My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

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My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:18 am

I’ve always been a big fan of magnetic levitation trains in vacuum tubes like the Virgin hyperloop. This project is inspiring. It could bring the globe together and better the lives of everyone on the planet. The concept is from Musk and it’s awesome on many different levels, but he’s not backing that horse. He wants to go to space, but rather than working with the maglev technology of a Startram he’s trying to re-invent the wheel with fossil fuel based rockets. To add insult to injury for his first package into space he sent a Tesla as a publicity stunt. I share the sadness for the waste of an opportunity for research and advancement that this represents.
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And it’s not like Musk isn’t renewable energy conscious. His solar collecting shingles are very nice, and pretty cool. Even if I’m his Powerwall is un-inspiring it’s at least an attempt to move away from fossil fuels.

Now I tried to think positively about this. I tried to convince myself that this is just advertising, and it’s working. I should admit that a lot of people are talking about it. I’ll also admit that as this was the maiden voyage so as Musk said, “there is a good chance this monster rocket blows up”, but the whole thing just seems like such a waste to me. He could have easily sent up expendable experiments, or I’m sure he could have gotten some investors to take a risk with a contingency that if the rocket blew up they wouldn’t have to pay for the trip, but if it was successful they had to pay him and he could have recouped some much-needed capital on his passion project.

I get the infatuation with space, but it just seems like to me that he’s throwing reason out the window in pursue of his dreams.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gord » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:07 am

Yeah, Musk seems like a bit of a wastrel to me, throwing money at his pet projects.

And some of his ideas are just ridiculous. I mean, the hyperloop idea isn't even feasible -- how the hell are you going to get a near vacuum in a tube system that long? Air pressure will crush it like a tin can. And if throw out the vacuum part of the project, there's no point having it in a tube at all. Then you're just left with a high speed train, which would have been a far more reasonable project to propose in the first place.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:47 am

But if it is in a tube, you control for side wind (none), and you get to harvest the air that is pushed out in front, assuming it is a large train in a small tube.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:50 am

And just think of the high hurdle that is being set for distance on a single charge... :mrgreen:

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:53 am

Third copy of this I've seen.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:54 am

Gord wrote:Yeah, Musk seems like a bit of a wastrel to me, throwing money at his pet projects.

And some of his ideas are just ridiculous. I mean, the hyperloop idea isn't even feasible -- how the hell are you going to get a near vacuum in a tube system that long? Air pressure will crush it like a tin can. And if throw out the vacuum part of the project, there's no point having it in a tube at all. Then you're just left with a high speed train, which would have been a far more reasonable project to propose in the first place.
Submarines endure much greater PSI than unamplified air pressure could ever produce.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by JO 753 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:59 am

The Russianz sent 2 carz into space. First in the early 70z then the 2nd in the 90z. The 2nd wun wuz in orbit for about 3 owrz befor it aksidently crashed into the 1st wun.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:18 am

Linx please....

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:25 am

:)

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:26 am

TJrandom wrote:Linx please....
"Wut?"
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:13 pm

:kit:

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:20 pm

He had to have a dummy payload anyway, and parking's free in space.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:33 pm

Poodle wrote:He had to have a dummy payload anyway, and parking's free in space.
You can never find a parking orbit when you need one. :x
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:27 pm

"Don't worry, there's plenty of on-street parking near-by."

Me after three hours.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:13 pm

For the foreseeable future, burning fossil fuel is the only way to get to Space, and the PURPOSE of the Rocket is to get man to Mars, not to solve the AGW issues here on earth. I agree making the rocket available for cost contingent investors/experiments would have been a good idea.....he missed that one as there still likely would have been room for the Tesla...........if not for a Teapot?

If we are going to turn over our space program to private enterprise.................. you gotta make room for the egos.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:39 pm

Some people think their issue is "the issue". Strangely, that's seldom the case.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:33 pm

Elon Musk Will Launch His Tesla Roadster to Mars on SpaceX's 1st ...
https://www.space.com › Spaceflight

Dec 1, 2017 - It really is Mars or bust for Elon Musk. The billionaire says he's going to launch his own Tesla Roadster on the first test flight of SpaceX's new giant rocket next month, and the car will play David Bowie's "Space Oddity" full blast on the way to Mars (if the rocket doesn't explode during liftoff). In a pair of Twitter ...
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:05 pm

My, you are slow on the up take.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:22 pm

Gord wrote:Yeah, Musk seems like a bit of a wastrel to me, throwing money at his pet projects.

