Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

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landrew
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:05 pm

busterggi wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:48 pm
landrew wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:47 pm
busterggi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:01 pm
landrew wrote:Age researchers tell us that the human body is capable of living over 200 years, barring the illnesses that generally bring our lives to an end in old age. Is it not plausible that one human could have escaped those illnesses by chance?

I suppose that if you've cleared the hurdles that could have killed you by age 100, the next century is clear-sailing.
Oh yeah, that's why there are so many folks over 200 but so few younger.
One in a million would mean over 1500 Chinese lived to 200. All we need is one, and his time spans many generations.
Show me the documentation for that one.
Yes, I get that it looks like I am making claims. But these things are only the figments of the story that prevent me from slamming shut the case. I strongly doubt that a man lived 256 years, but that's not absolution to the story for me.

China is a big mass of humanity, and within it, we may see things that are far too rare to be seen elsewhere. Suppose it were possible for 1 human out of a billion were able to slip past all the causes of death which claim the lives of nearly every human before age 100. Suppose it, don't believe it. In that case, wouldn't the human physiologists be right in saying that the human body is capable of living past 200 years? Yuen was a herbalist, and perhaps he found a cure for all the ailments that would claim his life normally. We really have no idea what all the life-limiting factors are. We need more than 60 elements for body functioning, and we have a very poor idea for which of those are in short supply, limiting our health.

You see how this works? Looking down the rabbit hole doesn't make it easier to fill it in with a shovel.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:28 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:47 pm
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:26 pm
Naivety is not an Olympic sport.
Yet it's a common pastime. It's easy to make sport of someone who wants to tackle strange evidence as "naive." Many of our most popular threads in this forum are originally based on a posting which raised a question which is hard to explain. Hard unless you want to take the shortcut of ridicule, dismissal and the forcing of a zero-term on what remains an X in the equation of human reasoning.

I have no axe to grind, I don't tell anyone how to think as a skeptic and I have no stake in defending unsupported claims, but I can't force myself to plaster over the hole in the wall that remains unexplained. I need to admit that the "conclusion" doesn't fit the evidence.
But that's just me. As you were.
So you like being a {!#%@}. Got it.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:06 pm

Landrew

Being a herbalist means nothing.

There was an article in Scientific American some years back on herbal remedies, and it pointed out that, when such preparations are tested scientifically, only 1 in 100 show efficacy. Even then, the effectiveness was a lot less than modern pharmaceuticals. A lot of modern drugs are based on herbal preparations, but they are modified massively. They are purified, chemically changed, standardised, mixed with adjuvant, and generally improved out of sight. Take the original source of the first true painkiller, known as aspirin. Willow bark contains a small amount of salicylic acid, which meant willow bark tea was a mild painkiller. But aspirin is purified salicylic acid modified by acetylation, so that it becomes acetyl salicylic acid, which is far more effective.

This is typical. The rare herbal remedy that has any benefit is substantially improved when it is turned into a drug. A longevity herbal preparation has a 99% chance of being useless, and even with the 1% possibility, it will be of limited value.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:28 pm

So you like being a {!#%@}. Got it.
And that's the shortest shortcut of all.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:20 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:06 pm
Landrew

Being a herbalist means nothing.

There was an article in Scientific American some years back on herbal remedies, and it pointed out that, when such preparations are tested scientifically, only 1 in 100 show efficacy. Even then, the effectiveness was a lot less than modern pharmaceuticals. A lot of modern drugs are based on herbal preparations, but they are modified massively. They are purified, chemically changed, standardised, mixed with adjuvant, and generally improved out of sight. Take the original source of the first true painkiller, known as aspirin. Willow bark contains a small amount of salicylic acid, which meant willow bark tea was a mild painkiller. But aspirin is purified salicylic acid modified by acetylation, so that it becomes acetyl salicylic acid, which is far more effective.

This is typical. The rare herbal remedy that has any benefit is substantially improved when it is turned into a drug. A longevity herbal preparation has a 99% chance of being useless, and even with the 1% possibility, it will be of limited value.
Once again sounding like I'm championing a load of unsupported claims, even 1% is significant. But the Chinese medical profession puts far more stock in traditional medicine than 1%. They don't agree with the "consensus" of western medicine.

I'm only playing devil's advocate here; if I were convinced of this story, I'd be a lot better equipped to fight for it. My only fight is for the logic of the problem; you can't dismiss troubling evidence just because it's troubling. In my gray basket it remains. Enough said.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:15 pm

Landrew

There is credible evidence and there is evidence suitable for convincing only those who are really, really gullible.

Evidence suggesting more than 1% of herbal remedies are effective fits into the latter category. The key is proper scientific testing. Sadly, Chinese herbal remedies are 'proved' by other methods such as word of mouth testimony. On remedies, that is seriously misleading. That is how all sorts of nonsense is accepted. It is the reason idiots spend hundreds of thousands of dollars going to Mexico for fraudulent cancer treatments.

