Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:18 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:We're having different conversations together.
Kind of like someone trying to give directions through Manhattan to a person who only has a map of Detroit. :mrgreen:

American GI in Delhi: "Excuse me, do you speak English?"

Sikh police officer: "Yes, and I understand American."
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:19 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:The straight progression (two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents) would lead us to the mistaken conclusion that the population of the entire Earth 2,000 years ago exceeded today's population.

Thats very polite. Ever think about running for President?
Well, that's a great question, bobbo, and an important one. It's a question we all should be asking ourselves. And it deserves a thoughtful answer, an open and honest answer that fully addresses the question, yet is succinct and to the point. That's the kind of answer that should be given for every question, and it's the kind of answer I intend to provide. I hope I've fully addressed your concerns, and thank you for your question. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:35 pm

Ha, ha.................well done. But may I suggest, seeing it in myself: too much tv news? ((I do think it is toxic. I think I hit rock bottom and have risen slightly off the floor. Took awhile.....miles to go.))
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:
GS suggested Aboriginals arrived in Australia some 50,000 years ago. I do have a bit of a question about this supposition. I read a book I found in our local library called "Ulu". The Ulu where allegedly a race that populated Australia before the Aboriginals. I have tried to find links and references on the internet to support this work, but to no avail. I must get the book again, and try to research the references therein contained. I must admit that the photographic evidence included in the book, and there is a large quantity, is quite compelling.

Okay, so there were possibly people there before the aboriginals. (And you seem to have done a good job showing there's no evidence for that.) Does that mean the aboriginals arrived 49,999 years ago instead of 50,000 or what?


No GS, it does not mean one year difference. If you can prove one year difference, then I will give you a medal. All I'm saying is that there is a theory put forth by another researcher that suggests there was a race of people in Australia before the Aboriginal tribe.

The definition of Aboriginal, according to various Mr. Google definitions, is "Original Inhabitant".

Now my argument is simply, were the Aboriginals actually the first inhabitants of Australia? The person who wrote the book "Ulu" that I mentioned, appears to believe there were others before them.

GS, in my first post I suggested that the Aboriginals were not the original as they claim. I also said that I could not prove these claims. My post simply seeks alternate views on the subject. If I can find causation, I will be the first to disclose such. Otherwise I will accept that as at this point in time, there appears to be some association. Early days GS. We cannot at this time, accept causation or even association. It is a work in progress.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Phoenix76 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:49 am

Ah Bobbo, what will we ever do with you? Perhaps you should take on The Donald???

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:24 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:
GS suggested Aboriginals arrived in Australia some 50,000 years ago. I do have a bit of a question about this supposition. I read a book I found in our local library called "Ulu". The Ulu where allegedly a race that populated Australia before the Aboriginals. I have tried to find links and references on the internet to support this work, but to no avail. I must get the book again, and try to research the references therein contained. I must admit that the photographic evidence included in the book, and there is a large quantity, is quite compelling.

Okay, so there were possibly people there before the aboriginals. (And you seem to have done a good job showing there's no evidence for that.) Does that mean the aboriginals arrived 49,999 years ago instead of 50,000 or what?


No GS, it does not mean one year difference. If you can prove one year difference, then I will give you a medal. All I'm saying is that there is a theory put forth by another researcher that suggests there was a race of people in Australia before the Aboriginal tribe.

The definition of Aboriginal, according to various Mr. Google definitions, is "Original Inhabitant".

Now my argument is simply, were the Aboriginals actually the first inhabitants of Australia? The person who wrote the book "Ulu" that I mentioned, appears to believe there were others before them.

GS, in my first post I suggested that the Aboriginals were not the original as they claim. I also said that I could not prove these claims. My post simply seeks alternate views on the subject. If I can find causation, I will be the first to disclose such. Otherwise I will accept that as at this point in time, there appears to be some association. Early days GS. We cannot at this time, accept causation or even association. It is a work in progress.

Okay, so why the hysteria?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Ah Bobbo, what will we ever do with you? Perhaps you should take on The Donald???

I wouldn't stand a chance. He's got the secret service...........last time I checked.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:59 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:GS suggested Aboriginals arrived in Australia some 50,000 years ago. I do have a bit of a question about this supposition. I read a book I found in our local library called "Ulu". The Ulu where allegedly a race that populated Australia before the Aboriginals.
I think the question you are exploring is : Are the aborigines here today, the same genetic population that arrived here 50,000 years ago? If they aren't, then there is going to be a political explosion concerning land rights, and claims for the current mob and no one wants that.

