My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:40 pm

Poodle wrote:How many people/commercial organisations/governments/espionage agencies, do you think, having spent gazillions of local currency units on an orbital experiment, would be prepared to risk all on an untested delivery system? No - don't answer - I'll tell you. NONE. It had to be a dummy payload and, if that's the criterion, why not one of his own cars?


We'll agree to disagree. I'll tell you that at half cost I believe many would have risked an untested delivery system that cost them nothing if it failed. That's sound business when looked at from a cost versus risk analysis.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:49 pm

If you risk a $400,000,000 satellite and it blows up on launch, you've lost a $400,000,000 satellite even if the launch was for free.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:58 pm

Leon Musk has never been a great businessman. Most of his operations run at a loss. Tesla cars, for example. Certainly his space efforts are not making money and probably never will.

For this, I salute him. There are enough total arseholes out there doing whatever it takes to add a few more billions to their wealth. Leon Musk is not such an arsehole. He is a visionary, trying to take humanity into a brighter and more exciting future.

If you want to be practical and profit oriented, you can criticise him on many points. Launching a car into Mars orbit is certainly one such point. But it has a certain admirable style.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:01 pm

ELON, not LEON
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:03 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:If you risk a $400,000,000 satellite and it blows up on launch, you've lost a $400,000,000 satellite even if the launch was for free.


Ok now do you think that the only viable useful satellite costs $400 million?

**Spoiler alert** India just put a satellite into space and the total cost (including launch costs) was under $100 million.

SOOOOOO what about a satellite that costs 1 million? is that worth saving 3 million to take a risk of it blowing up?

**Spoiler alert** It is.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:05 pm

Coveny wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:If you risk a $400,000,000 satellite and it blows up on launch, you've lost a $400,000,000 satellite even if the launch was for free.


Ok now do you think that the only viable useful satellite costs $400 million?

**Spoiler alert** India just put a satellite into space and the total cost (including launch costs) was under $100 million.

SOOOOOO what about a satellite that costs 1 million? is that worth saving 3 million to take a risk of it blowing up?

**Spoiler alert** It is.


My point was that it is not just the launch cost which would be at risk, as you were implying.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:13 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Coveny wrote:My point was that it is not just the launch cost which would be at risk, as you were implying.


My point is that something better could have been sent up than a Tesla. The launch cost is a tangent for the people who are attempting to counter that claim by saying that "no one" would send up an experiment in an untested rocket. I'm not in any way implying that cost is the only risk, but the counter claim addressed cost so my rebuttal addressed cost. (that's debating)
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:16 pm

Coveny wrote:... My point is that something better could have been sent up than a Tesla ...

Well of course it could. But it wasn't. How simple do you want this to be?

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:33 pm

Matching Coveny's opinion against Elon Musk's? I know which way to bet.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:36 pm

It would have been more useful to launch Trump and enough close associates to make up the required test mass. Perhaps Musk could have sold it as "A launch into the Greatest Greatness ever Greated by the Greatest Greats."

There would have been much rejoicing.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:37 pm

Leon?==>Elon????? I thought his name was Felon after his Ca Tax Grant FRAUD on recharging stations? No?????

I do kinda like the camera idea.....or maybe better some kind of asteroid detecting device(s) that should be very cheap to make (relatively) and perhaps find the planet killer that is coming our way?
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:40 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:ELON, not LEON


Whoops. Sorry about that. I did not notice. My spelling correction program does that to me rather too often.

I kind of agree with Coveny, that a better payload could have been used. But it was Musk's choice, and he was not asking anyone else to pay for it.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:51 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:ELON, not LEON


Whoops. Sorry about that. I did not notice. My spelling correction program does that to me rather too often.
Took me a while to stop seeing "LEON" on the 'net. :lol:
I kind of agree with Coveny, that a better payload could have been used. But it was Musk's choice, and he was not asking anyone else to pay for it.

An actual rocket scientist made the choice.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:15 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:It would have been more useful to launch Trump and enough close associates to make up the required test mass. Perhaps Musk could have sold it as "A launch into the Greatest Greatness ever Greated by the Greatest Greats."

There would have been much rejoicing.


I support this dummy payload. :D
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:27 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: An actual rocket scientist made the choice.

Who was that? Felon's schooling first megamillions was in software design IIRC. He's a smart dude so he hires the best and reads a lot...but not really a scientist or a rocket scientist. In the main, now, he acts as a business man promoting his brand. I can see future ad campaigns using the meme.

