pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

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pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby mirror93 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:13 am

another sold out physicist pushing more new age gibberish, in the articles below you see his focus only in "personal identity" and the "who am I" question, which clearly shows he is too worried with this issue, not with doing actual physics, but using it in favor of his agenda.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9609006.pdf
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-manyworlds/

this guy uses the MANY WORLDS INTERPRETATION as an excuse to say that our personal identity is not really real, and you have many different selves in different quantum states, or whatever that means, and some people even postulates that at each attosecond quintillions of different realities are being created and many with many different yous chosing different paths, with different personalities,

any skeptic to clarify if this interpretation even suggest it? does this pose any problem with 'personal identity'?
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:20 am

mirror93 wrote:......any skeptic to clarify if this interpretation even suggest it? does this pose any problem with 'personal identity'?


There is little point asking skeptics to debunk a twenty year old piece of nonsense, that everyone has forgotten about. That bloke who wrote it, never asked skeptics to read it and cannot argue back against any comments we make.

As a general rule, forum skeptics only debunk ridiculous claims that are presented to us, where the person bringing it here, is going to put up an argument for the claim.

We had a poor kid with autism, who joined the forum and wanted to debunk neo- nazis. He kept going to extremist Neo nazi websites and reposting their neo-nazi propaganda here. The neo--nazis never read our forum and couldn't care less what we thought about our propaganda, so all we got was a couple hundred posts of copied nazi propaganda.

There is more interesting bull-shit out there anyway. "Personal identity" discussions are very boring

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:03 am

Matthew said

There is more interesting bull-shit out there anyway. "Personal identity" discussions are very boring


Yes I agree as a general rule that "Personal Identity" discussions are boring. But given that we all do have a "Personal Identity", well under the perhaps topic of "Self", there is room for some discussion.

We are all very complex beings, except Gorgeous, so that complexity perhaps seeks some discussion. I don't know if we could generate enough interest to keep a thread on the subject alive, but we are all very different in our make-ups and our perceptions of how our world operates.

Me? I'm a very complex sort of person. I have trouble identifying my own traits at times. I believe I understand the reasons for the confusion (in my mind), but because I can sway from one belief, addiction, to another at the drop of a hat, presents that complexity.

Humans are very complex persons, and I find the study and explanation of those complexities fascinating. So therefore my friend, I must disagree with your perception of "very boring".

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:08 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Humans are very complex persons, and I find the study and explanation of those complexities fascinating. So therefore my friend, I must disagree with your perception of "very boring".
I think the modern obsession with personal identity is rather silly. According to the insecure, there are hundreds of genders, most of which have nothing to do with the concept of gender. I offer as proof the term 'blizzgender,' allegedly defined as, 'a gender that feels cold, snowy, and harsh.' Dafuq does that even mean? This person claims multiple genders simultaneously.

If that wasn't inane enough for you, there are the raving nutters who claim to be 'unicorn kin' or 'angel kin' or 'dragon kin.' How is this any less insane than believing you're Napoleon? These are just delusional ways to feel special and scream, "Pay attention to me!" to the world.

The claim is that gender is dictated by behavior. So, if I chance to wear makeup, I'm female, but if I use power tools, I'm male? Does eating carrots make me 'Bugs Bunny kin?' Ridiculous. I'm female because I have two X-chromosomes.

I see two explanations:
1. We've seriously {!#%@} up the younger generations by fostering a sense of entitlement via things like peer promotion and participation awards to the extent that they are attention junkies; or,
2. A large subset of the populations requires mental health help, and isn't getting it.

Or both.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:23 am

Nikki says

I see two explanations:
1. We've seriously {!#%@} up the younger generations by fostering a sense of entitlement via things like peer promotion and participation awards to the extent that they are attention junkies; or,
2. A large subset of the populations requires mental health help, and isn't getting it.
.
.

Well Nikki I have serious problems DISAGREEING with your suppositions.

#1 Yes we sure have f*cked up our young people. Their belief that life owes them an existence, a living, a right (to what I don't know), or anything else. IMHO we have been sucked in by the leftist thinking people, and of course their beliefs, which our young people have accepted with open arms. And why not? These suggestions in turn suggest that our young should be free to make up their own minds, with no guidance from people who have experienced a lot more life than they.

