Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
landrew wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You are not the person to say something like this will work or not.
No, I'm right, it doesn't work right now, that much is certain, and I don't believe it will be solved this century.
And you don't have the skill set to make that prediction valid.
Granted. But you keep changing the terms of reference. It's a fact that we don't have the technological solutions to colonize Mars at present. It's my opinion that we won't solve them this century. Any more objections?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:25 pm

You base your opinion on your prejudices.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You base your opinion on your prejudices.
Yes, the facts prejudice my opinion.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:41 am

I for one apprciate that landrew said it was his opinion. We all have opinions, and most of them prove to be wrong, but being honest about an idea being merely an opinion is excellent.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:47 pm

landrew also mentioned facts. What facts support and idea leading to opinions is the difference between night and day, right and wrong, nuclear and green.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:landrew also mentioned facts. What facts support and idea leading to opinions is the difference between night and day, right and wrong, nuclear and green.
Is it not a firm fact that we have no means at present to colonize Mars? <--Fact part.
It is my opinion that the solutions for colonizing Mars are a long way off. <--Opinion part.
It seems that someone has conflated the two.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:30 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Columbus never set foot on continental America, but he's the one remembered.
Ask nearly anyone nowadays, and I think the answer will be someone other than Columbus. Since around 1960, schools have been mentioning the Viking settlements near L'Anse aux Meadows.

Perhaps germane to this discussion, the Viking settlement failed to sustain itself for very long. Mars is a far less forgiving place than North America. The first few English colonies in America were also failures.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:34 pm

Mars is not forgiving at all. It is 100% hostile, all the time. Fact: Mars has no breathable atmosphere. Opinion: we can't colonize where we can't breathe.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:40 pm

Biosphere 2 failed in several ways, and there hasn't been an attempt to fix them with a "Biosphere 3." Perhaps the biggest problem is that humans can't tolerate each other for an extended period of time. Purportedly, there are still serious animosities between some of the participants, years later. Other examples are Pitcairn island, which was the scene of several bloody homicides before they were rediscovered, and an island where some Japanese soldiers and civilians were marooned for years after the war ended. I believe only one survivor was found, having killed all the others.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:43 pm

Yep. Need to start any colonies with room to get away from one another or families. Maybe a hard set religious attitude would bind them together until interbred into an extended family?

I think you could test/train a beginning small group that would get along with one another...…….but they would still need to breathe.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:01 pm

Here's what seems to be propelling this discussion along:
A: "You are raining on my parade. I want everyone to think moving to Mars is the best idea."
B: "I don't think we are anywhere near ready to start spending shiploads of money on it."
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Depending on the source, we currently inhabit around 4% of the earth's land surface. We could colonize earth for the next millennium, at a tiny fraction of the cost of going to Mars. That doesn't even include the oceans, so we could start there next.

Why do you want to trash our Earth so readily? That's like buying a new car every time the ash tray is full.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:08 pm

As I think I said before:
"The garden spot of Mars is much, much worse then the most inhospitable spot on earth."
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:21 pm

Ha, ha...….….the idea of "colonizing Earth first" is very insightful. Learn how to sustain life on Earth, before we take our garbage interstellar?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:54 pm

A possible colony will not fail due to internal hostilities. The experiments have been done, putting people together for long periods, and people can adapt.

A Mars colony is quite possible, given some technological advances. It would need a small nuclear reactor for energy. It would need a water source, both for agriculture and to make oxygen, but we already know Mars has water. Soil for growing things can be made by mixing organic waste with ground up rock. Radiation free habitats can be made by digging tunnels. Manufacturing materials will be easier with the latest and greatest 3D printer designed in the year 2030. The failure of Biosphere 2 will not be relevant, since the Mars colony will be permitted to introduce external resources, such as water and oxygen (from electrolysis) from outside the colony.

I still think, though, that a space habitat mining resources from asteroids would be smarter and easier.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:15 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:A possible colony will not fail due to internal hostilities. The experiments have been done, putting people together for long periods, and people can adapt.

A Mars colony is quite possible, given some technological advances. It would need a small nuclear reactor for energy. It would need a water source, both for agriculture and to make oxygen, but we already know Mars has water. Soil for growing things can be made by mixing organic waste with ground up rock. Radiation free habitats can be made by digging tunnels. Manufacturing materials will be easier with the latest and greatest 3D printer designed in the year 2030. The failure of Biosphere 2 will not be relevant, since the Mars colony will be permitted to introduce external resources, such as water and oxygen (from electrolysis) from outside the colony.