Most illnesses resolve themselves, given time. So a fake therapy is seen to work, even though it is useless. Chinese herbal remedies are worse than fake, since many contain nasty toxins. Word of mouth, as opposed to proper scientific testing, is worse than useless. It is positively dangerous.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by KevinLevites » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm

An interesting fact relevant to this thread.

An 18 year old cat is about 92 years old in human years.

Creme Puff, born in 1967, died in 2005 at the age of 38.

I think any animal may be born (by genetic coincidence) with extra long telomeres.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:02 pm

KevinLevites wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm
An interesting fact relevant to this thread.

An 18 year old cat is about 92 years old in human years.

Creme Puff, born in 1967, died in 2005 at the age of 38.

I think any animal may be born (by genetic coincidence) with extra long telomeres.
An 18 yo cat is just 18 yo. There is no `in human years` in the life span of a cat. Pure nonsense.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:37 pm

Unusually long lifespan in any organism is noteworthy. If we can breed mice which can grow twice as old, chances are human ageing can be similarly flexible.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:53 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:02 pm
KevinLevites wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm
An interesting fact relevant to this thread.

An 18 year old cat is about 92 years old in human years.

Creme Puff, born in 1967, died in 2005 at the age of 38.

I think any animal may be born (by genetic coincidence) with extra long telomeres.
An 18 yo cat is just 18 yo. There is no `in human years` in the life span of a cat. Pure nonsense.
Even the supposed comparison scale should be represented as a curve, not a straight line.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:54 pm

Implausible as all get-out. In my mind, Li Ching Yuen having lived 256 years has a less than 1% probability of being true.
"<1%" is a low number but it's not zero. That's my problem. It "could" be true. Pardon me for not being able to transform a variable to a zero.

Most likely, Yuen inherited the title from someone else. The Chinese government kept records going back to the 1700s, but I think it's likely that it was a case of mistaken identity. Wishful thinking perhaps, caused this man to fall into the myth that someone could live so long. After all, 256 years is a very long chain of custody.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gord » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:07 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:37 pm
Unusually long lifespan in any organism is noteworthy. If we can breed mice which can grow twice as old, chances are human ageing can be similarly flexible.
When do the human breeding experiments begin? :wedgie:
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:30 pm

it's underway.
The easiest way to breed longer-living mice is to let them mate later and later ...
... which is exactly what people in developed countries are doing.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:43 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:30 pm
it's underway.
The easiest way to breed longer-living mice is to let them mate later and later ...
... which is exactly what people in developed countries are doing.
How does that work?
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:51 pm

Two billion heartbeats, give or take, is all most organisms have.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:55 pm

Give or take a lot.
Image
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:57 pm

So a human-cat-elephant hybrid would have twice the normal life expectancy.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:11 pm

OK, ~1-2 billion.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:23 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:43 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:30 pm
it's underway.
The easiest way to breed longer-living mice is to let them mate later and later ...
... which is exactly what people in developed countries are doing.
How does that work?
I don't think scientists really know.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Austin Harper » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:46 pm

The range in the given chart is .53-2.21 with an average of 1.08.

That means the minimum value is about half the average and the maximum is about double. The standard deviation is .5. That is, the range is huge and spread out.

The ratios of values to size are meaningless as well.
Compare hamsters with a ratio of 11834100 heartbeats/gram to whales at 7 heartbeats/gram.
Compare hamsters with a ratio of 0.05 years/gram to whales at 6.66667E-07 years/gram.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:50 pm

No. Ain't nobody got time for that {!#%@}.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gord » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:58 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:57 pm
So a human-cat-elephant hybrid would have twice the normal life expectancy.
No, because 2.21 x 1.18 x 1.1 = 2.87. That's only 1.3 times the normal life expectancy, not twice.

[/bad math]

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
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No. Ain't nobody got time for that {!#%@}.
You just need more heart beats.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:54 pm

Gord wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:58 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:57 pm
So a human-cat-elephant hybrid would have twice the normal life expectancy.
No, because 2.21 x 1.18 x 1.1 = 2.87. That's only 1.3 times the normal life expectancy, not twice.

[/bad math]

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:50 pm
No. Ain't nobody got time for that {!#%@}.
You just need more heart beats.
I've been borrowing heart beats from a payday loan place. I'll be paying back heart beats when I've been dead for two years.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:28 pm

Humans can live to twice the "normal " life span.
Through most of history, "normal " life span was no more than 60 years. Jeanne Calment lived to just short of her 123rd birthday. QED.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:28 pm
Humans can live to twice the "normal " life span.
Through most of history, "normal " life span was no more than 60 years. Jeanne Calment lived to just short of her 123rd birthday. QED.
Adding weight to the negative is good, but it still fails to refute the claim that a man lived for 256 years.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by TJrandom » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:39 pm

Claims without evidence can be rejected without... oooh, somebody ought to develop this so they can be quoted...

Why not claim that a 256 year old reincarnated, raised from the dead, taught by fairies, nursed by wolves, and hatched from a virgin man once lived a long long time ago? Not outside of the realm of possibilities if you are into such fairytales.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm

As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.