A 150-Year Conundrum: Cranial Robusticity and Its Bearing on the Origin of Aboriginal Australians
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/632484/

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:03 pm

Beware single-sourcing anything.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:10 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Beware single-sourcing anything.
I measured very early aboriginal cranial crests at university, when studying anthropological prehistory. It was like Oscar Wilde's "love that could not be mentioned". You simply could not openly hypothesise that the later lot of aborigines killed off the first lot and were different ethnic groups.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:14 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:You simply could not openly hypothesise that the later lot of aborigines killed off the first lot and were different ethnic groups. [/color]

Really? I would think thats exactly what anthropology would teach anyone studying it? Thats the history of mankind in recorded history.......why would it not being recorded make a difference?

Did you go with the flow, or go all Matthew on them?

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Beware single-sourcing anything.
I measured very early aboriginal cranial crests at university, when studying anthropological prehistory. It was like Oscar Wilde's "love that could not be mentioned". You simply could not openly hypothesise that the later lot of aborigines killed off the first lot and were different ethnic groups.

Why killed off. We have no evidence that the GOP was ever there to roil the waters.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:GS suggested Aboriginals arrived in Australia some 50,000 years ago. I do have a bit of a question about this supposition. I read a book I found in our local library called "Ulu". The Ulu where allegedly a race that populated Australia before the Aboriginals.
I think the question you are exploring is : Are the aborigines here today, the same genetic population that arrived here 50,000 years ago? If they aren't, then there is going to be a political explosion concerning land rights, and claims for the current mob and no one wants that.

A 150-Year Conundrum: Cranial Robusticity and Its Bearing on the Origin of Aboriginal Australians
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/632484/


Yes Mat, a very politically charged thought. And as for no one wanting "that", I'm not so sure. IMHO, the whole Aboriginal politic in Australia, stinks. If you can prove the slightest link to an Aboriginal forbear, and yourself accept that recognisation, then you seem to be able to claim all the same benefits. Don't get me wrong, I have aboriginal friends, and there are some very good people who identify as aboriginal. But by the same token, there are some that do no more than lower their standing in the community.

I will read your link with interest, and chase up my own source again and look for the references there.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Did you go with the flow, or go all Matthew on them?
The Iranian Revolution prevented me doing a dig in Iran, so I was sent to England to finish my studies there. I wasn't interested in Aborigines but rather early humans, so this was a good thing.

There were already riots going on in Sydney uni when I left because a foreign bloke called "Isink" ( from memory) who was claiming blacks were less intelligent than whites. The environment was toxic in Australia for a university to be exploring a concept that Australia had been settled numerous times. (This was pre-genetic mapping and we now know the current lot of aborigines are related to Indians, which makes a lot of sense considering Indonesia ("The spice islands") as was Hindu and full of Indians. ) Additionally we also now know Homo Habilis made it to Indonesia, so it is not implausible that Australia was settled numerous times.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:50 am

Phoenix76 wrote: Yes Mat, a very politically charged thought. And as for no one wanting "that", I'm not so sure.
I'm talking way back in the late 1970s. About fifteen years later I was contracting to DFAT's foreign propaganda version of the Australia Council (I was doing entertainment accounting for movies and TV) and I really had to keep my mouth shut and be politically correct. I needed the work. :D

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Phoenix76 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:18 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote: Yes Mat, a very politically charged thought. And as for no one wanting "that", I'm not so sure.
I'm talking way back in the late 1970s. About fifteen years later I was contracting to DFAT's foreign propaganda version of the Australia Council (I was doing entertainment accounting for movies and TV) and I really had to keep my mouth shut and be politically correct. I needed the work. :D


Point well taken Mat.

But it is a very interesting topic, and I believe that many people who are sick to death of all the Aboriginal's carryon, would love to see that they were not the original aboriginal (sounds like the words to a song). Anyway another interesting project to play with.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:39 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha.................well done. But may I suggest, seeing it in myself: too much tv news? ((I do think it is toxic. I think I hit rock bottom and have risen slightly off the floor. Took awhile.....miles to go.))
I don't watch TV news, other than to see who's supporting which viewpoint. My daughter always puts on Maddow and O'Donnell, so I'm forced to listen to some of it. Surprisingly, she actually turned off The Daily Show the other night, angrily exclaiming, "Dude, I'm so tired of your neoliberal BS and virtue signaling." We both miss Jon Stewart. (And we miss The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore. Truly awesome show. No idea why it got cut. Mike Yard's conspiracy theories were epic.)
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:42 pm

Phoenix76 wrote: I believe that many people who are sick to death of all the Aboriginal's carryon.


