Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:36 am

Now now... simmer down, chill out, have a beer...

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:56 am

TJrandom wrote:Now now... simmer down, chill out, have a beer...
"I hope they serve beer on Mars!"
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:09 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Now now... simmer down, chill out, have a beer...
"I hope they serve beer on Mars!"
Bears?... I once almost was refused entry into a national park in California - Kings Canyon when the gate guard said they had a beer problem, and I laughed - since we did enjoy a beer or two. She actually meant bear, but pronounced it beer. She cautioned us to use the beer proof lockers and never leave food out where the beers could get at it, and to call a ranger if a beer came into camp.

You might have to take your own six-pack of bears to Mars...

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:21 pm

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:38 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:...if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.
I can only approximate that answer if I solve for a perfectly spherical planet. :befuddled:
Isn't there one volcano that's 21,287.4 m high at the peak?
They said that on a documentary about Mars on the National Geographic channel. Email them to refute their claim I suppose.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:49 pm

You might recall that NatGeo is not a scientific journal, so they have no reason to even try to be credible.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:31 pm

Everything you wanted to know about Olympus Mons, including pics


For the lazy - - 22,500m according to this site.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:40 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You might recall that NatGeo is not a scientific journal, so they have no reason to even try to be credible.
I'll be sending you a list of journals we need to subscribe to in order to continue further. Please refrain from all debate in the meanwhile.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:49 pm

Child, grow up.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Nat Geo: every reason to be credible, its their subscription base. much more credible than pointless nay saying.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:03 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nat Geo: every reason to be credible, its their subscription base. much more credible than pointless nay saying.
They're entertainment, not education.

Now, post your quibbles with that so I can ignore them.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:12 pm

I won't quibble with you Gawd. Can't do that when you are completely wrong. Quibbles are about close calls. You post "old school" as if learning is a chore. Most people enjoy learning because it is entertaining. And if a source is not credible/factual, it loses all its education and all its entertainment. You confuse Nat Geo with whatever those gossip mags are at the grocery store check out.

You see the difference.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:52 pm

References vary in credibility. I would regard Nat geo as being well up the scale. Top of the scale are peer reviewed scientific journals like 'Science ' and 'Nature '. Just below them, the scientific news journals such New Scientist, ScienceDaily, and so on. Nat geo and a number of other fact based journals rate just below them again . Newspapers and popular magazines are well down, and the bottom of the list are crackpot web sites like "organic life " and about a million others.

If someone uses Nat geo as a reference, I will accept it until it is refuted by a reference higher up the totem pole.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:40 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:References vary in credibility. I would regard Nat geo as being well up the scale. Top of the scale are peer reviewed scientific journals like 'Science ' and 'Nature '. Just below them, the scientific news journals such New Scientist, ScienceDaily, and so on. Nat geo and a number of other fact based journals rate just below them again . Newspapers and popular magazines are well down, and the bottom of the list are crackpot web sites like "organic life " and about a million others. ...
And then even below those crackpot sites, we have a few posters on our forum... ;)

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:50 pm

I'll quibble and point out that Nat Geo is a journal of REVIEW....not the breaking science unless its reporting on such subjects. As such, Nat Geo can be thought of as 100% credible.....but not a source of new theories.

See the difference?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:11 pm

Nothing is 100% credible, Bobbo. Even research papers published in top journals are estimated to draw erroneous conclusions 30% of the time. But Nat geo is still a pretty good reference.

Just to get off the topic for a moment. I watch that rather excellent American TV comedy, the Big Bang Theory, which involves characters heavily into science. One of those characters is Dr. LEONARD Hoffstetter, who is a research physicist. Other characters, including his TV mother, have criticised him for doing non original research, by double checking other researchers findings. I thought that was very unfair (even though it is fiction), because such checking is vital for good science. Since 30% of research conclusions are probably wrong, those researchers who double check everything are utterly vital.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:14 am

I didn't say otherwise. I said "can be thought of" because great minds do not quibble.