But reality is unforgiving. Reality shows that the longest life was just under 123 years. There have been numerous claims of extreme age, but none of them involve strong evidence. So, since those claims are not just extraordinary, but downright fantasy, we can comfortably and safely reject them.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:05 pm

Austin Harper wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:55 pm
Give or take a lot.
Image
Aw, humans are chicken - whodathunk! :lol:
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gord » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm

Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gord » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:44 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
Of what?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by TJrandom » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:03 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
We have the same problem that the Chinese have - a family registry system where failure to register a death means that on paper the individual hasn`t died. Great for producing fake centenarians. Evidence for a failure in record keeping, but not evidence for long life.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:18 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:03 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
We have the same problem that the Chinese have - a family registry system where failure to register a death means that on paper the individual hasn`t died. Great for producing fake centenarians. Evidence for a failure in record keeping, but not evidence for long life.
I agree the evidence is problematic, but that doesn't quite make it weightless.
I'm not fighting to make something out of nothing, but neither am I forcing a zero-value on something that can't be totally ruled out.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:00 pm

Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:44 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
Of what?
China.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:01 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:18 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:03 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
Gord wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:31 am
Lance Kennedy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:46 pm
As TJ was alluding to, with remarkable restraint (I am not so restrained), Carl Sagan said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This, of course, is so frequently quoted by skeptics that it is a skeptic cliche.
I think he was going more towards the Hitchens quote: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
We have the same problem that the Chinese have - a family registry system where failure to register a death means that on paper the individual hasn`t died. Great for producing fake centenarians. Evidence for a failure in record keeping, but not evidence for long life.
I agree the evidence is problematic, but that doesn't quite make it weightless.
I'm not fighting to make something out of nothing, but neither am I forcing a zero-value on something that can't be totally ruled out.
And that's why I consider you to be full of {!#%@}.
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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 pm

landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
There are no Chinese government records. There never was a 1930's New York Times article making any claim. No one ever made the claim in the first place. It is in internet meme that simply gets repeated.

A skeptic is not allowed to establish a strawman claim and then argue against that strawman claim. To do so would be arguing against all the variants of the Easter Bunny meme or Santa coming down the chimney meme.

A skeptic may only argue against an actual claim being made by someone.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:08 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
There are no Chinese government records. There never was a 1930's New York Times article making any claim. No one ever made the claim in the first place. It is in internet meme that simply gets repeated.

A skeptic is not allowed to establish a strawman claim and then argue against that strawman claim. To do so would be arguing against all the variants of the Easter Bunny meme or Santa coming down the chimney meme.

A skeptic may only argue against an actual claim being made by someone.
It goes without saying that the Chinese government kept records, handprints etc.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by landrew » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:09 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:08 am
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 pm
landrew wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:16 pm
The Chinese government records can be considered evidence.
There are no Chinese government records. There never was a 1930's New York Times article making any claim. No one ever made the claim in the first place. It is in internet meme that simply gets repeated.

A skeptic is not allowed to establish a strawman claim and then argue against that strawman claim. To do so would be arguing against all the variants of the Easter Bunny meme or Santa coming down the chimney meme.

A skeptic may only argue against an actual claim being made by someone.
It goes without saying that the Chinese government kept records, handprints etc. They would not have congratulated him otherwise.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by KevinLevites » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:09 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:05 pm
Austin Harper wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:55 pm
Give or take a lot.
Image
Aw, humans are chicken - whodathunk! :lol:
I see this chart and largely agree with it, but what about birds?

All parrots have a very fast metabolism, they have rapid heart rates, yet they can live over 60 years if they're properly cared for.

I would guess that Teddy Roosevelt's Amazon parrot--who lived to be about 106 years old--has probably put out about 10 billion heartbeats or more (that's a "back of the envelope" guess, but I'm sure that it's in the right ballpark).

I never said I believed that Mr. Yuen was 256 years old...in fact, I indicated the opposite. I think he was a fraud...selling herbal medicines just like a huckster selling cure-alls in the Old West (someone else said as much here as well).

My only point is that we should be open-minded...so long as our brains don't fall out.

HELA cancer cells are still going strong since the 1950s, and show no signs of slowing down with age...and these are human cells (although--of course--they are mutated and diseased cells that killed their donor).

I still think that we may crack the ageing process...but the question we should be asking is if we should.

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Re: Li Ching Yuen, really over 200 years old?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:04 am

landrew wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:08 am
It goes without saying that the Chinese government kept records, handprints etc. They would not have congratulated him otherwise.
Pay attention. You seem to be struggling again.

If Chengdu university that, according to the internet meme, in 1930, reviewed the government records didn't exist until 1978 ....and this was the warlord period with no Chinese government......then why are claiming this? What Qing Dynasty government person congratulated the birthday boy 70 years after the Qing Dynasty ended? :lol:

The entire story is a Western joke. You missed it. Chinese don't celebrate birthdays like western nations do with western calendars. Also, the Qing Dynasty didn't magically store 400,000,000 ceramic dishes from every child's birthday and hold on to those dishes for 250 years.
:lol: :lol: :lol: