July 1940.

I was wondering if anyone had any info at all to refute these allegations. The fact that they are used by Neo-Nazis to justify the hideous Lebenstraum plans makes refutation critical.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:03 pm

You probably want to ask at ww2f.com. forum.axishistory.com is another one.

In both cases I'd do a search before starting a new thread, this topic comes up regularly.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:24 pm

Axishistory.com is populated by a lot of Neo-Nazis. Scott Smith, a notorious holocaust denier, is one of their more prominent members.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:12 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Many Nazi apologist and white supremacists today (also known as "revisionists") are fond of describing Operation Barbarossa as a pre-emptive strike and thus justifying the genocidal intentions the Nazis had for the USSR (see Generalplan Ost) and their brutal occupation policies.
You are now in my "field of expertise". I can talk under water on this topic.
Jeff_36 wrote:I was wondering if anyone had any info at all to refute these allegations. The fact that they are used by Neo-Nazis to justify the hideous Lebenstraum plans makes refutation critical.


The best way to do this is using rebuttals to specific denier arguments.

"The (Russian) BT-7 and BT-5 were fast attack tanks designed for invasion"
No. The BT-5 was a light tank that used American Christie suspension to be a 'fast" tank. At exactly the same time the Soviet produced the T-35, which weighed 45 metric tons and a top speed of only 30KPH. Considering the two tanks were designed to work together in a "Guards Army" this ends the argument that the BT-5 was designed to "rush into Germany".
alg35004.jpg



Secondly, Russian tanks are generally diesel. German tanks were petrol, so they could use captured civilian fuel on invasion. Where were the Russian tanks meant to get their diesel from, if the rail gauge changes between Russia and Germany?
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:16 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Axishistory.com is populated by a lot of Neo-Nazis. Scott Smith, a notorious holocaust denier, is one of their more prominent members.

If you can't separate the grain from the chaff the place definitely isn't for you.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:28 am

My fear is that a post there will draw all manner of chaff and very little grain.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:42 am

Russian trucks are another good example. Russia was supplied Studebaker 2 1/2 ton trucks by the USA to counter the Germans after Barbarossa. The existing Russian GAZ and ZILs were already copies of US vehicles, but only had single rear wheel axles, not suitable for Eastern Europe.

Considering what the Russians did to the French Grande Army after they failed to hold Moscow, (600,000 French popsicles), I doubt the Russian or Germans thought the Russian army was going to march on foot into Berlin in 1940. In fact, it was the lack of Russian mobility that allowed for the Germans sweeping encirclements in the opening of Barbarossa, because the Germans already knew this.

On the propaganda photo front, "My close Katies" ( Katyushas) are generally shown on Zis-6's. They were also placed on an enormous number of USA manufactured Studebakers.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:58 am

Jeff_36 wrote:My fear is that a post there will draw all manner of chaff and very little grain.

Ever pan for gold?

But you may want to search for your topic and then read the threads and see who's rational and PM them.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:19 am

[quote="Matthew Ellard"]Russian trucks are another good example. Russia was supplied Studebaker 2 1/2 ton trucks by the USA to counter the Germans after Barbarossa. The existing Russian GAZ and ZILs were already copies of US vehicles, but only had single rear wheel axles, not suitable for Eastern Europe.

So now you are saying that the Russians were planning an invasion? Or are you saying that the trucks they had were unsuitable for invasion?

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Russian trucks are another good example. Russia was supplied Studebaker 2 1/2 ton trucks by the USA to counter the Germans after Barbarossa. The existing Russian GAZ and ZILs were already copies of US vehicles, but only had single rear wheel axles, not suitable for Eastern Europe.
Jeff_36 wrote:So now you are saying that the Russians were planning an invasion? Or are you saying that the trucks they had were unsuitable for invasion?
I'm saying the Soviets didn't have the trucks. Lend lease to the soviet union commenced in October 1941. Barbarossa commenced on June 1941.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:06 am

Another obvious strong indicator, that the Soviet Union was not planning to attack Germany in 1940 or 1941 can be observed on the other side of Soviet Union. It's the troops preparing for an attack by Japan.

You may remember that during the battle for Moscow, that the elite winter troops were withdrawn from the East, when it became obvious that Japan was not going to attack Russia based on information from Richard Scourge. That's 18 divisions, 1,700 tanks, and over 1,500 aircraft.

Now if Russia was going to attack Germany why did it have its elite troops in the wrong side of Russia?

The particular German bastard, who knew this "soviet invasion theory" is complete crap is the bloke who ran the Wehrmacht's Fremde Heere Ost (Army Eastern intelligence), was incompetent back then and then ran West German Intelligence and lied some more: Reinhard Gehlen. He advised, that Russia had less than 10,000 obsolete tanks. It actually had over 20,000 including, the new designed T-34.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:38 am

Also: any preparations made by Stalin in 1940-41 were in of themselves counter-aggressive in nature as a response To the aggressive rhetoric of Nazis at the time.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:49 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Also: any preparations made by Stalin in 1940-41 were in of themselves counter-aggressive in nature as a response To the aggressive rhetoric of Nazis at the time.


Have you read A.J.P.Taylor's account of the Russian negotiations with the Poles before 1939? The Russians, French and Britain asked Poland, to allow Russia to enter Poland as an ally, to stop a German invasion of Poland, as this also protected France. Poland refused because the Russian Polish war had only ended in 1921

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Riga

Lovers of history would realise this war was over the Ukraine. Poland has tried to annex the Ukraine. ( People forget this history and currently think Russia is Ukraine's main enemy, which is ridiculous. Russia gave the whole Crimea to Ukraine in the 1950's to help it economically.)

Ukraine means "borderland' in Russian That's why it used to be "The Ukraine" rather than simply "Ukraine" as a separate country today.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:07 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:My fear is that a post there will draw all manner of chaff and very little grain.

Ever pan for gold?

But you may want to search for your topic and then read the threads and see who's rational and PM them.

See? Told ya.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:09 pm

Thanks for the advice man. I sincerely hope I don't run into Michael Mills, he seems like a real piece of work.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:44 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Thanks for the advice man. I sincerely hope I don't run into Michael Mills, he seems like a real piece of work.

Extremely ignorable person. You can set him as a "foe" on the User Control Panel and you won't see his posts at all.

Unless some idiot quotes them.

Right, Gord?
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:07 pm

Sounds like a plan :)

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:24 am

Rifles Shortages / Russia / 1941
Obviously, if Russia was short of rifles in 1941, then it wasn't about to invade anyone.

The problem is most of these stories about rifle shortages are anecdotal on an individual level. The production statistics for Mosin–Nagant 1891/30 rifles are obviously murky due to diverse factory co-production and older models in parallel production, so we can't simply match production out put to the size of the Red Army in 1940 to 1941.

However, the other way of assessing this rifle's availability is to observe the formation of "Guards Army Divisions" ( Гвардия ) between 1939 and 1941. A "Guards Army division" is not an elite division but rather a division that is at full manpower and fully equipped. ( A "Motorised Guards Army division" means it has the full number of trucks).

If you look at the formation date of Guards rifle divisions, you can see that most were formed ( fully equipped) at the time of Barbarossa and therefore cannot have been "existing potential threats" justifying a German invasion of the Soviet Union, before Barbarossa.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Frank Hoffman » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:12 am

All I know is what I read. The book "The Drive On Moscow" by Niklas Zetterling and Anders Frankson does a good job of describing the planning and execution in 1941. There are multiple reasons that operations are begun, one the book puts forth (citing documents) is that the German command structure planned and executed based on a rational contingency that it was only a matter of time until the U.S. entered the war. If that was going to happen, they wanted to have the eastern war (which they saw as inevitable) both begun and ended... and they thought they could do it. Basically the Wehrmacht was trying to win a campaign and the SS was a just unpleasant necessity for getting the bypassed soviet troops and irregulars under control (though, of course they were doing much, much more than that).

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:55 am

Frank Hoffman wrote:.... the German command structure planned and executed based on a rational contingency that it was only a matter of time until the U.S. entered the war..
That would seem right. Hitler did have fantasies that "if you kicked in the barn door, the whole barn would collapse". ( It didn't. It got bigger and smarter and angry against Germans)

I see the German attack on Russia as one of the numerous German intelligence failures. If they had good intelligence then the whole campaign would have been different or would have been cancelled. I enjoy reading the horror of German commanders outside Moscow when they first encounter T-34s. "Our PAK shells bounce off them!"

My favourite "American economic power" anecdote is about Rommel in North Africa. He was desperate to have 50 tons of fuel shipped to North Africa to move his tanks. He goes to a captured American airfield and discover 60 tons of Christmas cakes, sitting in aircraft, after being shipped from America to troops in Nth Africa. He told his aide de camp, the "war is lost".

