Minimal life of Mars?

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Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue May 16, 2017 8:21 pm

The atmosphere on Mars is rich in carbon monoxide, according to 13 May issue of New Scientist. Here on Earth this gas is a source of energy (hence food) for bacteria, by oxidising it to CO2. If bacteria were present on Mars, we would expect them to consume this lovely food source, and reduce it to a tiny fraction of what it is. But they have not.

The conclusion is that life on Mars is very, very scarce, or non existent.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 16, 2017 9:29 pm

Unless they were dormant due to the severe cold. We've had bacteria that survived on the Moon for years.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue May 16, 2017 9:34 pm

Hmmm

Dormant, you say?

To see an entire atmosphere, even a thin one, build up that much carbon monoxide, would require dormancy of millions of years.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 16, 2017 9:50 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Hmmm

Dormant, you say?

To see an entire atmosphere, even a thin one, build up that much carbon monoxide, would require dormancy of millions of years.

And the Solar system is how old?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby gorgeous » Tue May 16, 2017 10:02 pm

monuments on mars...related to monuments on earth...no accident.... https://youtu.be/qSoIzF6a1no
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby gorgeous » Tue May 16, 2017 10:15 pm

mars remote viewed ...beings were there https://youtu.be/HlLq7KDU2HY
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 16, 2017 10:16 pm

You know, you don't have to proof how asinine you are at every possible occasion. We already know that.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue May 16, 2017 10:20 pm

Not all terrestrial bacteria oxidize CO. How do we know that Martian ones do?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby gorgeous » Tue May 16, 2017 10:22 pm

I have given all the prove you need about Mars life being real....
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 16, 2017 10:46 pm

gorgeous wrote:I have given all the prove you need about Mars life being real....

I.e., "none". Are those dingleberries around your mouth or are you just glad to see me?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue May 16, 2017 11:09 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:Not all terrestrial bacteria oxidize CO. How do we know that Martian ones do?


Fair point, Oleg. This observation is not PROOF that Mars lacks life, but it is nevertheless EVIDENCE.

Life does not exist in solitary splendour. Life evolves into many forms, and evolves to occupy many niches. If life was abundant on Mars, we would expect at least some to adapt to making use of such an attractive energy source. Sure, this is not a certainty, but it is strongly indicative.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 16, 2017 11:50 pm

gorgeous wrote:mars remote viewed ...beings were there by Joe McMoneagle
You really are a total idiot. You have posted a "remote viewing" video by Joe McMoneagle and forgotten his conclusion.

"According to McMoneagle, humans came from creatures somewhat like sea otters rather than primates and were created in a laboratory by creators who "seeded" the earth and then departed"

The Ultimate Time Machine: A Remote Viewer's Perception of Time and Predictions for the New Millennium by Joseph McMoneagle, Hampton Roads Publishing Co., Inc., 1998

Gorgeous? Do you agree you evolved from sea otters?

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 17, 2017 12:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The atmosphere on Mars is rich in carbon monoxide, according to 13 May issue of New Scientist. Here on Earth this gas is a source of energy (hence food) for bacteria, by oxidising it to CO2. If bacteria were present on Mars, we would expect them to consume this lovely food source, and reduce it to a tiny fraction of what it is. But they have not. The conclusion is that life on Mars is very, very scarce, or non existent.


That sort of makes sense.

I cannot imagine a single species planet, as I think evolution is probably a universal "rule". However, I would also imagine that any competing evolved species would also first "eat up" all the available resources. So it would be the same result.

I think that this did happen on Earth as that's why the atmosphere changed to oxygen nitrogen as an evolutionary advantage in photosynthesis arose to obtain a new resource.

My "gut feeling" is that if there was once life on Mars, there would be more obvious evidence today, as some form of eco system would have formed over millions of years, even if it were only bacteria sized "thingees". There should be some sort of "bacteria graveyards" like oil exists on Earth.

(I'm open minded on this discussion as it is really just conjecture)

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed May 17, 2017 5:55 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:I think that this did happen on Earth as that's why the atmosphere changed to oxygen nitrogen as an evolutionary advantage in photosynthesis arose to obtain a new resource.



