Perhaps we just don't know the truth

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Omniverse
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Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Omniverse » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:32 pm

Plenty of topics have people debating and arguing about them. An example would be whether vaccines are harmful and cause autism or not or whether the soul, paranormal, and afterlife really do exist or not. People claim they know the truth regarding these topics. But perhaps they just think they know the truth when they really don't. After all, if there was any real truth to be discovered in these topics, there would be no debate about it in the first place.

For example, we all know that we will die if our hearts fail or if they were to get taken out. We also know for a fact that we are made up of atoms and that there are micro organisms known as viruses and bacteria. There is no debate about that which means it's a definite truth. But it's a different scenario when it comes to the afterlife and vaccines because these sorts of topics have researchers debating all the time with other scientists and researchers.

Given this, there might be no real truth to be discovered with these topics and people are just arguing back and forth. The idea of life after death has been an ongoing debate for hundreds of years. The very fact that it has been debated for so long must mean we really don't know whether the afterlife is very likely to exist or not. That's just my two cents on this. I could be wrong, but I really don't know.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:26 pm

Your valuation is wildly inflated.
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by mirror93 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:56 pm

I don't get the point of this topic..

btw, 3 different quarks make one proton(or a neutron, or any other hadron.) And these protons and neutrons are what make a nucleus, which is where all the mass of an atom lies. So, for example, your body is not made of atoms, your body is actually made up of hadrons called protons and neutrons(which have electrons revolving around it).
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:03 pm

I think the point is that Omni thinks that people whose brains have been replaced with jello are on an equal footing with people whose brains remain intact.
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Omniverse » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:13 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:I think the point is that Omni thinks that people whose brains have been replaced with jello are on an equal footing with people whose brains remain intact.
That's correct. But you would call proponents of the afterlife and paranormal dumb and the proponents would say the same thing about skeptics. From there, it would just go into an argument between skeptics and proponents as to why they think they're right. But, again, perhaps they just think they know the truth when they really don't.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Omniverse wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:I think the point is that Omni thinks that people whose brains have been replaced with jello are on an equal footing with people whose brains remain intact.
That's correct. But you would call proponents of the afterlife and paranormal dumb and the proponents would say the same thing about skeptics. From there, it would just go into an argument between skeptics and proponents as to why they think they're right. But, again, perhaps they just think they know the truth when they really don't.
No - actually it wouldn`t, since I wouldn`t call them dumb - but rather just deluded. You might want to look up the definition of dumb.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Omniverse » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:30 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Omniverse wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:I think the point is that Omni thinks that people whose brains have been replaced with jello are on an equal footing with people whose brains remain intact.
That's correct. But you would call proponents of the afterlife and paranormal dumb and the proponents would say the same thing about skeptics. From there, it would just go into an argument between skeptics and proponents as to why they think they're right. But, again, perhaps they just think they know the truth when they really don't.
No - actually it wouldn`t, since I wouldn`t call them dumb - but rather just deluded. You might want to look up the definition of dumb.
My argument still applies. Proponents would call skeptics delusional and skeptics would call proponents delusional.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:35 pm

That is only because they are...

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Omniverse » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:42 pm

TJrandom wrote:That is only because they are...
Well then, that's the conclusion you've reached. But all I'm saying is you could be wrong regardless of what you're convinced of. It's no different than how Christians could be wrong regardless of what they're convinced of, how Buddhists could be wrong, and how anyone could be wrong regardless of what they're convinced of when it comes to a topic that has arguments and debates.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:13 pm

I have always believed that my opponents could be wrong...

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:42 am

Omniverse wrote:An example would be whether vaccines are harmful and cause autism
They aren't and they don't. Nothing shows them to be except one guy who isn't a doctor anymore because he lied about it.
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:22 am

Omniverse wrote:...it's a different scenario when it comes to the afterlife and vaccines because these sorts of topics have researchers debating all the time with other scientists and researchers.
Um, what? What researchers are debating vaccines with other scientists and researchers? What debates?
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:02 am

He means the Alex Jones and gorgeous types...

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:42 pm

Omniverse wrote:
TJrandom wrote:That is only because they are...
Well then, that's the conclusion you've reached. But all I'm saying is you could be wrong regardless of what you're convinced of. It's no different than how Christians could be wrong regardless of what they're convinced of, how Buddhists could be wrong, and how anyone could be wrong regardless of what they're convinced of when it comes to a topic that has arguments and debates.

Christians (My grandparents were all Christians.) originaly said that Galileo's heliocentric theory was delusional, but most have probably come to think that he was right.

If you want to believe in the Virgin Birth, by all means do so, but most of us here simply don't think that there is enoough scientific or historical evidence to support that theory.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Christians with daughters do not believe in virgin birth... ;)

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:41 pm

In the scientific sense, there is no right or wrong. There are just ideas which are strong models of reality, and ideas that are not as strong. Which is which depends on the evidence. This is based on data. Data that is derived from revelation (religion and other superstitions) is crap data. Data that is derived from objective empirical testing (science) is good data.

The idea that vaccines save lives is based on good data, and is therefore a strong model. The idea that vaccines do more harm than good is based on crap data and is therefore a very weak model.

Skeptics base their ideas on data, and a competent skeptic looks hard at the data and uses only good data.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:13 am

Omniverse AKA Matt MSV AKA Kamil wrote:My argument still applies. Proponents would call skeptics delusional and skeptics would call proponents delusional.
Your "argument" has been debunked numerous times on this very forum. You simply make the same claim over and over again, when trolling science forums.