It gets weirder. ATSIC is for Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders. I was preparing accounts for another firm to audit for Koorie Radio ( A Sydney aboriginal radio service funded by ATSIC) that wanted a 24/7 broadcast license. I pointed out they didn't have enough music to fill the airtime. They simply extended their scope to any other indigenous music, like Eskimos. When I suggested they contact the Torres Straight Island cultural centre to see if there were Torres Straight Island music catalogues, they said they weren't interested. I wrote a damning report and quit.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:07 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha.................well done. But may I suggest, seeing it in myself: too much tv news? ((I do think it is toxic. I think I hit rock bottom and have risen slightly off the floor. Took awhile.....miles to go.))
I don't watch TV news, other than to see who's supporting which viewpoint. My daughter always puts on Maddow and O'Donnell, so I'm forced to listen to some of it. Surprisingly, she actually turned off The Daily Show the other night, angrily exclaiming, "Dude, I'm so tired of your neoliberal BS and virtue signaling." We both miss Jon Stewart. (And we miss The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore. Truly awesome show. No idea why it got cut. Mike Yard's conspiracy theories were epic.)

I watch them all....but usually while doing something else at the same time. Does get repetitive and I stop or fast forward. Actually I never watch live broadcast....always from the DVR.
Maddow: best show on tv right now. Love her intro History and Context lessons.
O'Donnell: like his perspective as being an insider to the process
I also miss the passing of Stewart and Wilmore. I watch most of the guest segments w Trevor Noah except those with actors.
Reruns of Dick Cavett are uniformly interesting. Why isn't Firing Line shown on some channel? I watched them as a kiddie and thought Buckley needed to be taken down a notch but still impressed by his skills.

There is "so much" on tv. Choose what you watch, and its a continuing education. Just got thru watching the 90 min bio on Ruth Gruber on PBS. Never heard of her before and she was wonderful. Quite a story. I've never read Virginia Wolf who was admired and recommended by Ruth Gruber. Another set of books on my to read list. Besides the History she was eyewitness to, I found it interesting how often Men in her (work) life were helpful modern liberal feminists vs the seeming fewer but still important men who were conservative anti-female. Her talents overcame the obstacles......as we all have to learn.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Phoenix76 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:25 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote: I believe that many people who are sick to death of all the Aboriginal's carryon.


It gets weirder. ATSIC is for Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders. I was preparing accounts for another firm to audit for Koorie Radio ( A Sydney aboriginal radio service funded by ATSIC) that wanted a 24/7 broadcast license. I pointed out they didn't have enough music to fill the airtime. They simply extended their scope to any other indigenous music, like Eskimos. When I suggested they contact the Torres Straight Island cultural centre to see if there were Torres Straight Island music catalogues, they said they weren't interested. I wrote a damning report and quit.


Yes I think picked the correct word - weirder! They believe they are a law unto themselves as evidenced by their comment - not interested. simply they believe THEY are the law and will do what they please. And nobody has the right to tell them to do differently. They own the place! Well that's their take on it.

Their continual claim of "invasion" is the first load of crap. They were never invaded. sure there were some conflicts down the line, but neither Cook nor the first fleet settlers stormed ashore with muskets blazing. Did. Not. Happen. In fact the aboriginals of the day were generally quite welcoming.

Go one further, the stolen generation. Yeah right! The aboriginals, by and large, offered their children up to white care, believing they would be better looked after, and to remove the impost of child rearing from their own backs.

No, a lot of mis-truths are put up as argument for more assistance to the aboriginal. Unfortunately, a lot gets lost in time. No doubt that injustices happened, murder, child stealing, almost forced labour, wages withheld by former governments or other organisations of the day.

But we must also take account of the beliefs, and lack of education, 200+ years ago. White man's beliefs, helped along no doubt by a very narrow minded church of the time, were very different than today. To quote a more recent example of church influence on our thinking, I remind you of our near recent State Premier, Joh Bielke-Peterson, who openly declared that the aboriginals were the cause of A.I.D.S., brought on by their sinful living. He refused to do anything to help them at all. Joh was a devout Lutheran.