Its long vs short term thinking ABOUT business. Or, maybe just an ego stroke. Ha, ha.......he could have sent up an autographed picture of himself?........................ too obvious??????? So he sent his car.........as long as there will be History, there will be Tesla in Space............
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:29 am

I just hope it doesn`t stop for hitch hikers...

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:31 am

After mouthing off, I thought I'd look it up. Split decision.........the man is a multi-tasker.

In 1992, after spending two years at Queen's University, Musk transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, where in May 1997 he received a Bachelor of Science degree in physics from its College of Arts and Sciences, and a Bachelor of Science degree in economics from its Wharton School of Business.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:41 am

On point, the Washington Post reports what most likely will destroy the Tesla in Space: hint: its not (maybe) micro meteors and such. Nice joke about it will immediately depreciate....but thats economics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 988f412873
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by JO 753 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:15 am

Sad newz to report.

Spridle and ChimChim Racer were hiding in the trunk. They probably suffocated (mercifully) within minutes uv launch sins there are no airtite sealz.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:On point, the Washington Post reports what most likely will destroy the Tesla in Space: hint: its not (maybe) micro meteors and such. Nice joke about it will immediately depreciate....but thats economics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 988f412873


Ooooh! Not a nice way to go. It's a good job he used a car instead of something more important.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:55 pm

Just so long as it doesn`t get pulled over for speeding, running stop lights, or maybe illegal lane changes...

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:26 pm

..or, curiously, the next Mars Rover reporting running into a car while parking...
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:02 pm

Poodle wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:On point, the Washington Post reports what most likely will destroy the Tesla in Space: hint: its not (maybe) micro meteors and such. Nice joke about it will immediately depreciate....but thats economics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 988f412873


Ooooh! Not a nice way to go. It's a good job he used a car instead of something more important.


Yes because we couldn't learn anything from a probe spending "over hundreds of millions of years in space" before radiation destroyed it. You know something like this... https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/12/us/break ... index.html
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:10 pm

If only you'd have explained this to him before the launch!
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:25 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If only you'd have explained this to him before the launch!


For some reason he didn't ask my opinion on what he should do... it's was really strange.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:00 pm

Risking a billion-dollar payload on a test flight would have been a foolish thing to do.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Every launch into space has a risk. Its a question of balance.....................
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:52 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Risking a billion-dollar payload on a test flight would have been a foolish thing to do.

No, no, no, he should have sent a thousand hamster balls into orbit around ... you know. :lol:
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:20 pm

It was a successful publicity stunt. Publicity stunts have value, though not scientific value.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:49 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:It was a successful publicity stunt. Publicity stunts have value, though not scientific value.

Publicity fuels science.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:02 pm

The NZ based company Rocket Labs, recently sent their first satellite into orbit. They also sent a 'balloon' with shiny reflective faces, to make it visible to the naked eye. For the next few months, if you look into a clear night sky in the right place at the right time, you will see a "star" that outshines the planets.

That was also purely a publicity stunt. Rocket Labs plans to make money by offering a service to send small satellites into orbit at relatively low cost. Publicity will help their marketing.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11982564

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gord » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:13 pm

Coveny wrote:
Gord wrote:Yeah, Musk seems like a bit of a wastrel to me, throwing money at his pet projects.

And some of his ideas are just ridiculous. I mean, the hyperloop idea isn't even feasible -- how the hell are you going to get a near vacuum in a tube system that long? Air pressure will crush it like a tin can. And if throw out the vacuum part of the project, there's no point having it in a tube at all. Then you're just left with a high speed train, which would have been a far more reasonable project to propose in the first place.

Due to the physics of the tube shape the length of the vacuum doesn't really matter on "crushing it like a tin can" only the ends. It's not difficult to achieve a vacuum with an airtight cylinder. Think of an egg. If you tap it with something hard it breaks, but try to crush it by putting equal pressure on all sides and you'll find it's a difficult task.

I don't do the physics anymore, my brain broke a long time ago, but I did use to have to work out vacuum pressures for my astronomy classes way back in the Olden Days. The length of the tube affects how much air you'll have to move out of the tube -- that was my point. Crushing it like a tin can was a separate point, although it also relates to the length because larger systems have more points of vulnerability. If you had 1000 isolated pipes that were reduced to vacuums, then if one of them failed, the others would still be viable. But if they're all connected, when one fails, you've lost vacuum in all of them.

Here's a video by Thunderf00t (who comes across as an ass but still has a point or two):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=RNFesa01llk

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Risking a billion-dollar payload on a test flight would have been a foolish thing to do.


Nanocraft that Hawkings and NASA wanted for alpha centauri cost roughly $200 each. So 100k would be like 500 of them sent in all sorts of directions out into space. I'm not getting where you believe this stuff cost billions. India built and sent a satellite into space for a total cost of under 100 million.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:45 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:It was a successful publicity stunt. Publicity stunts have value, though not scientific value.