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gord » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:21 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Thanks for the advice man. I sincerely hope I don't run into Michael Mills, he seems like a real piece of work.

Extremely ignorable person. You can set him as a "foe" on the User Control Panel and you won't see his posts at all.

Unless some idiot quotes them.

Right, Gord?

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Balsamo » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:45 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:This has likely been covered here before but I'll give it a shot.

Many Nazi apologist and white supremacists today (also known as "revisionists") are fond of describing Operation Barbarossa as a pre-emptive strike and thus justifying the genocidal intentions the Nazis had for the USSR (see Generalplan Ost) and their brutal occupation policies.

This is obviously nonsense. Hitler had been planning for an eventual invasion of the USSR and other eastern European territories as early as the 1920's (it was a dream of his). The soviets had gotten their assed kicked in the Winter War and were clearly in no position to invade anywhere. It is likely that Stalin began to make plans for an eventual campaign against Nazi Germany (hence the amount of troops near the border), but those plans were purely hypothetical and not expected to come to fruition for another several years (which explains the lack pot combat preparedness of said troops). And even then, the plans were suggested in early 1941, when planning for Operation Barbarossa began in July 1940.

I was wondering if anyone had any info at all to refute these allegations. The fact that they are used by Neo-Nazis to justify the hideous Lebenstraum plans makes refutation critical.


Playing the devil's advocate, i would say that not everything has to be refuted on order to condamn Hitler's Policy.
It should be noticed that by the end of 1939, Stalin had expended his border more than Hitler himself, although the red army had hard time in Finland does not mean it got its ass kicked, as the soviets graped a substancial portion of territory...it won the war with Finland, it also annexed all three baltic states and half poland, as well as bessarabia in the South.
Moscou was also supporting communist insurrection, in Germany after ww1, led a war against Poland, supported the communist regime in Hungary, all up to the road to the Spanish civil war.
Speaking of a peacefull nation is maybe overdue.

That a war between the two dictators was inevitable is quite obvious.

That of course does not mean that Hitler lauched Barbarossa as a preemptive strike. This is none-sense, although he knew that his alliance with the bosheviks was unnatural and therefore unreliable, and that it would beak sooner or later. There is also the fact that none of the Allies declared war on Stalin - although it committed the same crime. There must have been a reason, and the most probable is that somehow, Britain was hoping - while waiting/hoping for a US intervention - to convince Stalin to join the fight against fascism. Anyway, fact is that niether Britain nor France declared war on the USSR, had they done it, probably Barbarossa would have been delayed for a long time.

Anyway, the main reason is that Hitler knew he had not the ressources to lead a world war with the British Empire and certainly not when the USA would join, he needed ressources: steel, oïl, food, everything really...Once Churchill made it clear there would not be peace, Hitler turned to what seemed - especially after the winter war - as a achievable target.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Enquiring Minds » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:10 am

The two main authors of the Operation Barbarossa being preventive scenario are both Russian being Viktor Suvorov - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov He is the author of Icebreaker and The Chief Culprit : Stalin's Grand Design To Start World War II. From the Wikipedia entry "According to Suvorov, Stalin planned to use Nazi Germany as a proxy (the "icebreaker") against the West. For this reason Stalin provided significant material and political support to Adolf Hitler while at the same time preparing the Red Army to "liberate" the whole of Europe from Nazi occupation. Suvorov had argued that Hitler lost World War II from the very moment he attacked Poland: not only was he going to war with the powerful Allies but it was only a matter of time before the Soviet Union would sieze the opportunity to attack him from the rear. This left Hitler with no choice but to direct a preemptive strike at the Soviet Union"
and Igor Bunich - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Bunich He is the author of Operatsia Groza which was the Soviet code name for the invasion of Germany and Europe which translates as Operation Thunderstorm.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:36 am

Stalin didn't need a war with the Germans.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Austin Harper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:06 pm

He didn't need it but come on, who doesn't love a good war with the Germans?
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:21 pm

facts I picked up from TV - have to be true right ?
soviet military knew Hitler was going to attack , begged Stalin to let them attack first .
Stalin thought he was going to be shot by same military , and was shocked when they begged him for guidance after initial Nazi advances .
Nazi generals thought Hitler was a military genius , and Hitler thought even more of himself (before invasion of USSR). that was the main reason for the attack on USSR .
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makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:03 pm

Any number of people were telling Stalin the Germans were going to attack. He considered the warnings to be attempts to get him into war with Germany. He squashed any requests to preemptively attack.