Skeptics provide evidence for their claims using the scientific method. Proponents of paranormal rubbish do not provide any evidence.
:lol:

Here is one of your insane you-tube videos
[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuilagU ... 2&index=10[/bbvideo]

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Poodle » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:35 am

I may be Mr. Obvious, but doesn't the word 'interview' have a reasonably specific meaning? Solo {!#%@}-spewing with a very cheap microphone isn't one. You should discuss this with your friends, Omnidork.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:38 am

TJrandom wrote:He means the Alex Jones and gorgeous types...
But he specifically said "scientists and researchers"!
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:13 pm

Gord wrote:
TJrandom wrote:He means the Alex Jones and gorgeous types...
But he specifically said "scientists and researchers"!
Playing loose with definitions me thinks... maybe scientists and researchers in the same sense that conspiracy theorists are theorists... :roll:

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:34 am

Maybe he just can't English good like what us can.
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Dr_Dickie » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:23 pm

Science is not about knowing the "truth," as THE truth can never be known. It is about the best "estimate" of the truth, the best evidence based estimate of the truth.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:27 am

Hi Dr. Dickie! :wave:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by mirror93 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:38 am

Dr. Dickie smells like somebody we all know who is..........
:paladin:

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:59 am

No, Dr. Dickie is correct. That doesn't sound like somebody we all know. :heh:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Poodle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:18 am

I half agree with Gord - Dr. Dickie is almost correct. But scientific truth can often be known. especially if the word 'approximately' is part of the statement.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Dr_Dickie » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:33 am

mirror93 wrote:Dr. Dickie smells like somebody we all know who is..........
Not from this forum. I was a member of the society YEARS ago, many years ago.
But new to here.
Hello all.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Poodle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:21 pm

Welcome Dr_D ...
This place is good to be in, but wear your thickest skin.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:29 pm

I'm fairly sure he will, Poodle.

:wave: Exceedingly glad Dr_Dickie is leaving his footprint here. I'm a yuuge fan of his...
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Poodle » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:41 pm

Well - a real sock! No strings attached, though, I hope.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by TJrandom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:50 pm

Dear Dr.... I have one of your shirts and trousers - not sure where I found them. Should I return them? BTW - Velcome....

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:41 am

Poodle wrote:I half agree with Gord - Dr. Dickie is almost correct. But scientific truth can often be known. especially if the word 'approximately' is part of the statement.
"THE truth can be 'approximately' known"?

I think that's what we all meant.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Dr_Dickie » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:21 am

Poodle wrote:Welcome Dr_D ...
This place is good to be in, but wear your thickest skin.
I have been on the internet since about '85 or so.
Some of the old usenet troll wars in the 90s were epic. Not much gets to me.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Tom Palven » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:08 pm

Dr_Dickie wrote:Science is not about knowing the "truth," as THE truth can never be known. It is about the best "estimate" of the truth, the best evidence based estimate of the truth.
Sounds fair enough.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:14 pm

Omniverse wrote:Plenty of topics have people debating and arguing about them. An example would be whether vaccines are harmful and cause autism or not or whether the soul, paranormal, and afterlife really do exist or not. People claim they know the truth regarding these topics. But perhaps they just think they know the truth when they really don't. After all, if there was any real truth to be discovered in these topics, there would be no debate about it in the first place.
Stop right there!!! It is not possible to be more incorrect than that last sentence. There are still people who believe the earth is flat and would be pleased to debate it with you.

What you are propounding is the ultimate, idiotic transmogrification of democracy: All opinions are equal, and as long as one side doesn't shut up, the other side hasn't proved its point. Or, to put it another way, "Until absolutely everyone agrees, nothing is really known." As a variant, "If we don't know EVERYTHING, then we don't know ANYTHING." That's a very convenient doctrine, seized on by people like GW Bush and Trump when they want to deny what scientists know about climate change. But they are willing to ignore it when deciding whether to go to war in Iraq and kill 100,000 people, or to believe Putin's version of the 2016 campaign. In those cases, no evidence at all is needed.

Try this old aphorism instead: "I have found you an argument. I am not obliged to find you an understanding."
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:21 pm

Omniverse enters a bit of postmodernist bull-{!#%@}, with a couple of small follow up posts, and then sits back and laughs while the rest of us are explaining the error 34 posts later.

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by mirror93 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:42 am

Except that truth can almost ALWAYS be known. At least, depends on how you are defining it
:paladin:

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:32 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:people like GW Bush
Huh.

GW Bush.
Gulf War Bush.

I just got that!
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Gord » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:35 am

mirror93 wrote:Except that truth can almost ALWAYS be known. At least, depends on how you are defining it
You're going to find that people can argue about anything. I, for instance, could argue about the possibility of knowing anything.

And I might, if we go down this path much further/farther!

Warning: Do not click on the following link. https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/qu ... -certainty
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: Perhaps we just don't know the truth

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:41 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Omniverse enters a bit of postmodernist bull-{!#%@}, with a couple of small follow up posts, and then sits back and laughs while the rest of us are explaining the error 34 posts later.
Yeah, probably a troll. Still, it does us good to review this extreme equivocation. The equivocators themselves can't be reached, but it's a good idea to spell it out: (1) The most important thing about an opinion is the way it was arrived at; if the process involved examination of all the relevant facts and tangible evidence, it's a respectable opinion that may still be wrong. If it's arrived at by consulting an oracle or listening to the voices inside one's own head, it's not worth considering. (2) Decision-making under uncertainty is forced upon us; that's why we have an Academy of Sciences and intelligence services. Their advice is sometimes wrong, but it's still safer to follow it than to bet on the contrarians.

I myself equivocate on the subject of religion. When Rabbis, Popes, Televangelists, and Imams all claim absolutely that they can PROVE they are right, and their arguments are all based on the contents of ancient manuscripts that are held to be sacred and unquestionable, I just turn away and say, "Fine, go and argue with one another. You're all equally deluded."
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945