And some of his ideas are just ridiculous. I mean, the hyperloop idea isn't even feasible -- how the hell are you going to get a near vacuum in a tube system that long? Air pressure will crush it like a tin can. And if throw out the vacuum part of the project, there's no point having it in a tube at all. Then you're just left with a high speed train, which would have been a far more reasonable project to propose in the first place.
Due to the physics of the tube shape the length of the vacuum doesn't really matter on "crushing it like a tin can" only the ends. It's not difficult to achieve a vacuum with an airtight cylinder. Think of an egg. If you tap it with something hard it breaks, but try to crush it by putting equal pressure on all sides and you'll find it's a difficult task.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:24 pm

Poodle wrote:He had to have a dummy payload anyway, and parking's free in space.
My whole point is that he did NOT have to have a dummy payload.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:For the foreseeable future, burning fossil fuel is the only way to get to Space, and the PURPOSE of the Rocket is to get man to Mars, not to solve the AGW issues here on earth. I agree making the rocket available for cost contingent investors/experiments would have been a good idea.....he missed that one as there still likely would have been room for the Tesla...........if not for a Teapot?

If we are going to turn over our space program to private enterprise.................. you gotta make room for the egos.
Startram gen-1 takes roughly 10 years to construct and pays for itself in less than 10 years. The only reason fossil fuels are the "only way" to get to space is because that's what everyone keeps repeating...
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:41 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:My, you are slow on the up take.
Thats amusing, on a number of levels. You post in a vacuum no one knowing what/who you are responding to, and you assume all responses are to you.

.............Given the ambiguity, thats only one of several immediate scenarios. Pros and cons to all we do.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:My, you are slow on the up take.
Thats amusing, on a number of levels. You post in a vacuum no one knowing what/who you are responding to, and you assume all responses are to you.

.............Given the ambiguity, thats only one of several immediate scenarios. Pros and cons to all we do.
What? I thought that Gawd was referring to me... ;)

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:46 pm

Another point about vacuums........they don't need to be soda can crushing perfect. Just enough so the cost of the vacuum is paid for by the increased efficiency? My concern is the tube would be like the Titanic: any hole and the ship could sink if not found and repaired?

"Startram gen-1 takes roughly 10 years to construct and pays for itself in less than 10 years." /// What should Felon Musk do then if he wants pay back/proof of concept in less than 20 years?

Could StarTram Revolutionize Space Travel? - Space.com
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Oct 6, 2017 - All air will be evacuated from the tube in order to eliminate drag. Craft will exit the lengthy tube at a speed of 8.8 kilometers per second in order to escape Earth's atmosphere. A generation-1 StarTram design intended to launch cargo vessels will feature a 81-mile tube built up the side of a mountain to reach ... ////81 miles? Sounds like a totally different "project" but nicely CONVERGENT with the next tech for cheap space flights?
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:47 pm

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:My, you are slow on the up take.
Thats amusing, on a number of levels. You post in a vacuum no one knowing what/who you are responding to, and you assume all responses are to you.

.............Given the ambiguity, thats only one of several immediate scenarios. Pros and cons to all we do.
What? I thought that Gawd was referring to me... ;)
Yep. I thought he was referring to the OP. Thats the thing with ambiguity. anyone can think whatever they want to..... just as we do.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:51 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Another point about vacuums........they don't need to be soda can crushing perfect. Just enough so the cost of the vacuum is paid for by the increased efficiency? My concern is the tube would be like the Titanic: any hole and the ship could sink if not found and repaired?

"Startram gen-1 takes roughly 10 years to construct and pays for itself in less than 10 years." /// What should Felon Musk do then if he wants pay back/proof of concept in less than 20 years?

Could StarTram Revolutionize Space Travel? - Space.com
https://www.space.com › Tech

Oct 6, 2017 - All air will be evacuated from the tube in order to eliminate drag. Craft will exit the lengthy tube at a speed of 8.8 kilometers per second in order to escape Earth's atmosphere. A generation-1 StarTram design intended to launch cargo vessels will feature a 81-mile tube built up the side of a mountain to reach ... ////81 miles? Sounds like a totally different "project" but nicely CONVERGENT with the next tech for cheap space flights?
All they need are a bunch of little Dutch boys to stick their little appendages thumbs into any holes...

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:55 pm

booboo, no need to post that YOU are slow on the uptake.

As for the Hyperloop, it only has to withstand 14 psi. What's so hard about that? I worked with pipes that had to withstand 950 psi of superheated steam and they seldom failed.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:55 pm

TJrandom wrote: All they need are a bunch of little Dutch boys to stick their little appendages thumbs into any holes...
Haven't I apologized enough for that?............... Ha, ha.........IIRC, I didn't apologize. Well, I thought about it. Thought that might be worse than letting it stand. Let the situation detumesce.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:58 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:booboo, no need to post that YOU are slow on the uptake.