And Stalin shot far more military than the Germans did. Everybody was scared spitless of him.

A Nazi generals did think Hitler was a genius, but German generals had severe doubts. They thought he was running on luck. When he decided to re-occupy the Saar some generals were ready to raise a putsch and overthrow him if the French and English so much as raised an eyebrow. They didn't. After that the Wehrmacht high command just went along with whatever he told them to do.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Frank Hoffman » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:49 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And Stalin shot far more military than the Germans did. Everybody was scared spitless of him.

With all the daily hyperbole about big government that we hear and read, we may have lost a real appreciation of what it must have been like to live in a true totalitarian state. I'm not sure how courageous with information and suggestions I would be if my entire family could be killed if Stalin frowned.
Somewhat off topic: I've often thought that Gandhi was very fortunate to live under British rule rather than Soviet; where if he dared to break the law and make salt, he would have quietly been disappeared, and no one would have ever heard of him.

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Monster » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:59 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:facts I picked up from TV - have to be true right ?
soviet military knew Hitler was going to attack , begged Stalin to let them attack first .
Stalin thought he was going to be shot by same military , and was shocked when they begged him for guidance after initial Nazi advances .
Nazi generals thought Hitler was a military genius , and Hitler thought even more of himself (before invasion of USSR). that was the main reason for the attack on USSR .

Nazi was a political party, not a nation/ethnicity.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Monster » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:05 am

Frank Hoffman wrote:Somewhat off topic: I've often thought that Gandhi was very fortunate to live under British rule rather than Soviet; where if he dared to break the law and make salt, he would have quietly been disappeared, and no one would have ever heard of him.

Agreed completely. Nonviolent resistance will only work if the nation has respect for civil rights.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:15 pm

Monster wrote:
Frank Hoffman wrote:Somewhat off topic: I've often thought that Gandhi was very fortunate to live under British rule rather than Soviet; where if he dared to break the law and make salt, he would have quietly been disappeared, and no one would have ever heard of him.

Agreed completely. Nonviolent resistance will only work if the nation has respect for civil rights.

Remember that scene in "Gandhi" were they asked the British commander if he would have brought up the machine gun-armed vehicles to massacre the peaceful protesters and he said "Yes."? One guy like that could have turned the non-violence campaign into a full-blown civil war on the subcontinent.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby supervitor » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:43 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:This has likely been covered here before but I'll give it a shot.

Many Nazi apologist and white supremacists today (also known as "revisionists") are fond of describing Operation Barbarossa as a pre-emptive strike and thus justifying the genocidal intentions the Nazis had for the USSR (see Generalplan Ost) and their brutal occupation policies.

This is obviously nonsense. Hitler had been planning for an eventual invasion of the USSR and other eastern European territories as early as the 1920's (it was a dream of his). The soviets had gotten their assed kicked in the Winter War and were clearly in no position to invade anywhere. It is likely that Stalin began to make plans for an eventual campaign against Nazi Germany (hence the amount of troops near the border), but those plans were purely hypothetical and not expected to come to fruition for another several years (which explains the lack pot combat preparedness of said troops). And even then, the plans were suggested in early 1941, when planning for Operation Barbarossa began in July 1940.

I was wondering if anyone had any info at all to refute these allegations. The fact that they are used by Neo-Nazis to justify the hideous Lebenstraum plans makes refutation critical.

You don't need to worry about this, whoever is making those claims is not looking at reality: it's like an Holocaust Denier or a Climate Change Denier: all you have to throw is facts at them, if you wish to engange..

No, the Russians amassed at the boarder because they knew they were going to be invaded: they had obviously detected Hitler's amassment of troops in Poland, the improvement of infrastructure (to move troops), the allies had informed the Soviets: all this certainly is documented and it has all been released, just look at the references of a WWII History book.

And why would you engage with Neo-Nazis (except to have some fun, maybe)?

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:07 am

And Stalin refused to believe all those reports, even from Richard Sorge. This may be why he went into catatonia for over a week starting on June 22nd.
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:49 am

supervitor wrote:And why would you engage with Neo-Nazis (except to have some fun, maybe)?
The Neo-nazis and holocaust deniers belong to groups that generally indulge in other activities. Most are pathetic but others get into money laundering, donation scams and introducing foreign political influence.