I still think, though, that a space habitat mining resources from asteroids would be smarter and easier.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:A possible colony will not fail due to internal hostilities. The experiments have been done, putting people together for long periods, and people can adapt.

A Mars colony is quite possible, given some technological advances. It would need a small nuclear reactor for energy. It would need a water source, both for agriculture and to make oxygen, but we already know Mars has water. Soil for growing things can be made by mixing organic waste with ground up rock. Radiation free habitats can be made by digging tunnels. Manufacturing materials will be easier with the latest and greatest 3D printer designed in the year 2030. The failure of Biosphere 2 will not be relevant, since the Mars colony will be permitted to introduce external resources, such as water and oxygen (from electrolysis) from outside the colony.

I still think, though, that a space habitat mining resources from asteroids would be smarter and easier.
Gee.....if you had addressed the gravity issue and whatever other BIG issues exist, I can see it really would be a snap.

Why do we need a space habitat to mine asteroids? I would have thought, and do think,"ROBOTS IN SPACE" could just be shot to the various asteroids of interest?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:04 pm

Elsewhere I've been discussing ways to build up the atmosphere on Mars and bring in some water and heat in the process.

Assume everyone involved in competent.

A "mother ship" in orbit around Saturn sends out "pushers" to find chunks of ice in the rings of the right size. ("right size" to be determined, but not huge.) When one is found the pusher starts it on its way to Mars. The pushers get data from the mothership regarding thrust duration, etc., based on a preliminary push that "weighs" the berg based on delta vee from a standard impulse of the engines. This allows the pushers to be controlled by computers about as small as a cell phone. The berg heads off to Mars, and impacts on the side of the planet opposite Valles Marineris. VM is one of the "low spots" on Mars and would be one of the first places the atmosphere will start to collect an get denser. The impacts are arranged so that the colonists are well away from the hit. The benefit of the impact includes free oxygen, water and a little more heat in the atmosphere.

If conditions at Saturn are favorable a hundred pushers could send 100 bergs to Mars at a time. The amount of time needed to find the next candidate berg could be shortened by having "finders" who located candidate bergs and plant a signaling device on them.

One hundred bergs would be a minimum for a "day's work" for the pushers, but we might be able to get them up to six a day each. That would be 219,000 bergs a year, or 21,900,000 bergs in a century. I won't speculate on the amount of ice that would be.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:A possible colony will not fail due to internal hostilities. The experiments have been done, putting people together for long periods, and people can adapt.

A Mars colony is quite possible, given some technological advances. It would need a small nuclear reactor for energy. It would need a water source, both for agriculture and to make oxygen, but we already know Mars has water. Soil for growing things can be made by mixing organic waste with ground up rock. Radiation free habitats can be made by digging tunnels. Manufacturing materials will be easier with the latest and greatest 3D printer designed in the year 2030. The failure of Biosphere 2 will not be relevant, since the Mars colony will be permitted to introduce external resources, such as water and oxygen (from electrolysis) from outside the colony.

I still think, though, that a space habitat mining resources from asteroids would be smarter and easier.
Gee.....if you had addressed the gravity issue and whatever other BIG issues exist, I can see it really would be a snap.

Why do we need a space habitat to mine asteroids? I would have thought, and do think,"ROBOTS IN SPACE" could just be shot to the various asteroids of interest?
The main point is that there is no point.
There is no point to spending godly sums to attempt to colonize Mars. There's virtually nothing to be gained.
What's so difficult to understand about this?
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:37 pm

Another point is: this is a discussion forum.

I saw a show a few days ago that said its impossible to build an atmosphere on Mars for the same reason Mars lost its atmosphere to begin with: some combo of no magnetic shield and light gravity. Good enough for me.

but speaking of pushers....another show said that all the gold in Earth came from asteroids. I did not know that. …..and all the water from meteors??? Gee...Life on Earth looks more and more like a group effort.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:04 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Another point is: this is a discussion forum.

I saw a show a few days ago that said its impossible to build an atmosphere on Mars for the same reason Mars lost its atmosphere to begin with: some combo of no magnetic shield and light gravity. Good enough for me.

but speaking of pushers....another show said that all the gold in Earth came from asteroids. I did not know that. …..and all the water from meteors??? Gee...Life on Earth looks more and more like a group effort.
It took millions of years for the atmos to erode, perhaps a billion. And nobody was tending to it.

So we can put that point in the dust bin.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:07 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: It took millions of years for the atmos to erode, perhaps a billion. And nobody was tending to it.

So we can put that point in the dust bin.
Yeah....probably true. We just need a lot of ice...………………………...
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:12 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote: It took millions of years for the atmos to erode, perhaps a billion. And nobody was tending to it.