Yet the same Lutheran church, or at least some of its Pastors, risked life and limb to look after the Diri Aboriginal of Central Australia. They built a church come living place out in the southern Simpson Desert, now called, Kalamurina and Cowarie, a right turn (heading south) off the Birdsville Track at Mungeranie for about 55-60 km. Built on a sand dune overlooking a depression between dunes, that just happened to fill with water after a good wet when the Warburton River flooded. When we were there it was a dry as a ....

So there are many stories, both true and false, that can cloud today's judgements. My wife and I spent many months exploring our out back, earlier in a marriage. And when our boys were born they came with us. Our eldest boy had his first birthday in the outback. But me being me, forensic if you wish, I always looked for, and bought, books that gave a good history of the places we went. So my interest in this subject, "Shout out to all my Cousins", and the misrepresentation of history that we hear today.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 am

Of course whites invaded Australia. You are correct it was not of the type you set forth. Thats not the only type.

I am "against' native rights of any kind. They lost...get over it. The only way forward, is.................FORWARD. All the problems experienced by natives today are based on them not integrating into the general society.

Its not what they want............but who gets that?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:All the problems experienced by natives today are based on them not integrating into the general society.
I have to disagree, Bobbo. Historically, Americans have shunned ethnic minorities. They don't want them to integrate; they want them gone...usually right after their own group has been 'accepted.'

The US government has been particularly hard on the native population. Retaining your cultural heritage is perfectly fine...if you're white. St. Patrick's Day parades, Polish-American clubs, Italian-American festivals, and the like. But to the native population, the response is apathy toward sacred lands and customs.

Surely, you don't believe that Canada's residential schools were the fault of natives not wishing to integrate?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 pm

Nikki: thanks for the disagreement ( :wgrin: )

I have to disagree, Bobbo. Historically, Americans have shunned ethnic minorities. They don't want them to integrate; they want them gone...usually right after their own group has been 'accepted.'
......and yet ALL ethnic minorities have variously integrated EXCEPT the Native Americans ............those who choose to live on the reservations. Those who get off the reservation go on to lead fine integrated lives even becoming Senators and such.

The US government has been particularly hard on the native population.
You mean we invaded and took over their lands? Something not done to all other population groups........yes. We should simply recognize that Nation Building process and not allow anachronistic exceptions as hold overs. To wit: the peace treaties were a sham, we suckered you into them. We won, you lost==>get over it. Now, join the melting pot and have the best life you can AS AN AMERICAN.....in America. Not some forlorn BS reservation. JUST NOTED: We did not invade England, or Ireland, or Germany....hence, we were particulary hard on the Native Population just as you say.........but.....we invaded Mexico and seized their lands. How come no reservations for Mexicans?..........and aren't Mexicans fully integrated into our society. Very telling objective difference.


Retaining your cultural heritage is perfectly fine...if you're white. St. Patrick's Day parades, Polish-American clubs, Italian-American festivals, and the like.
No...retaining your cultural heritage is perfectly fine FOR EVERYONE. No one can stop you from doing it.............UNTIL.... the actual issue is run into which is AGAIN: all about reservations. Evidently, you haven't traveled much in the West? Lots of "Indian Day" parades and what not.


But to the native population, the response is apathy toward sacred lands and customs.
You say apathy, I say reasonable HOSTILITY. Sound harsh, but "just look." Identify the specific issue regarding sacred lands and customs. I assume in each case the Natives want to act or have prerogatives that are denied/illegal/criminal for everyone else. You end discrimination..........by not doing it. "It" is a two way street.

Surely, you don't believe that Canada's residential schools were the fault of natives not wishing to integrate?
Hah, hah.....Good Example. Canada went out of their way to integrate the Natives, and for those Natives who did not wish to integrate....fine.....go your own way.....but now: stop whining that we don't respect your culture because the fact is: No one does. This goes back to its not their "culture" per se that is disrespected but rather using "their culture" as the justification to demand those extra prerogatives.

From 15 different perspectives: Reservations Don't Work and do more damage to the actual people involved. Its not realistic to draw lines on a map and say within these borders, we will pretend we live in a pre-Columbian world....except for the good stuff we want to have from the outside. Its down right silly........as hoomans so often are.

If "I" were an Indian living in a dirt poor reservation with no jobs and no healthcare etc but I was allowed to fish year round without getting a license...................I would pack up and go to any city and get a menial job and hope for a better life for my kiddies. Just like all the non native did.