Additionally, as 9/11, JFK assassination and other conspiracy nuts, tend to follow other bizarre conspiracies it is a good idea to keep a evidence based forum active, that destroys holocaust denial claims, so as to stop tacit support for the cult, becoming a alternative lifestyle "badge of honour". As JREF and The Skeptic Society promote education, their forums have provided homes for anti holocaust denial activities.

:D

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supervitor
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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby supervitor » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
supervitor wrote:And why would you engage with Neo-Nazis (except to have some fun, maybe)?
The Neo-nazis and holocaust deniers belong to groups that generally indulge in other activities. Most are pathetic but others get into money laundering, donation scams and introducing foreign political influence.

Additionally, as 9/11, JFK assassination and other conspiracy nuts, tend to follow other bizarre conspiracies it is a good idea to keep a evidence based forum active, that destroys holocaust denial claims, so as to stop tacit support for the cult, becoming a alternative lifestyle "badge of honour". As JREF and The Skeptic Society promote education, their forums have provided homes for anti holocaust denial activities.

:D


Ok, sure.. My personal opinion is that, generally, reasoning doesn't work very well with people that get dragged to those belief systems.. My feeling is that there must be a deeper reason for people to get that disconnected from reality, and until that's addressed, not a lot is going to to work.
But sure, someone should be doing that job, at least there's hope someone can be pushed back to reality

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:04 am

supervitor wrote:[Ok, sure.. My personal opinion is that, generally, reasoning doesn't work very well with people that get dragged to those belief systems.
You are "spot on". You can't change people's belief systems, but you can see what they are up to.

supervitor wrote: My feeling is that there must be a deeper reason for people to get that disconnected from reality, and until that's addressed, not a lot is going to to work.
I love the anti holocaust denial sub-forum, simply because it attracts people, with every known personality disorder known to human kind. I always enjoy the "drive by posts" from holocaust deniers who can't even complete a sentence.
:D

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby supervitor » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I love the anti holocaust denial sub-forum, simply because it attracts people, with every known personality disorder known to human kind. I always enjoy the "drive by posts" from holocaust deniers who can't even complete a sentence.

lol, I was talking about social and economic conditions, environmental conditions, but I guess that can be related too..

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby supervitor » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:50 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And Stalin refused to believe all those reports, even from Richard Sorge. This may be why he went into catatonia for over a week starting on June 22nd.


Uau! your insight to Stalin's beliefs are kinda amazing. Are you trying to equate "him going to Catatonia" with "amassing defensive troops on his borders with occupied Poland"? That's more revealing of his thoughts, is that what you're saying?

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby OutOfBreath » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:54 am

supervitor wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And Stalin refused to believe all those reports, even from Richard Sorge. This may be why he went into catatonia for over a week starting on June 22nd.


Uau! your insight to Stalin's beliefs are kinda amazing. Are you trying to equate "him going to Catatonia" with "amassing defensive troops on his borders with occupied Poland"? That's more revealing of his thoughts, is that what you're saying?

I think gawd is referring to the fact that it really took stalin a week to say or do anything when faced with Hitler's attack. (Adressed the nation july 2nd almost 2 weeks after invasion) He seems to have been genuinely shocked that it happened, and thought he had a solid gentleman's agreement with Hitler. At least for the time being.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

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Re: Soviet Offensive Plans

Postby supervitor » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:11 am

OutOfBreath wrote:
supervitor wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And Stalin refused to believe all those reports, even from Richard Sorge. This may be why he went into catatonia for over a week starting on June 22nd.


Uau! your insight to Stalin's beliefs are kinda amazing. Are you trying to equate "him going to Catatonia" with "amassing defensive troops on his borders with occupied Poland"? That's more revealing of his thoughts, is that what you're saying?

I think gawd is referring to the fact that it really took stalin a week to say or do anything when faced with Hitler's attack. (Adressed the nation july 2nd almost 2 weeks after invasion) He seems to have been genuinely shocked that it happened, and thought he had a solid gentleman's agreement with Hitler. At least for the time being.

Peace
Dan


I don't think that's true. I think he knew what was going to happen (he saw; he was warned), but, as a politician does, tried to avoid it. He continued to fullfil his shipments of materials with Germany to avoid/delay the invasion, so his army could be more ready.

Remember, his troops didn't wait "2 weeks" to start defending. They started as soon as they were attacked.

That's a naive view over Stalin: if there's something he wasn't, it's naive.


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