O2 is a waste product. We are breathing billion year old microorganism farts.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed May 17, 2017 7:15 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
O2 is a waste product. We are breathing billion year old microorganism farts.



actually, it's a rather catastrophic cell toxin. Without our mitochondria, it would kill us rather quickly.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Nobrot » Wed May 17, 2017 11:35 pm

Can this new (taking forever to build) James Webb telescope detect free oxygen in exoplanets?

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed May 17, 2017 11:37 pm

Nobrot wrote:Can this new (taking forever to build) James Webb telescope detect free oxygen in exoplanets?

https://jwst.nasa.gov/science.html
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 pm

The existence or non existence of life outside Earth is perhaps the greatest of present day mysteries. The James Webb telescope may or may not confirm its existence. Denial is probably not possible. It is a bit like 'proving' the non existence of God. Cannot logically be done. So we keep doing research to try to find extraterrestrial life. So far there is no sign. But, like believing in God, there are millions of people who choose to believe that such life is common. Since they have no evidence, that belief is held purely on the basis of blind faith, also like belief in God.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:06 am

Mars was habitable between 3.8 & 3.1 billion years ago

Mars would have had conditions right for life to survive for around 700,000 years, between 3.8 and 3.1 billion years ago, scientists have discovered.

By analyzing rocks from the Gale crater—a 96 mile wide depression that was once a vast lake—scientists have shown the conditions on Mars over various periods. Their research, published in the journal Science, reveals how the climate changed from a cold one to a warm, temperate one in which life may have thrived.




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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:54 am

pretty awesome stuff!
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:57 am

Scrambled one

Having water may not be sufficient. It remains to be seen if any trace of life ever existed on Mars. Personally, I doubt it. On Earth, life began 4 billion years ago, plus or minus a few tens of millions, and took hundreds of millions of years to achieve even the complexity of simple bacteria. 700,000 years would appear to be too short a time period to develop anything that we can clearly call life.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:59 am

unless life is ubiquitous and can be spread via meteorites and only needs the right conditions to prosper.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:16 am

Always possible, EM.
But currently purely hypothetical.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:29 pm

Even if we prove any chemistry resembling life can or can't develop on Mars, it gives us a better understanding about how it could.

And the methane and CO are just Mars farts (IMO). It's still warm in the centre, like a hot jam doughnut you've been staring at for five minutes, and is right now scoffing temperature.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:33 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:unless life is ubiquitous and can be spread via meteorites and only needs the right conditions to prosper.

Ever wonder how Kryptonite made it to Earth?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:47 pm

Superman was a Martian?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:06 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Scrambled one

Having water may not be sufficient. It remains to be seen if any trace of life ever existed on Mars. Personally, I doubt it. On Earth, life began 4 billion years ago, plus or minus a few tens of millions, and took hundreds of millions of years to achieve even the complexity of simple bacteria. 700,000 years would appear to be too short a time period to develop anything that we can clearly call life.

Right, "Mars would have had conditions right for life to survive for around 700,000 years" (Raw Story) doesn't hold a sign of life. Neither does
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6341/eaah6849 wrote:Previously reported detections of organic carbon compounds, nitrogen, phosphate minerals, and Fe and S minerals in a variety of redox states, combined with the evidence presented here for relatively stable climate conditions and gradients in fluid oxidation state, provide compelling evidence that all of the physical, chemical, and energetic conditions necessary to establish a habitable environment were present on Mars between ~3.8 billion and 3.1 billion years ago.


However, I know nuthin' about the time leading up to the exciting blip.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:08 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:Superman was a Martian?

Krypton blew up, pieces scattered. Light years away, Earth. In his lifetime chunks of Krypton made it to Earth. Some of it very early in his life. Very fast junk we got there.

The dispersion of life from a point source somewhere in the Universe to here would require more than just blind chance, even with 14,000,000,000 years to play with.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:Superman was a Martian?

Krypton blew up, pieces scattered. Light years away, Earth. In his lifetime chunks of Krypton made it to Earth. Some of it very early in his life. Very fast junk we got there.

The dispersion of life from a point source somewhere in the Universe to here would require more than just blind chance, even with 14,000,000,000 years to play with.