Ain't reality a Bitch?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:45 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki: thanks for the disagreement ( :wgrin: )
:mrgreen:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:I have to disagree, Bobbo. Historically, Americans have shunned ethnic minorities. They don't want them to integrate; they want them gone...usually right after their own group has been 'accepted.'
......and yet ALL ethnic minorities have variously integrated EXCEPT the Native Americans ............those who choose to live on the reservations. Those who get off the reservation go on to lead fine integrated lives even becoming Senators and such.
Yes and no. Many ethnic groups have their own neighborhoods, clubs, shops, etc. My Slovak ancestors all bought houses in the same neighborhood, built their own club (The Slovak Hall), built their own church (which looks exactly like the church in the Slovak town they came from), and had their own grocery store. Until my mother's generation, nearly all of them married within their ethnic group. My great-grandmother died in 1980, and she still didn't speak much English.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Retaining your cultural heritage is perfectly fine...if you're white. St. Patrick's Day parades, Polish-American clubs, Italian-American festivals, and the like.
No...retaining your cultural heritage is perfectly fine FOR EVERYONE. No one can stop you from doing it.............UNTIL.... the actual issue is run into which is AGAIN: all about reservations. Evidently, you haven't traveled much in the West? Lots of "Indian Day" parades and what not.
Yet listen to the perpetual bitching every time it's Black History Month.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:But to the native population, the response is apathy toward sacred lands and customs.
You say apathy, I say reasonable HOSTILITY. Sound harsh, but "just look." Identify the specific issue regarding sacred lands and customs. I assume in each case the Natives want to act or have prerogatives that are denied/illegal/criminal for everyone else. You end discrimination..........by not doing it. "It" is a two way street.
Your assumption is incorrect. Consider Standing Rock.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Surely, you don't believe that Canada's residential schools were the fault of natives not wishing to integrate?
Hah, hah.....Good Example. Canada went out of their way to integrate the Natives, and for those Natives who did not wish to integrate....fine.....go your own way.....but now: stop whining that we don't respect your culture because the fact is: No one does. This goes back to its not their "culture" per se that is disrespected but rather using "their culture" as the justification to demand those extra prerogatives.
"Canada went out of their way..." Wow, dude. You need to do some research if you believe Canada developed those schools for the benefit of the native population.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:52 pm

Nikki: my view: you kinda skimmed the subject. No real counterpoint.

1. Ethnic enclaves. Nothing wrong with them, make nice tourist spots to the irritation of those good Americans. Can you give me a number past 1% of the number of ethnics living in those communities compared to those who have more fully integrated? And of that <1%, I'll bet most of them have a foot or more into the outside community. AKA: no refutation.

2. Black History Month. Integration isn't without its detractors. AKA: no refutation.

3. Standing Rock. That is exactly what I'm talking about. They were trying to change the location of underground oil pipelines that were not even on their property. While I happen to agree with them as social policy, I don't think their demand for special outcome based on what they consider to be "sacred" should carry any more weight than anyone else concerned for the environment. Or do you mean something else? so far: no refutation.

4. Canada Schools. Doesn't matter what their intent was......and i'm sure it was not all one thing or the opposite thing. The FACT IS, those schools would integrate the students who matriculated through them giving them a much better chance for integration and personal success and achievement. There is nothing wrong with targeting a culture for its elimination.....the end result is the same if it is accomplished by any other method/intent. The alternative would have been what? Leave them alone on their reservation so they were incapable of leaving it? Not very humanistic in my view. Or...I suppose the bleeding heart liberal position would be to spend Canadian Money to teach the kiddies how to be full blown welfare recipients on their reservations honoring their indian ways? What is the benefit TO CANADA in either of those approaches.

Its cultural warfare and cultures can expand or die and it doesn't make any difference in any meaningful way. What does make the difference is the life of the people who are alive, and even more important: their kiddies. You can make your cultural emphasis the past or the future. Reservations are the past, integration is the future. The past is unsupportable except by charity support from the general population....why do that when all native could be and should be part of the general society, whether in enclaves or not but fully/99% integrated.

In the end, its FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM that is desired. That means: do what you want to do, but leave other people alone. That means.....don't expect a welfare check from them if you want to be free. If you can't maintain your choices without outside help, then your desires are unrealistic.

Ain't reality a Bitch?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:4. Canada Schools. Doesn't matter what their intent was......and i'm sure it was not all one thing or the opposite thing. The FACT IS, those schools would integrate the students who matriculated through them giving them a much better chance for integration and personal success and achievement.