So we can put that point in the dust bin.
Yeah....probably true. We just need a lot of ice...………………………...
Image
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:14 pm

that looks like a lot of ice...………………………………..
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:that looks like a lot of ice...………………………………..
I'm sure that's a CGI image.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:04 am

Sure...……....its a cgi image of a lot of ice. That's what I said.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:39 am

Saturn's rings are a humongous distance from Mars. But there are numerous comets already headed near Mars. A small push to change the orbit and it crashes on Mars, both adding water and heating the planet. Over 100 years or so, numerous comets crash and Mars is both warmer and wetter.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:29 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Saturn's rings are a humongous distance from Mars. But there are numerous comets already headed near Mars. A small push to change the orbit and it crashes on Mars, both adding water and heating the planet. Over 100 years or so, numerous comets crash and Mars is both warmer and wetter.
Wow.
Actually Mars has abundant water under the surface, as the probes have found. Also, if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.

I am a bit stymied at this fixation to terraform Mars. As if there's not a lot of fixing we could do to our own planet. We inhabit less than 4% of our own planet, and because we aren't satisfied, we want to abandon it to live on another one which is in much worse shape. And moving there would basically destroy our existing economy back to the stone age.
It's the height of lunacy, or not far from it.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:47 pm

Making things builds the economy. In this case, making the technology to colonize Mars. The economy would increase, not decrease.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:53 pm

I'm making a list of people who will be left behind.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:23 pm

Shirley, the Republicans would require any mission to mars to be accomplished in the most expensive wasteful manner possible? So...shooting meteors of water to Mars that is full of water only makes sense.

I think the order of appreciation should be noted. First comes irresponsible, then crazy, then lunatic or lunacy depending on usage, then: Marstic or Marscy depending on usuage.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:49 pm

"You can't picture how it's done doesn't make it impossible."
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:50 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"I can't picture how it's done" doesn't make it impossible.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:49 pm

landrew wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Saturn's rings are a humongous distance from Mars. But there are numerous comets already headed near Mars. A small push to change the orbit and it crashes on Mars, both adding water and heating the planet. Over 100 years or so, numerous comets crash and Mars is both warmer and wetter.
Wow.
Actually Mars has abundant water under the surface, as the probes have found. Also, if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.

I am a bit stymied at this fixation to terraform Mars. As if there's not a lot of fixing we could do to our own planet. We inhabit less than 4% of our own planet, and because we aren't satisfied, we want to abandon it to live on another one which is in much worse shape. And moving there would basically destroy our existing economy back to the stone age.
It's the height of lunacy, or not far from it.
Wow - with that depth, we could create a whale sanctuary... :roll:

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by landrew » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:00 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"You can't picture how it's done doesn't make it impossible."
Nothing's impossible, but that doesn't mean you can afford it.
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:43 am

landrew wrote:
I am a bit stymied at this fixation to terraform Mars. As if there's not a lot of fixing we could do to our own planet. We inhabit less than 4% of our own planet, and because we aren't satisfied, we want to abandon it to live on another one which is in much worse shape. And moving there would basically destroy our existing economy back to the stone age.
It's the height of lunacy, or not far from it.

This is NOT an either/or.

We can do both. If that is the decision of those in power. Only a small part of Earth's GDP would be invested on Mars.

I still prefer mobile habitats in space. Easier to build and no fighting gravity wells, while being able to move.

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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gord » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:33 am

landrew wrote:...if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.
I can only approximate that answer if I solve for a perfectly spherical planet. :befuddled:
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:41 am

Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:...if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.
I can only approximate that answer if I solve for a perfectly spherical planet. :befuddled:
Isn't there one volcano that's 21,287.4 m high at the peak?
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TJrandom
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:12 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:...if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.
I can only approximate that answer if I solve for a perfectly spherical planet. :befuddled:
Isn't there one volcano that's 21,287.4 m high at the peak?
It`d be a real monster if it were 21,287.4 m high at the base... ;)

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Sorry Elon Musk, but colonising Mars is unlikely

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:31 am

TJrandom wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
landrew wrote:...if Mars' ice caps were to melt, the water would cover the entire planet to a depth of 60 feet.
I can only approximate that answer if I solve for a perfectly spherical planet. :befuddled:
Isn't there one volcano that's 21,287.4 m high at the peak?
It`d be a real monster if it were 21,287.4 m high at the base... ;)
A bit judgy, aren't you? How do you know it would be a monster? It could be just a big jolly volcano that happens to be {!#%@} insanely high. Have you ever considered that? Noooo, Judgy-san, you haven't!!!!
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.