#2 Wow! I like your supposition here. I have been blogging locally about our road toll (carnage), and I have stated that we need to come up with some system that allows us to eliminate those without the required mental aptitude, from the system. I.E. doing 215 kph in a 100 kph zone, recording a blood alcohol level of .28% against the legal limit of .05%. These people obviously don't care, and no amount of penalties is ever going to have an affect.

What do we do?? F*cked if I know, because nobody in power gives a sh*t.

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:08 am

Personal Identity is and has always been situational: you are a different person with your boss than with you are with your children, etc.
Personal Identity is also the greatest tool for creativity.
The luxury of the current age has allowed an unprecedented number of people to feel and act like individuals.
This is both a good and inevitable result of our affluence.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:59 pm

sounds like they have been reading Seth books....Seth has said we have multiple selves in other dimensions, all part of us...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Poodle » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:03 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Personal Identity is and has always been situational: you are a different person with your boss than with you are with your children, etc.
Personal Identity is also the greatest tool for creativity.
The luxury of the current age has allowed an unprecedented number of people to feel and act like individuals.
This is both a good and inevitable result of our affluence.


Is that what it's called now? When I was in full-time education which, admittedly, was not yesterday, it was called role play and everyone understood it. It was an expression of nothing more than "How easy do I want to make my life?" and "Who's paying my wages?" But it was what you describe as Personal Identity. I suspect sociologists (who probably go by the name of 'Societal Norms and Crisis Operatives' now) have always simply made stuff up as they went along. To add to that, I strongly suspect (although, like sociologists, I have no definitive data) that female emancipation and universal education were the events - certainly in the UK - which have "allowed an unprecedented number of people to feel and act like individuals".

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:25 pm

I'm with Poodle, but also wonder if this is the new construction?

ElectricMonk wrote:Personal Identity is and has always been situational: you are a different person with your boss than with you are with your children, etc.
I would say who you are with your boss AND with your children, wifey, friends, when the Flag is raised, etc is what your personal identity is. It is one large thing with the same basic impluses being constrained/loosed by the circumstances that one personality is facing. The contra makes no sense at all: treat you boss like your kiddies or vice versa?===silly.

I can craft what you are talking about....the "application" of one's personality/values to different situations. The "person" isn't changing at all. We are all rather inflexible.

ElectricMonk wrote:Personal Identity is also the greatest tool for creativity.
Ha, ha.....try.....JUST TRY...to apply any definition to that. Put me in front of a blank canvas...how does my Personal Identity express itself? Again, I'm with Poodle. Education, exposure, the freedom to explore and find one's own interests. You aren't extended "situational" to all that are you?


ElectricMonk wrote: The luxury of the current age has allowed an unprecedented number of people to feel and act like individuals. This is both a good and inevitable result of our affluence.
I agree that personal expression requires the freedom of free time. Not to be usurped by the AlreadyTooRich. We need more lerts.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:39 pm

I would say that we run different personality software on our brain hardware, depending on circumstances: plenty of problems come when we can't switch off work mode in a family setting, etc.
Sure, all those programs are "us" in a sense, but they are distinct personalities, like the Concentration Camp guard being a loving father and husband: something like this wouldn't be possible if we couldn't create dissonance between our reactions from situation to situation.
And it has nothing to do with the multiverse.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:25 pm

"Pop pseudoscience" is redundant.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Aztexan » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:38 pm

I'm glad those other me's are living wonderful lives thanks to my making bad choices, leaving them to take the more fruitful paths.

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:06 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Nikki says

I see two explanations:
1. We've seriously {!#%@} up the younger generations by fostering a sense of entitlement via things like peer promotion and participation awards to the extent that they are attention junkies; or,
2. A large subset of the populations requires mental health help, and isn't getting it.
.
.

Well Nikki I have serious problems DISAGREEING with your suppositions.

#1 Yes we sure have f*cked up our young people. Their belief that life owes them an existence, a living, a right (to what I don't know), or anything else. IMHO we have been sucked in by the leftist thinking people, and of course their beliefs, which our young people have accepted with open arms. And why not? These suggestions in turn suggest that our young should be free to make up their own minds, with no guidance from people who have experienced a lot more life than they.
At least in the US, most adults show an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance when talking about young people, especially teenagers. They do their best to prevent youngsters from having sex, or a beer. At the same time, they expect a level of mature decision-making that neurology tells us is impossible, given the maturation of the prefrontal cortex. So, at 14, I'm too young for sex or beer, but I'm capable of deciding the direction my life should take? I'm expected to know whether I want to attend a traditional high school or a vocational one, and which courses apply to my future goals.