The schools broke up families, seriously impeded Native language skills, denigrated and disrupted cultural practices; all while providing an inferior 'education' that integrated no one into mainstream cultures. The only Native people I know who 'integrated' did so living in larger towns and cities where they could and did access the regular public school system (The public school system didn't and doesn't give a {!#%@} what language you speak at home, nor your cultural practices there.) Some of them moved back to their reserves later. Since the SCOC has upheld 19 th century treaties, more opportunities for industrial and social development have arisen.

The residential school system has a legacy of a broken people, with alcoholism, antisocialism, and a subculture of defeatism, apathy, and criminality.

There is nothing wrong with targeting a culture for its elimination.....the end result is the same if it is accomplished by any other method/intent.


Leave them alone on their reservation so they were incapable of leaving it?

WOW! What the {!#%@} gives YOU the right to judge an entire people as incapable of looking after their own affairs! There is indeed a culture that needs elimination, and it is yours. By your own words, any means for doing so is justified.

I lived for 6 years in Port Hardy, near the northern tip of Vancouver Island. It was an isolated community when I went there (meaning that there were no public roads. Only private roads controlled by logging companies). There are two reservations. One, a village at Fort Rupert, has been there continuously for 5000 years at least, based on archaeology. They were educated, self sufficient, and wealthy at the lower middle class level. There were no residential schools built there, so the kids went to public schools.

The other reserve was created by the government and populated with people from various other villages, mostly from islands between Port Hardy and Prince Rupert, and from the mainland opposite. They broke up families, ignored tribal affiliations, and asked no one's permission. I know nothing of previous education before they were sent there. In PH they went to public schools if they went at all.
Alcoholism, welfare, dependency, poverty, apathy, rage at the machine (and whitey of course) etc. and so on. The older women tried hard to make it a community, but, when I left, they had had little success.

Not very humanistic in my view. Or...I suppose the bleeding heart liberal position would be to spend Canadian Money to teach the kiddies how to be full blown welfare recipients on their reservations honoring their indian ways? What is the benefit TO CANADA in either of those approaches.

This is what disrespect teaches. Where Native populations were treated with respect, they have flourished.

Money was spent to teach the Natives how to have a broken culture constantly needed support from the rest of the population. They made the same mistake you are making, and look at the result.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:12 am

Oleg, I welcome your disagreement.

I don't know about the Canadian effort to school the tribal kiddies. I hope it is not as bad as you portray...but can accept it was just that bad in general, or just here and there. Here we are, without the relevant facts. If some of the kiddies benefited from the process COMPARED TO WHATEVER THE ALTERNATIVE WAS.....then, its just an argument as to how much good vs how much bad occurred.....I assume it was not 100% one way or the other. Do you know what the alternative was? If the alternative was to leave them on the reservation to grow up ignorant (aka highly steeped in their cultural traditions), then that would justify all kinds of "bad" western schooling and acculturation.

we could/should go at this one idea/sentence at a time to see where agreement might be struck. Too long. So I'll just take the first sentence.

The schools broke up families,
I'm against that. I assume the families reunited often whether the gubment wanted it or not? Sadly, government programs do tend to get heavy handed....and we can assume the worst of governments from times back?

seriously impeded Native language skills,
You mean by teaching them English, and not being on the reservation, they failed to learn their native language? In the bigger scheme of things, I think that is a good outcome.

..denigrated and disrupted cultural practices; .
Denigration is not appropriate except by way of showing superior Candadian practices. Disrupting is what education does....what integration does.

...all while providing an inferior 'education' that integrated no one into mainstream cultures.
Ah, well, there is the linchpin. A program is to be judge by how it achieves its goals.

I assume there is a lot of disconnect between us on the above, but enough head to head understood disagreement as well. Here is my goal: its in my signature: The most good for the most people. People AS INDIVIDUALS....not to be sacrificed to some notion of cultural heritage which in my book is mostly ignorance and the default position of people who don't know any better. YES......this is cultural elitism. Note: not even "my" cultural elitism...but rather the culture of the majority/general society....not the culture of a basically invaded and defeated native peoples whose Culture failed to survive on its own at the time of conquest. Its a value statement.....but its based on pragmatism. Its based on maximizing the outcome for individuals and not some idea about a culture that has lost its way.

Was there, is there always, lots of heartache? Of course........thats what being invaded and losing your country is all about. "I believe" less harm is done if the truth of the situation is fully grasped, and all those involved, move on. Reservations are cultures trapped in amber. Silly to try to keep them going.........why? And this isn't about Indians. Its the same all over the world with any defeated group. Take the Welsh. Some tiny group wants to save their language..... because we all need a 30 letter name of a town to take tourist pictures of. Its like studying Klingon. If that is your thing...do it. but don't cry when you can't get a job---knowing nothing else. The world ain't Klingon.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:25 am

I'm open to discussion..........thing is..........while I've thought about this issue over time, I've never really had a discussion/argument/exchange over it. Within the values I want to promote, I'm flexible.