Know what I mean?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:16 am

I like Big Bang with its pop culture short comings, but, even better for me is "Young Sheldon" about Sheldon growing up in Texas. The family dynamics are quite "sweet." Check it out.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Europa has a decent chance of being able to provide a space station with water and power and materials.
Other Jupiter moons might follow.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Just a coincidence.....but 3 different shows over the past week have interviewed scientists who have an interest in Space Exploration. None of them think colonizing Mars is possible in any predictable future. Sending missions to terraform and investigate Mars? Yes. Hoomans????==>No. Just too far away....is what THEY talked about. I'll add: too constantly HOSTILE.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Just a coincidence.....but 3 different shows over the past week have interviewed scientists who have an interest in Space Exploration. None of them think colonizing Mars is possible in any predictable future. Sending missions to terraform and investigate Mars? Yes. Hoomans????==>No. Just too far away....is what THEY talked about. I'll add: too constantly HOSTILE.
"Ooh, I just saw a science fiction movie, and I think we should go live on Mars. Screw the cost and let's pretend that Mars is an interesting place to live. We can bankrupt the earth, because it's not our money."

It's like leaving a $10M luxury home because the floor is dirty, and going to live in a cave in Antarctica because it's an "adventure."
Our planet may need a little work to clean up, but Mars is worse than the earth could ever get through centuries of neglect.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:58 pm

Going to Mars will be safer that Columbus going to the Indies via a canal that hadn't been dug yet. ;-)
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:18 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Going to Mars will be safer that Columbus going to the Indies via a canal that hadn't been dug yet. ;-)
I'm going to disagree. They could have dismantled the ships and carried them over-land for less effort and expense than a Mars mission nowadays in comparative terms.
About the time of Columbus, the Republic of Venice entered negotiations with Egypt's ruling Marmadukes to dig a precursor to the Suez Canal. It was cut short by the Ottoman conquest of Egypt in 1517, led by Sultan Selim.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:31 pm

Again, a serious lack of vision being shown here.

Sure, a colony on Mars may not happen soon. Certainly not in the next 30 years. A human visiting Mars is possible within that time. But given a longer time period, there is no reason a colony could not be set up, using the more advanced technology of the future. A small nuclear reactor for energy. Advanced electric arc smelters to obtain raw materials. Advanced 3D printers for manufacturing. Vats of GMO algae for food and oxygen. Special robots to dig underground radiation free habitats. The Martian Boring Company.

Elon Musk has his faults, but he has proved his worth with his space vehicles. His new 'B.F. ' rocket is designed to carry 100 tonnes payload, and has the range to reach Mars. Landing safely will be difficult, but several Mars probes have shown it is possible. A few trips carrying that payload would give a small number of colonists their start. Although I still think it would be smarter to reach for the asteroids. I read an item that said a journey to Phobos (moon of Mars) in terms of energy, would be equal in difficulty to a moon landing, which was done in more primitive times. Phobos is small enough, with a low enough gravity, that it would be more a docking than a landing. Much the same applies to near Earth asteroids.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:45 pm

Come to think of it...……..one of the scientists mentions there is no "profit motive" in going to Mars. Its the kind of mission left to the gubment and gubment funding.

THAT ain't gonna change in 30 years.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:12 pm

True, unless your definition of 'profit ' is broader than mere money.

Mind you, there is oodles of money to be made in asteroid mining. There is an immense wealth of higher atomic weight elements, much easier to access on asteroids than on Earth.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:06 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:True, unless your definition of 'profit ' is broader than mere money.

Mind you, there is oodles of money to be made in asteroid mining. There is an immense wealth of higher atomic weight elements, much easier to access on asteroids than on Earth.
What does building a condo on Mars have to do with robot asteroid mining?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:38 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:True, unless your definition of 'profit ' is broader than mere money.
The third step in nuttery: changing the definitions of words to suit your mania.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:True, unless your definition of 'profit ' is broader than mere money.
The third step in nuttery: changing the definitions of words to suit your mania.
To take the definition of "profit" outside the realm of money, it takes a lot of imagination.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:41 am

landrew wrote: What does building a condo on Mars have to do with robot asteroid mining?
Nothing, but I made it clear from the beginning that my view is that a space habitat and using asteroids for resources is preferable to a Mars colony.