Similarly, at 18, you're a 'legal adult' who can drive a car, own property, and die for your country, but you still can't have that beer because you lack judgment? Kids are screwed up because our society screws them up.

Phoenix76 wrote:#2 Wow! I like your supposition here. I have been blogging locally about our road toll (carnage), and I have stated that we need to come up with some system that allows us to eliminate those without the required mental aptitude, from the system. I.E. doing 215 kph in a 100 kph zone, recording a blood alcohol level of .28% against the legal limit of .05%. These people obviously don't care, and no amount of penalties is ever going to have an affect.

What do we do?? F*cked if I know, because nobody in power gives a sh*t.
People still equate 'mental health disorder' with 'crazy.' Even our insurance companies treat them differently, as if they're not physiologically-based. (Lots of people fail to make the connection: if mental health disorders aren't physiologically-based, then how do they occur? Magic?) The stigma is still there.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:13 pm

"I'm expected to know whether I want to attend a traditional high school or a vocational one, and which courses apply to my future goals." /// We have vocational HS's now? I thought all that real world stuff was in decline? I never decided a single thing until 24 years old. Until then, I just went with the unspoken flow. Every HS in my town had vocational programs (shop classes) along with college prep, along with day care (thats sarcasm for the average student)...... and lots of Phys Ed options. I never chose college prep.........I was given a test one day and told what to take.

what a cocoon.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:56 am

Well Bobbo, I don't doubt there are many cocoons out there. Either in the US or here, that was the way it normally happened.

But accepting that I'm not normal, I decided at 8yo that I wanted to be an accountant so that I could afford to buy a dairy farm. Now I don't know about dairy farms in the US, but it is the last profession you would voluntarily enter to day.

Well I did become an accountant, in between playing soldier, driving semi's, driving taxis, et al et al. But I finally got my farm. Not a dairy farm, just a hobby farm to retire onto. But being the pig-headed bastard that I am, it's not that surprising.

But I do not make light of the general problem of parents and society trying to make kids conform to their pre-conceived ideas of what kids should do. The more my old lady told me not to smoke, not to drink, not to have sex, well, the more I did all those things.

Just remembering prohibition in America, it didn't work either.

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:31 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"I'm expected to know whether I want to attend a traditional high school or a vocational one, and which courses apply to my future goals." /// We have vocational HS's now? I thought all that real world stuff was in decline? I never decided a single thing until 24 years old. Until then, I just went with the unspoken flow. Every HS in my town had vocational programs (shop classes) along with college prep, along with day care (thats sarcasm for the average student)...... and lots of Phys Ed options. I never chose college prep.........I was given a test one day and told what to take.

what a cocoon.
My city has both a traditional and a vocational high school. My friend's son will be graduating from voke this year, and he's already working in the largest machining plant in the area. The voke has much better career counseling, internships, and connections with the community.

I never chose college prep either; my parents did...then made sure that I took courses they felt were necessary to a well-rounded education. I assume this was based, at least in part, by the fact that I was a straight A student through the 8th grade.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:08 am

What happened after 8th grade Nikki? Nah, just jiving you mate. :D

We used to have a similar thing here in Oz. When you got into high school, grade 7 upwards, you either took subjects that led to a commercial career, or those that led to a trade. Most of that seems to have disappeared today - very sadly. And the availability of apprenticeships has fallen dramatically. We are losing skills rapidly.

Those wanting to do a trade moved on to Technical College, whilst those doing science or commercial subjects continued on at high school. But as my Mother proved, there was a lot of prejudice here. She was determined I was going to do a commercial course rather than a LOWLY trades course - if she only knew how much good trades people earn today. Mind you, my rates as an accountant aren't to shabby either.

What has happened to our education standards here is concerning. I would guess it is no different over there. Although I know there isn't one, God help us!