My values: the most good for the most people. This is inconsistent with keeping dead cultural interests afloat.

As with a previous discussion among others, lots of confusion if we don't set a time hack. Tribal schools are from times past....I don't know anything about them........doubt anyone else does either.

Another telling element: comparing whatever "evils" want to be highlight to some perfect ideal rather than the actual alternatives available at the time. What was the alternative to tribal schools?...........I assume, but open to an alternative, that the kiddies either went to the Triabal Schools set up, or they grew up without any "formal" education. Illiterate. That is a CULTURAL CLASH. I've argued cultural clashes alot.

Todays world: I say the reservations are past time to be done away with. In their day....they were useful to stop the killing of those involved. A treaty and reservations "saved face" and allowed people a bit of respite before War and Genocide started all over again. If we want a united culture with all people being treated equally and having equal opportunity for success...................its time to get rid of reservations. How long into the future are reservations supposed to be tolerated???? Various different ways to end them. Basically: give each tribal member an equal share in the property as a whole and proceed like any other land holdings/citizens from that point on. Everyone: treated the same..........the founding principle of our country.......still to be fully implemented.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...
seriously impeded Native language skills,
You mean by teaching them English, and not being on the reservation, they failed to learn their native language? In the bigger scheme of things, I think that is a good outcome. ...


In the US, I have seen children punished by `educators` for speaking their native language with their parents. I don`t see how not learning a language can be a good outcome. Not learning how to hate, kill, rape - OK I`d agree, good not to have learned these, but learning any other knowledge or skill that doesn`t harm others certainly is good - even if it is a native language.

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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:51 am

TJ--I would never discourage kiddies learning as much as they can AND having good relations with their parents. Time and place for speaking your parents tongue, and a time and place to learn a new language.

Lots of stupid people in the world...........Ha, ha............you can find a lot of them (trying to) "living" on reservations. A lot of other stupid people thinking living on a reservation is a good idea and should be protected.............even though, they would never choose such a life for themselves. What is that?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nikki: my view: you kinda skimmed the subject. No real counterpoint.

1. Ethnic enclaves. Nothing wrong with them, make nice tourist spots to the irritation of those good Americans. Can you give me a number past 1% of the number of ethnics living in those communities compared to those who have more fully integrated? And of that <1%, I'll bet most of them have a foot or more into the outside community. AKA: no refutation.
Yes, refutation, because eventually these ethnic enclaves were able to integrate, because they were white. The enclaves still exist for African and Latino Americans...and for natives.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. Black History Month. Integration isn't without its detractors. AKA: no refutation.
Again, no one complains about the celebration of St. Patrick's Day. "Why do they get a special day while my white ethnic group doesn't?" Yeah, you don't hear that. But when it's Black History Month, idiots complain there's no White History Month.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:3. Standing Rock. That is exactly what I'm talking about. They were trying to change the location of underground oil pipelines that were not even on their property. While I happen to agree with them as social policy, I don't think their demand for special outcome based on what they consider to be "sacred" should carry any more weight than anyone else concerned for the environment. Or do you mean something else? so far: no refutation.
Again, you've missed the nuance. They protested because the pipelines endangered their water supply, a fact the government finally agreed with...then ignored.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:4. Canada Schools. Doesn't matter what their intent was......and i'm sure it was not all one thing or the opposite thing. The FACT IS, those schools would integrate the students who matriculated through them giving them a much better chance for integration and personal success and achievement.
Have you ever read the accounts of natives who were incarcerated in those schools? You should.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its cultural warfare and cultures can expand or die and it doesn't make any difference in any meaningful way.
It does to the people whose cultures are being snuffed out.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:28 pm

Nikki:

1. We agree then: EVENTUALLY. So like an american to want everything instantly. But life is not like porridge. Several Dithers: White Mormons were never accepted....they got kicked out of the 2-3 enclaves they had and had to move West to escape the scrutiny ON THE CULTURE they wanted to maintain. Culture: not skin color===although this thread has nothing to do with skin color which brings us to Natives. You post as if not being fully integrated into society is a bad thing. We Agree. Natives have not assimilated because more than set up their own enclave, said enclave was set into treaties. Its the treaties making enclaves/reservations that have kept Natives from integrating. Same all over the world. Identify a group of people as "other" and you have all kinds of consequential problems.

