The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

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The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:03 am

Understanding the origin of life is arguably one of the most compelling quests for humanity. This quest has inevitably moved beyond the puzzle of life on Earth to whether there's life elsewhere in the universe. Is life on Earth a fluke? Or is life as natural as the universal laws of physics?

Jeremy England, a biophysicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is trying to answer these profound questions. In 2013, he formulated a hypothesis that physics may spontaneously trigger chemicals to organize themselves in ways that seed "life-like" qualities.

Now, new research by England and a colleague suggests that physics may naturally produce self-replicating chemical reactions, one of the first steps toward creating life from inanimate substances.


https://www.livescience.com/60250-did-l ... -laws.html

and also this link from within the article.

https://www.livescience.com/13363-7-the ... -life.html

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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:09 am

Why is this question compelling........ even "at all?"

Life happened. Details are actually irrelevant. Of interest to those not more interested in other questions even more compelling like: "How to keep life sustained." MUCH MORE COMPELLING.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:06 am

Well perhaps Bobbo, you lead a very boring life with little interest in "Why is it so".

Throughout this forum you are typically critical of many posts. You seem to lack the scientific drive to understand "Why is it so".

"How to keep life sustained", yes a very compelling question. Why don't you make a post addressing that question instead of just sitting on you fanny heaping criticism on everyone who voices an opinion?

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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:17 am

nonsense....like others who say we evolved from bacteria...and the bacteria became fully conscious....ridiculous..........life spark came from God...deal with it...
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:24 am

Gee Gorgeous, I was hoping you would jump in on this one, right up your alley I thought.

See, nobody, not even your gorgeous self, has ever proven god exists. At least the topics of this thread presents some arguments relative to theories of our origins.

If you believe that this is all the work of a god, then you present arguments to support your theory. And present arguments which negate the ideas presented here.

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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:47 am

" one of the first steps toward creating life from inanimate substances." ---can't be done....life must already exist
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:51 am

Life has been created from scratch in the lab using several different techniques.

The mystery is not how life starts, but which way life started on Earth. I don't see it as all that interesting myself...... except to counter abysmal ignorance.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:05 pm

from scratch how?...life has to exist first...
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:21 pm

When earth was a molten ball of magma......where was the life?
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:23 pm

Nice show on tv....nova type show about how life is a continuum flowing into various MINERALS and so forth.... more than I had known...... "Life from Rocks" or something like that. Lots of minerals will form an organized sequence of molecules much like dna will do. Get the right minerals...and you got some basic life chemicals forming "spontaneously."

this is not debatable.

If you want your Woo to be strong, you should avoid the abysmally ignorant.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby gorgeous » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:38 pm

life chemicals forming "spontaneously."------------nope....by design...and who gave chemicals life?...what created the magma?....there were trillions of other planets with life long before Earth...and teaming with non-physical beings...
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:39 pm

not debatable.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Poodle » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:17 pm

Pixies.

Obvious.

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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:15 am

Phoenix76 wrote:
Understanding the origin of life is arguably one of the most compelling quests for humanity. This quest has inevitably moved beyond the puzzle of life on Earth to whether there's life elsewhere in the universe. Is life on Earth a fluke? Or is life as natural as the universal laws of physics?

Jeremy England, a biophysicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is trying to answer these profound questions. In 2013, he formulated a hypothesis that physics may spontaneously trigger chemicals to organize themselves in ways that seed "life-like" qualities.

Now, new research by England and a colleague suggests that physics may naturally produce self-replicating chemical reactions, one of the first steps toward creating life from inanimate substances.


https://www.livescience.com/60250-did-l ... -laws.html

and also this link from within the article.

https://www.livescience.com/13363-7-the ... -life.html
That was fascinating, regardless of the peanut gallery's opinions. I agree with the article that answering this question is "compelling." And I appreciated the fact that England himself described his findings as preliminary, but it does seem that he has discovered a phenomenon that merits further study. Thanks for sharing, Phoenix!
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:07 pm

I'll say again: we will NEVER know how life started here on Earth or anywhere else. You have to be around to "observe" such things. What we have examined is how life "can" start. I enjoy the volcanic vent scenario...but it could just as easily gone the other way around.

Rank order your interests........ and have fun.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Well perhaps Bobbo, you lead a very boring life with little interest in "Why is it so".

Throughout this forum you are typically critical of many posts. You seem to lack the scientific drive to understand "Why is it so".

"How to keep life sustained", yes a very compelling question. Why don't you make a post addressing that question instead of just sitting on you fanny heaping criticism on everyone who voices an opinion?


so personal and judgmental you are Phoenix. So.... you think anyone not supposedly interested in the same things you are in the same way you are lead boring lives huh?

I am typically critical: thank you.

Science does not examine the why of things. Such a basic concept: makes me boring right?????

Criticism or insight? Have to be a very boring person to have only one fixed opinion.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:23 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I'll say again: we will NEVER know how life started here on Earth or anywhere else. You have to be around to "observe" such things. What we have examined is how life "can" start. I enjoy the volcanic vent scenario...but it could just as easily gone the other way around.