On profit.
I did not change definitions. The word profit is widely used in speech and written material to mean things other than money. A Mars colony is seriously unlikely to fetch a financial profit, but could easily make a major profit in terms of scientific knowledge. Where was the profit in the large Hadron collider? In science, that is where.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:47 am

Yes...……….….so the CONTEXT IS MONEY. You changed the definition...………….a definite sign of nuttery.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:06 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes...……….….so the CONTEXT IS MONEY. You changed the definition...………….a definite sign of nuttery.
I pointed out that the word could have more than one meaning. A simple truth.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:47 am

Yes. that is what context means. "Could have" is an ham-fisted attempt to cloud over what actually is.

Your attempt at manipulation is just too transparent. You aiming at being Trumps next daily briefer?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Austin Harper » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:45 pm

1500s Landrew wrote:Why would anybody sail across the Atlantic when life here in Europe is so much easier?
Dum ratio nos ducet, valebimus et multa bene geremus.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:28 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
1500s Landrew wrote:Why would anybody sail across the Atlantic when life here in Europe is so much easier?
Black Death is still lurking around there.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:38 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Austin Harper wrote:
1500s Landrew wrote:Why would anybody sail across the Atlantic when life here in Europe is so much easier?
Black Death is still lurking around there.
Actually, life in Europe wasn't easy, particularly for the early colonists. They were facing persecution, heavy debts or wars. The trip across the Atlantic was usually a big roll of the dice, an all or nothing type of thing. Many colonies died out for every successful one.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:28 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: Black Death is still lurking around there.
Actually, one potential advantage of being a colonist on Mars (or somewhere else off Earth) is to be disease free. Every colonist is likely to be thoroughly checked for any infectious ill and only the healthiest permitted. No diseases to be passed on. Imagine a life with no colds, flus, or any other ill. Any cut or abrasion would heal quickly and cleanly with no bugs to infect it.

I remember how, when I was on a course of potent antibiotics, I got stabbed deeply in the hand with a sea urchin spine. By the time I dug it out, there was a nasty, messy wound. It healed clean within about 4 days, in spite of the fact that I was over 60 years old, and all healing was usually slow. The antibiotic kept infection out and the healing was utterly miraculous. Imagine that as the norm !

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by TJrandom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:31 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote: Black Death is still lurking around there.
Actually, one potential advantage of being a colonist on Mars (or somewhere else off Earth) is to be disease free. Every colonist is likely to be thoroughly checked for any infectious ill and only the healthiest permitted. No diseases to be passed on. Imagine a life with no colds, flus, or any other ill. Any cut or abrasion would heal quickly and cleanly with no bugs to infect it.

I remember how, when I was on a course of potent antibiotics, I got stabbed deeply in the hand with a sea urchin spine. By the time I dug it out, there was a nasty, messy wound. It healed clean within about 4 days, in spite of the fact that I was over 60 years old, and all healing was usually slow. The antibiotic kept infection out and the healing was utterly miraculous. Imagine that as the norm !
Nice imagination, but it isn`t going to happen. At birth, babies have diseases and gain additional viruses and bacteria with each passing day. Anyone who goes will take them along. In fact, disease is likely to be what ends any colonisation as not having as many will sap the buildup of natural defenses.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:46 pm

As we age, we absorb subatomic particles which shoot holes in our chromosomes and age us that much faster. I suppose you could live over a kilometer underground in solid rock, where you might live longer, but it's basically a lit fuse that burns down in less than a century in most cases.

Going to Mars is basically like strapping yourself to dynamite with a short fuse. Not only are you going one-way to a bleak and depressing place, with no hope of ever returning, but you are probably not going to live long enough to write about it. Now who wouldn't want to spend $Trillions for that?
Hmmm?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:30 pm

We have more microscopic bugs in us than human cells...by a factor of 10 by some statements. Turns out, there are many complicated interactions in our biome that have just been discovered and are still being suspected and searched for.

I was thinking more than just be disease free when sent to Mars.....have a full course of anti-biotic "cleansing" to really send "just hoomans" to Mars...……..but without knowing, I guess we can't live without our bugs (vitamin production and digestion come immediately to mind). What would our bugs think of mars?

Mars: always constantly HOSTILE. I can buy a space station and the Moon. Mars: robots only if even then.
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