As for the Hyperloop, it only has to withstand 14 psi. What's so hard about that? I worked with pipes that had to withstand 950 psi of superheated steam and they seldom failed.
Well thanks Gawd. Totally ambiguous again, but I'll take it in the good way I'm sure you mean....because, Lord Knows, Gawd is not mean.

I agree.... the pressures do seem minimal.....so for me, its a cost analysis. Mostly a one time capital cost vs ongoing operations. It should work....................
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:19 pm

Coveny wrote:
Poodle wrote:He had to have a dummy payload anyway, and parking's free in space.
My whole point is that he did NOT have to have a dummy payload.
He's a businessman. He's built a vehicle designed to put things into orbit, or even take them to the Moon. He already knew that the motive units worked as he's already sold their services. What he didn't know was if three of them strapped together would operate efficiently to deliver a payload into space. Had he successfully tested the three-strapped-together unit without a payload, he would than have had to send up another one to test it with a payload. This does not seem to be an efficient or economic use of resources to me. In fact, there's no seem about it. The eminently sensible way to do it is to test the vehicle in its full operating configuration.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by JO 753 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:26 pm

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:29 pm

Poodle wrote:
Coveny wrote:
Poodle wrote:He had to have a dummy payload anyway, and parking's free in space.
My whole point is that he did NOT have to have a dummy payload.
He's a businessman. He's built a vehicle designed to put things into orbit, or even take them to the Moon. He already knew that the motive units worked as he's already sold their services. What he didn't know was if three of them strapped together would operate efficiently to deliver a payload into space. Had he successfully tested the three-strapped-together unit without a payload, he would than have had to send up another one to test it with a payload. This does not seem to be an efficient or economic use of resources to me. In fact, there's no seem about it. The eminently sensible way to do it is to test the vehicle in its full operating configuration.
How does it not make MORE sense to offer the flight for free if it blows up to those willing to risk it? Musk could make the offer and if none taken, then do what he did. But if some few did accept it, with the risks known......then everybody wins. How was this not a lost opportunity?
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:34 pm

How many people/commercial organisations/governments/espionage agencies, do you think, having spent gazillions of local currency units on an orbital experiment, would be prepared to risk all on an untested delivery system? No - don't answer - I'll tell you. NONE. It had to be a dummy payload and, if that's the criterion, why not one of his own cars?

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:40 pm

Well...............if you ASSUME the answer..............sure. But even so.........why not make the offer, just for grins/whatever/satisfy Coveny? I'm sure some highschool somewhere would like to have sent up the Basket Ball Coaches pet dog? Hmmm....come to think of it........was this test a one way trip into the far reaches? I think so. I don't know what that would allow for testing wise...but probably not the Coaches pet dog. That would not be prudent. Send up some potatoes instead.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:09 pm

It's a good thing Musk had style, it's in short supply.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:14 pm

That car weighs almost 1.5 US tons. That's why it was a realistic payload.

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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by JO 753 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:15 pm

Odd that nobody mentioned that 'blasting David Bowie' makes no sens sins therez no air to carry the sound.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:27 pm

Poodle wrote:That car weighs almost 1.5 US tons. That's why it was a realistic payload.
Plus they got to wave at Douglas Adams! :yahoo:
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Coveny » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:37 pm

Poodle wrote:
Coveny wrote:
Poodle wrote:He had to have a dummy payload anyway, and parking's free in space.
My whole point is that he did NOT have to have a dummy payload.
He's a businessman. He's built a vehicle designed to put things into orbit, or even take them to the Moon. He already knew that the motive units worked as he's already sold their services. What he didn't know was if three of them strapped together would operate efficiently to deliver a payload into space. Had he successfully tested the three-strapped-together unit without a payload, he would than have had to send up another one to test it with a payload. This does not seem to be an efficient or economic use of resources to me. In fact, there's no seem about it. The eminently sensible way to do it is to test the vehicle in its full operating configuration.
Not arguing for a non-payload. I'm arguing against a dummy payload.

I do agree on one point though "The eminently sensible way to do it is to test the vehicle in its full operating configuration." it's fully operating configuration is to put freight into space. Freight someone else paid to have sent up. In lou of making money he should have sent up a payload of small high quality camera probes and shotgunned them across the universe. Given how cheap they are to make these days I expect the value of them would have been lower than a Tesla, and how cool would it have been to have 100s of different live feeds from different corners of space? The inspiration factor would have been higher, the knowledge gained would have been higher, and the payload wouldn't have been DUMBy.
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Re: My issue with Musk sending a Tesla into space

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:40 pm

Opinions.
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