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:23 am

We had "academic", "industrial arts", "farm science", "business" and "homemaker" tracks. They wanted me on the "academic" track, but there was no money for college, so I went with "industrial arts". My counselor said I was a great disappointment. I said the Y-donor wouldn't waste any money on non-mandatory education. (He didn't finish the 6th grade.) Counselor said that didn't matter. Money was going to come from Heaven?

Twenty years later I started a fourteen year stint at Purdue, getting two bachelors and a masters in the process. {!#%@} you, Mrs. Dimwitty.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:58 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:What happened after 8th grade Nikki? Nah, just jiving you mate. :D
ADHD, which wasn't even a diagnosis back then. Even when it became one, it was almost never applied to girls/women. The overwhelming majority of medical studies had only male participants until recently. Part of this is because the disorder manifests differently in girls than it does in boys. Boys generally exhibit hyperactivity, while girls daydream.

Phoenix76 wrote:We used to have a similar thing here in Oz. When you got into high school, grade 7 upwards, you either took subjects that led to a commercial career, or those that led to a trade. Most of that seems to have disappeared today - very sadly. And the availability of apprenticeships has fallen dramatically. We are losing skills rapidly.
Even basic life skills appear to be in the process of being lost. Quite a lot of young people don't know how to cook, for example. Or change a flat tire safely. (Loosen the lug nuts before you jack up the car! Unless, of course, you want to dislodge the jack and have it break your leg. :roll: ) Or formulate a sensible budget.

Phoenix76 wrote:Those wanting to do a trade moved on to Technical College, whilst those doing science or commercial subjects continued on at high school. But as my Mother proved, there was a lot of prejudice here. She was determined I was going to do a commercial course rather than a LOWLY trades course - if she only knew how much good trades people earn today. Mind you, my rates as an accountant aren't to shabby either.
At the time we're expected to make that decision, we lack the knowledge to make it. Schools don't do skills assessments, or even expose students to the plethora of available professions and what they entail. I might have been a brilliant furniture-maker, a fantastic chef, or a talented auto mechanic...but how would I know? I was never exposed to those things, and no one ever matched up my inherent skills to appropriate professions, then steered me in the relevant direction.

Phoenix76 wrote:What has happened to our education standards here is concerning. I would guess it is no different over there. Although I know there isn't one, God help us!
It's pretty awful here, even in Massachusetts, the seat of public education. For medical reasons, I home-schooled my daughter for the 7th grade. While we finished the entire Biology textbook with months to spare, her peers didn't even get halfway through it. No allowance is made for "gifted students" or for "slow learners." Everyone's in the same class, working at the same pace, so most students either aren't challenged or aren't getting the attention they require. That's just insane, especially considering that the reins will be in their hands at some point.
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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Gord » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:43 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:What happened after 8th grade Nikki? Nah, just jiving you mate. :D

ADHD, which wasn't even a diagnosis back then. Even when it became one, it was almost never applied to girls/women. The overwhelming majority of medical studies had only male participants until recently. Part of this is because the disorder manifests differently in girls than it does in boys. Boys generally exhibit hyperactivity, while girls daydream.

Ha! I was a daydreamer, which means I got diagnosed as "advanced"! :lol: They thought I was bored with the curriculum. I was actually just bored with all the humans I was forced to be around.

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Re: pop pseudoscience attacking personal identity

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:41 pm

Gord wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:What happened after 8th grade Nikki? Nah, just jiving you mate. :D

ADHD, which wasn't even a diagnosis back then. Even when it became one, it was almost never applied to girls/women. The overwhelming majority of medical studies had only male participants until recently. Part of this is because the disorder manifests differently in girls than it does in boys. Boys generally exhibit hyperactivity, while girls daydream.

Ha! I was a daydreamer, which means I got diagnosed as "advanced"! :lol: They thought I was bored with the curriculum. I was actually just bored with all the humans I was forced to be around.

Gimme a hammer, a large enough board, and enough nails to last forever, and I'm happy.
Up until high school, I was "gifted." Once the ADHD hit, I only got As in subjects that interested me and skated by with Bs and Cs in classes that bored me. Then I discovered how my memory works, and I was able to make study sheets in the form of a grid. A bit of info went into each cell of the grid, and I could remember the info by remembering its location on the grid. Got me through the tests. :mrgreen:
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