Rank order your interests........ and have fun.
We may never know, but does that mean we should curb our curiosity every time we conclude we can't arrive at a definitive answer? Science would come to a standstill if we did.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Monster » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:22 pm

gorgeous wrote:nonsense....like others who say we evolved from bacteria...and the bacteria became fully conscious....ridiculous..........life spark came from God...deal with it...

How did god make life?
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:10 pm

Bobbo: This post will likely bore you to tears. Instead of perusing it, feel free to go watch some porn.


An alternative hypothesis

Then there's this

{quote}Self-replication occurs when an informational molecule (such as a nucleic acid) directs the spontaneous synthesis of a replica of itself. Mechanisms for self-replication can be autocatalytic, where a molecule acts as a template to make a direct copy of itself, or cross-catalytic, where two or more molecules of different informational content amplify one another. Modern life forms use a complex cross-catalytic mechanism of replication that involves the participation of protein molecules that catalyze the replication of the informational polymer (nucleic acids), which are also involved in the synthesis of the catalysts themselves. Primordial life.[/quote]


A tentative pathway
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby gorgeous » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:08 pm

idk
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Major Malfunction » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 pm

A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

But given the Laws of this particular Universe, probably inevitable.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Confidencia » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:56 am

gorgeous wrote:nonsense....like others who say we evolved from bacteria...and the bacteria became fully conscious....ridiculous..........life spark came from God...deal with it...


The spark came from you gorgeous. God is an invention, somebody needs to be there first before the idea of god can be perceived, do you not think this is simple logic? I am the root god is the tree. Therefore the earth is mine, what grows on it is gods.

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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:29 am

Major Malfunction wrote:A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

But given the Laws of this particular Universe, probably inevitable.

Take a planet where life CAN exist. ADD vast amounts of the right chemistry. SHAKE and BAKE. Chemistry labs the size of worlds can produce many interesting things.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:32 pm

I don't like going "all personal" regarding opinions, but its called for here.

Mostly, I'm responding to the notion that the search for the origin of life (on Earth--?) is "one of the most compelling quests for humanity." Now........it seems to me this is an objective opinion that is subject to rational examination. My view: it can't be compelling if we can never know it. That does not mean: its not interesting or that I am a boring person. It simply means that something that CANNOT be known, is not COMPELLING.

COMPELLING: Tending to persuade by forcefulness of argument. Where is the argument? Nothing but ab hominem in response.

Now, years ago when it was in the news, I followed every story I found regarding "producing life in the laboratory" and there were a number of goes at this along with work on developing stem cells and the issue of cloning. All interesting each in their own right.

Was life seeded from a meteor or asteroid? From primitive atmosphere with lightning?? At the energy sites of undersea volcanoes??? From tide pools basking in the sun???? I've always thought: why not all four?????? and more of course and the POINT of my comment: what difference would it make if we could even know it? Just a cosmic crap shoot with the dice being rolling continuously until 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 is hit. Whats "interesting and compelling" is all the ways in which life can arise (and putting that knowledge to USE (my nom de flame is central to my posting) for whatever use there is).

Now.....am I boring or constantly negative???? Ha, ha.........as you wish. I get the most pleasure in identifying those issues on which I AM WRONG. Less dramatic positive nudges in a more accurate direction is also noticed and enjoyable, may I say, just not as compelling? You will disagree, if you find discomfort outside your cocoon.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:41 pm

Oh, you're routinely snotty too.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:47 pm

Lets consider that.

snotty: overly conceited or arrogant. Hmmmm.... hard to disagree and not pick up that perception.......if you don't enjoy being disagreed with.

There are two types of people in the world: those that look to/blame anyone but themselves, and those who primarily look to their own resources regardless of what quibbles could be made? Ha, ha.....I disagree with each element of the definition. Are you using some other?---and how do you separate yourself from it, if you even feel the need to do so?

Edit: just a quick review as I get back to trying to clean up my kitchen: must the ab hominem continue? Not that I "really" mind..... but its just as vacuous as not even trying to point out why discovering how life began on Earth is compelling. Just take that position, and denigrate anyone who disagrees.

Be substantive........on the personal analysis or the substance of the issue................ Try it.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:35 pm

On, and you're an {!#%@} as well.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:05 pm

Ha, ha...........Gawd. You crack me up. Well played sir.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:30 pm

A little cynicism is good, a lot of it is annoying.

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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:40 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:A little cynicism is good, a lot of it is annoying.

And quite often a substitute for "cool" by the badly misinformed.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:43 pm

So, is finding the beginning of life on Earth compelling or not?
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:13 pm

Is that really something people need to be berated on? I get that you don't find that interesting at this point in time and there are people that are treating it as being subjective; but who cares? People find it interesting and many are hearing for the first time and getting enjoymentioned from hearing about it. Let people enjoy that. It's not as if we're joining a cult.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:26 pm

Gee Cadmusteeth...still on it huh? Who is beratedited anything? I said myself I found the subject and related issues interesting. Its the concept of COMPELLING that I drew attention to FOR THE SPECIFIC POINT: that we will NEVER KNOW.