IKR? His little seedpod capsule was intelligently guided and propelled. Yet an inordinate amount of random crap from his planet got here first, even!

I think we can discount superhero comics as peer-reviewed and rejected.

Panspermia still has merit, in my mind. I don't think Earthlife came from Mars. I think Earthlife is Earthlife. I think there are conditions perhaps spontaneous to life, and we got lucky.

Having a look around doesn't hurt, tho'. Another spontaneous life eruption would tell us something. As would if we shared some... hehe... inalienable similarity.

Is life common, is it spontaneous, is there a progenitor?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:52 pm

What merit does an extremely unlikely scenario have, please?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:40 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:What merit does an extremely unlikely scenario have, please?

It's spicy.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:43 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:What merit does an extremely unlikely scenario have, please?

There's more merit that life could fall to Earth from Mars on a rock, than the opposite. Due to gravity wells, and stuff. Don't you agree?

But if life can spontaneously arise on Mars, why not just as easily (or easier) on Earth? That's why I discount the Mars to Earth thingy.

It's shifting the burden wotsit. Earthlife came from Mars. So how did Marslife life?

I dunno? Space aliens?

That's an option within the physical realms of possibility. That's what I mean about merit.

Maybe, a long time ago, a civilisation not too dissimilar, but older than ours, looked out longingly at the unlistening stars. They wanted to go there, but were smart enough to know they would never make it alive. Yet they understood the unique preciousness of Life, and their star was dying. So they chose a bunch of likely stars, and shot-off a bunch of robot seedships laden with the fundamental building-blocks of life. And then they died.

I mean, when you think about it, that's exactly how nature works. Shoot off some sprogs, wish them luck. Spray and pray. Why wouldn't the rest of the galaxy operate under the same Laws of Nature?

Or... The purely physical laws. Maybe as the galaxy is forming, one planet has a nice orbit for a billion years, long enough to develop biological goo, then something {!#%@} happens in that dynamic environment, shreds the crap outta the planet, and bits fly off into the galactic currents for billions of years. Just one single RNA molecule, not even life, lands somewhere with Goldilocks chemistry.

Like I said, Gawd. I think Earthlife is probably Earthlife.

But it's fun to think about. :)
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:16 pm

Jupiter can fling stuff into interstellar space.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:07 pm

I read a Scientific American article more than a decade back, which discussed some of this. The authors had calculated that the impact that killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago would have thrown some Earth stuff into space. Other researchers have found that bacterial spores inside rocks can survive long periods under the conditions found in space.

So, in fact, it is quite possible in theory that some Earth bacteria got to Mars a long time ago. We need better Mars landers to test this idea.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:53 pm

We think it's all happy here with our (currently) stable orbits, but when the system is accreting, planets can be flying anywhere, shredding each other with gravitational forces, perturbing orbits, sending them spiralling into the sun, sending them into long, cold, lonely intrastellar space, wandering planets, or, more likely, chunks, that could spray out into the galactic medium. Especially with a gas giant, and lots of time.

I'm just sayin'... It's within the realm of possibility. Probably not probable. But not outside.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:06 pm

I understand your point, MM, but life on Earth did not begin till some hundreds of millions of years after all that action ended.

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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:02 am

From what I've read, Earth was still being thoroughly pounded when prokaryotic life arose. Yup, about 500M years after whatever line accretion finished.

Cool enough to condense a reducing atmosphere and liquid water bubbling up from the crust. There's a lot of potential chemical energy in a reducing atmosphere. Water is the "Universal Solvent".

Mars was probably still too cold, and not warm enough for the same pressure-cooker chemistry we had here on Earth.

Mars wasn't fully baked. Venus was over-done. Mercury is like the pizza you left in the oven all night because you had the munchies and fell to sleep. A carbon crispy disc.
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:46 am

Major Malfunction wrote:...long, cold, lonely intrastellar space...

Image

Long, cold, lonely space within stars?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:02 am

Intra is the opposite of inter, innit?

If a spaceship can fly to another star, it's interstellar. Yes?

So what's a spaceship that can only fly around in one star system?
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Re: Minimal life of Mars?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:03 am

Interplanetary.


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