Yes but my point is that it could have been so much more...
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:53 pm

Gord wrote:
Coveny wrote:
Gord wrote:Yeah, Musk seems like a bit of a wastrel to me, throwing money at his pet projects.

And some of his ideas are just ridiculous. I mean, the hyperloop idea isn't even feasible -- how the hell are you going to get a near vacuum in a tube system that long? Air pressure will crush it like a tin can. And if throw out the vacuum part of the project, there's no point having it in a tube at all. Then you're just left with a high speed train, which would have been a far more reasonable project to propose in the first place.

Due to the physics of the tube shape the length of the vacuum doesn't really matter on "crushing it like a tin can" only the ends. It's not difficult to achieve a vacuum with an airtight cylinder. Think of an egg. If you tap it with something hard it breaks, but try to crush it by putting equal pressure on all sides and you'll find it's a difficult task.

I don't do the physics anymore, my brain broke a long time ago, but I did use to have to work out vacuum pressures for my astronomy classes way back in the Olden Days. The length of the tube affects how much air you'll have to move out of the tube -- that was my point. Crushing it like a tin can was a separate point, although it also relates to the length because larger systems have more points of vulnerability. If you had 1000 isolated pipes that were reduced to vacuums, then if one of them failed, the others would still be viable. But if they're all connected, when one fails, you've lost vacuum in all of them.

Here's a video by Thunderf00t (who comes across as an ass but still has a point or two):

If you don't know him, Thunderf00t is the psuedonym of Dr. Philip Mason, a chemist who has worked in the fields of chemistry, physics, and nuclear physics (which sounds more impressive than it is -- you might say his work in the food industry let him play with radioactive materials).


Well leaks are an issue, but they aren't that difficult to deal with so long as there is room to put patches inside the tube and still have room for the cargo. The vacuum part isn't the difficult part to achieve. As another post mentioned the difficult part is the end of the tube where the bullet... err cargo comes out of. With the Gen-2 model there is the added difficulty of suspending in miles into the air, but the Gen-1 model would be such a huge step forward it's insane. It runs off electricity, and would cost like a tenth of what it does now to send cargo into space. if the price drops then we'll me more open to space exploration and Musk's dream of Mars colonization.
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Pyrrho
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:10 am

Coveny wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Risking a billion-dollar payload on a test flight would have been a foolish thing to do.


Nanocraft that Hawkings and NASA wanted for alpha centauri cost roughly $200 each. So 100k would be like 500 of them sent in all sorts of directions out into space. I'm not getting where you believe this stuff cost billions. India built and sent a satellite into space for a total cost of under 100 million.

Okay, then risking a $100,000 payload would have been foolish.

It was a test flight.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:22 am

Pyrrho wrote: It was a test flight.

It's a floor wax AND a desert topping.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:29 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Coveny wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Risking a billion-dollar payload on a test flight would have been a foolish thing to do.


Nanocraft that Hawkings and NASA wanted for alpha centauri cost roughly $200 each. So 100k would be like 500 of them sent in all sorts of directions out into space. I'm not getting where you believe this stuff cost billions. India built and sent a satellite into space for a total cost of under 100 million.

Okay, then risking a $100,000 payload would have been foolish.

It was a test flight.


A test flight that normally cost 6 million dollars to achieve what it achieved... Maybe 6 million isn't a big deal to waste to you, but that's not how I view 6 million..
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gord » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:58 am

Coveny wrote:The vacuum part isn't the difficult part to achieve.

I find that hard to believe.

Here's a couple of links.

http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/design- ... op/157339/

...For starters, the radial thermal expansion of the steel tubes under direct sunlight will result in pipeline distortions between joints. And, over a 100km pipeline, the longitudinal thermal expansion could be as much as 50m, meaning that a huge number of flexible joints would have to be in place. With so many moving joints, over such a distance, all under vacuum: it’s a maintenance nightmare in the making....


https://jalopnik.com/a-physicist-explai ... 1123562141

...If you want to get an idea of how hard getting a good vacuum is over any length of tube, take a look at what the Large Hadron Collider facility has to do to get just under 27 km of tube at a good, hard vacuum. http://cds.cern.ch/record/455985/files/p291.pdf has more details about that than you could ever want....
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:00 am

If you want to maintain a vacuum, just have more pumps than you need. 200% capacity perhaps. Then if HALF of the pumps suddenly fail you still have 100% of the evacuating capacity available. The pumps would be spaced appropriately along the line.
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