Now...I find THAT EXTREMELY INTERESTING AND COMPELLING: what we know and what we will never know and what to do about it.

Frankly....I'm shocked at the lack of interest shown to this superenumerate of the subject. Especially as I have now directed attention to the issue.

Compelling means that if you disagree..... there is something "wrong" with you. I find it compelling to point such fallacies out. Once understood, it should make all contemplaters that much smarter and able to take on the challenges of life. Isn't that a positive undertaking. Even compelling?

To your first complaint: I don't see how anyone should ever "register" that some other poster is this, that, or the other thing. I skip the names and go to the post itself. Each post standing on its own. I mean, what are we?..... little girls arranging a tea party, or what????
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:33 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:Is that really something people need to be beratedited on? I get that you don't find that interesting at this point in time and there are people that are treating it as being subjective; but who cares? People find it interesting and many are hearing for the first time and getting enjoymentioned from hearing about it. Let people enjoy that. It's not as if we're joining a cult.

Bobbo likes being a dick.
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:37 pm

Gawd: when I say I am not a dick but rather a "dick whisperer" do you get what I'm saying?
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gee Cadmusteeth...still on it huh?

Yep ;)

Who is beratedited anything?

You did, on this thread, toward virtually everyone on it.

I said myself I found the subject and related issues interesting. Its the concept of COMPELLING that I drew attention to FOR THE SPECIFIC POINT: that we will NEVER KNOW.

Now...I find THAT EXTREMELY INTERESTING AND COMPELLING: what we know and what we will never know and what to do about it.
I did notice that. But it was undermind by the condsending and "holier that thou" tone in your posts.

Frankly....I'm shocked at the lack of interest shown to this superenumerate of the subject. Especially as I have now directed attention to the issue.
Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in those details also. It's the way you brought it up that I have a problem with. (See above)

Compelling means that if you disagree..... there is something "wrong" with you.

Phoenix was the only one to bring that up directly. And even though I don't agree with everything he said to you, I do agree that your criticisms are unnecessary. At least, the way you're giving it is in my opinion.

I find it compelling to point such fallacies out. Once understood, it should make all contemplaters that much smarter and able to take on the challenges of life. Isn't that a positive undertaking. Even compelling?

You're going to have to work on your delivery because you are doing shitty job.

To your first complaint: I don't see how anyone should ever "register" that some other poster is this, that, or the other thing. I skip the names and go to the post itself. Each post standing on its own. I mean, what are we?..... little girls arranging a tea party, or what????

(My bold)
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:33 pm

Cad: the words in isolation "sound good"===but are they in substance?

All I have done in form is "disagree." Isn't that one of the main rewards of a forum? the exchange of ideas????

When I criticize anyone for what they say, and I have the time and concern, I will offer up alternative language that would make the same point without the objectionable "tone." Without reviewing each line myself for what is not right now "my" concern, IIRC: all I have done is say the issue of how life arose is not compelling AND I gave reasons. Seems like the only criticism you could have of that is that the idea was not sugar coated????? Something I did not think this forum required to maintain good will?

So...........prove me wrong, educate me: what did I say and how should it have been more acceptably presented?

Yes.......as tone is COMPLETELY captured by the words used: copy and paste what you object to, why, and the better version.

I look forward to your response and my education.
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bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:12 pm

Having just given two "disagreeing" responses and one positive response that has a 50/50 chance of being taken as disagreement, I'm wondering if each and every post should end with a :-)

Is that tone enough or given the demand and echo for more sugar, is a double indicated? :-) :-)

.............and I actually wonder..... how many thumbs up have I given? Does it matter???
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:12 am

Researching the origin of life may have all kinds of valuable outcomes. Science is like that. You do not have to begin with a practical end in mind. It often just follows as a consequence. The early researchers into radioactivity did not have nuclear energy in mind. The first observation of penicillin was accidental.

I am totally in favor of research, on as broad a scale as possible. Who can judge what we will discover, and how it may revolutionise human life.

I also disagree with Bobbo when he says we will never know. He is only partly correct. We will never know all the exact details of how life began . But we will learn in a broader sense the processes that lead to living things. In fact, a lot has been learned already.

I do not think life is inevitable. Organic molecules appear to be inevitable, but not life itself. Organic molecules appear on asteroids, in nebulae, in meteors and in all kinds of unlikely places. But life has never been seen anywhere but planet Earth. I suspect it takes a very special set of conditions to create life.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: The Origin of Life: Physics or Fluke?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:03 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
I also disagree with Bobbo when he says we will never know. He is only partly correct. We will never know all the exact details of how life began . But we will learn in a broader sense the processes that lead to living things. In fact, a lot has been learned already.

Lance: that is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. Prove me wrong by copy and paste of what part I got incorrect.

...............................and don't you dare call me boring, lonely, or snotty. Given you and I disagree about 95% of the time, you have never as yet gotten into the muck of ab hominem.

I do admire you for that. Ha, ha............I could go on, but I'll stop now................still waiting of Cadteeth to man up.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


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