2. Your ethnic group obviously didn't have the group solidarity, and most likely NUMBERS, of people to pull it off. Probably lack of interest mostly BECAUSE.....they had more completely assimilated before the concept of racial privilege/identity took firmer hold. You should be happy of this result. Your own life is better==>I assume.

3. The nuance was addressed head on. I said I agreed with them on the issue....not their justification.

4. Tribal Schools. Already said I don't know much about them. Books from individuals? You mean they could read and write? So, the schools weren't total failures. I have in mind but haven't been able to make the parallel to Irish Catholic Homes for the Indigent Kiddies. Evidently, they were horrible places with lots of books written about the intolerance dished out there. Kinda means at least that some 200 years ago government agencies especially those infused with religion or some other mania didn't treat their charges very well. But we are back to WHAT WAS THE ALTERNATIVE? Do we want kiddies/natives growing up wild in the streets/reservations or at least teach them how to read so that maybe X % can make their way in this world? Pros and Cons to all we do....even back when.

5. Of course it matters to people who get wiped out. They lose. All social issues are like that. But why should that minority interest (I think Lance was referring to the number of rape victims of that age...invalidly as if 46% don't matter if 54% is otherwise..........kinda the same argument I make here except the minority % is much smaller==Hah, hah...am my context is not invalid as shown outside the parens. Lots of Natives in total, but each local tribe/reservation much smaller) outweigh the majority interest that feels otherwise? Lots of subgroups there too. The different context is that no one chooses to get raped whereas identifying oneself as your racial heritage is totally voluntary. You don't choose your racial heritage, but you do choose what you do with it.

In conclusion: this is how Nations are built...all over the World, all through time. Somehow in more modern times, the process has gotten hung up on a notion of "fairness" or "inherent rights" or honoring treaties or whatever the various interests are. They don't work..................as we can see IF WE:

JUST LOOK.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gord » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:48 am

TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...
seriously impeded Native language skills,
You mean by teaching them English, and not being on the reservation, they failed to learn their native language? In the bigger scheme of things, I think that is a good outcome. ...

In the US, I have seen children punished by `educators` for speaking their native language with their parents.

That's how it was in Canada, too. It was a horrible secularisation of the religious intolerance toward "the heathen".
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:38 am

Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...
seriously impeded Native language skills,
You mean by teaching them English, and not being on the reservation, they failed to learn their native language? In the bigger scheme of things, I think that is a good outcome. ...

In the US, I have seen children punished by `educators` for speaking their native language with their parents.

That's how it was in Canada, too. It was a horrible secularisation of the religious intolerance toward "the heathen".

Well.......all things considered, being secular would be a good thing, or did they just fail at that task?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gord » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...
seriously impeded Native language skills,
You mean by teaching them English, and not being on the reservation, they failed to learn their native language? In the bigger scheme of things, I think that is a good outcome. ...

In the US, I have seen children punished by `educators` for speaking their native language with their parents.

That's how it was in Canada, too. It was a horrible secularisation of the religious intolerance toward "the heathen".

Well.......all things considered, being secular would be a good thing, or did they just fail at that task?

Secularising bad behaviour is not a good thing. I mean, that's just by definition of the words "bad" and "good", so I guess you could argue it's just semantics, but...y'know.

Bad.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:03 am

Gord: its not semantics at all. Bad is bad. Its my bias that a secular bad is better than the same bad being religious as religion seems to have a more tenacious hold on people.

...........I could be wrong, as bad is bad. maybe this is semantics if the secular and religious are both bad, but secular bad is not as bad because it (should be) easier to cure/stop?

My bias towards being anti-religion, often gets in my way. That devolves to the same good vs bad, bad vs bad dynamic.

Edit: ............. :D
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gord » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:22 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gord: its not semantics at all.

Yes it is. I said, "Secularising bad behaviour is not a good thing." I've predefined them as bad and good.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:26 am

Ha, ha........is that semantics or definitional?
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:30 am

semantics: The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text
definitional: A concise explanation of the meaning of a word, phrase or symbol

Interesting...even the shortest of definitions shows semantics to take in a broader context than the concise definition. Semantics applies to whole sentences (and I assume symbols as well?) whereas definitions are more limited.

"securlarization of bad"==>thats a phrase.........back to square one.
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Re: Shout out to all my cousins (a.k.a. the human race)...

Postby Gord » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 am

Yes. Semantics.
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