Me too.

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Me too.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:30 am

Reference : Skeptic magazine (the American one), vol. 23, number 1, page 6.

Article by psychologist Dr. Carol Tavris.
This article is a somewhat skeptical account of the Me Too movement, in which numerous women are accusing numerous men of sexual misconduct. Mostly celebrities. Dr. Tavris calls herself a feminist but is not on the side of the extreme feminists on this issue. She suggests that much of the Me Too movement is over the top.

For example, Matt Damon suggested that there was a big difference between a man patting someone on the butt, and rape or child molestation. This was sufficient for Minnie Driver to blast him. Dr. Tavris suggests that there is, in fact, a hierarchy of abuse, with some acts being relatively innocent. She is not happy with the idea of a witch hunt against men who may not be guilty.

The stereotypes promulgated by the Me Too movement may be misleading. Lots of sexual encounters are truly consensual, and if men are to blame, so are women. The rush to judgement leads to error, and of course there is lawyer corruption, with money to be made in lawsuits. Sometimes the identity of the true victim is in doubt.

I have a couple of ideas to post also.
This whole movement seems to me to have something of mass hysteria about it. A few years ago, in the USA, there was a mass hysteria about killer clowns. News reports of evil clowns led to a whole lot more such reports, all false. Perhaps in this case, reports of women describing sexual misconduct has led lots more women to do the same, even when it is not justified.

My other thought is that human memory is deeply flawed, and any report that is years or decades old should be treated with suspicion . This is even more true if there is a chance that the reporter may have been influenced by other reports. Not suggesting people tell deliberate lies, but it is possible for major mistakes to be made and sincere reports made of things that never happened. Our memories get distorted by time and other influences.

So, is the Me Too movement going too far ? Is it likely that a lot of reporting is not accurate, or exaggerated .

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Re: Me too.

Post by Aztexan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:01 am

The movement is valid.
The role of the dominant male is being questioned and the dominant male don't like it.
It's about time.
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Re: Me too.

Post by TJrandom » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:17 am

Memories that were stored based upon a personal tramatic experience, are not likely to be inaccuate or exaggerated.

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Re: Me too.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:49 am

There is some truth in that, TJ. However, memories that are based on a minor incident can be modified to make them seem more traumatic.

There was a research project some years back on memory. Subjects were told (lied to) that the aim of the experiment was to test accuracy of long term memory. They were told that their parents had revealed (another lie) that they had gone to a fair at age 10. They were asked to write an account of that fair experience in maximum detail, and not to forget the hot air balloon ride. Of course, there was no fair, and definitely no hot air balloon ride. Almost every subject wrote a detailed account of the fair they did not attend, and 25% of the subjects wrote in detail about the not air balloon ride that had not happened. This indicates how badly human memory fails when there is a suggestion from someone else of something that did not happen.

A woman who has a minor sexual incident with a guy, who has been stimulated by a report from a different woman about the terrors of sexual molestation, might well "remember " something which never happened.

All of this is made worse by the fact that society expects men to make the first move in any potential sexual encounter. Guys will make a pass at a woman in the hopes that she might be receptive, and not persist when she shows she is not, but yet be blamed years later due to a memory that changes.

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Re: Me too.

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:20 am

We had the very public Child Molestation and Satanic Ritual scares of the past.
As of this moment, I believe that MeToo has avoided the obvious mistake of throwing their weight behind anyone with a vague accusation: the stories so far had legs.
When Me Too runs out of credible cases it will be a sign that the worst cases have been brought to light.

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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:54 am

Lance: you say "has led lots more women to do the same". ie: LOTS OF. What in fact do we have? Several dozen at most reports in the news?====compared to millions of interactions per hour?

Who is being a bit histerical?
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Re: Me too.

Post by Poodle » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:59 am

Bring back "Yes, dear".
Drives 'em crackers!

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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:36 pm

:lol:
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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:41 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
For example, Matt Damon suggested that there was a big difference between a man patting someone on the butt, and rape or child molestation. This was sufficient for Minnie Driver to blast him. Dr. Tavris suggests that there is, in fact, a hierarchy of abuse, with some acts being relatively innocent. She is not happy with the idea of a witch hunt against men who may not be guilty.
I'd agree with Matt Damon and Dr. Tavris . But even "butt patting" has to be looked at in its spandex context.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:41 pm

Looking at the context is exactly what Damon is talking about......spandex entirely irrelevant?
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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Seems Matt Damon was speaking of the difference of - sometimes inappropriate - patting and violent sexual assault. Butt the differences in the meaning/relationship behind (no pun intended) touching a person's behind, not the severity of the slap, are, imho, important.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Well........every nuance of human behavior/intent/impact is important. I always chuckle a bit as a "senior executive" in several large corporate settings....I used to "touch" male and female co-workers in a way that would upset OTHER PEOPLE: those not being touched. It even became somewhat of an issue once where one guy was hit with a complaint for inappropriate touching and his defense was to cite MY behavior of touching women more invasively than he claimed to have done.

But the point is, most people/women can tell when a touch is friendly/consoling/or aggressive/inappropriate. I had to think about the complaint for awhile. "What was I doing and why?" It mostly sprang from a recognition that I rarely touched anyone and that "touch" is very important in human associations....so I loosened up and started touching to the degree and when I felt like it. I've never had a complaint even though many have commented that they could complain if they wanted to.====>in the context that they were open to me doing it, but not others.

Ain't that cool?

INTENT: it makes a difference, just like Matt Damon says.
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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:27 pm

So if the intent was to show their deep affection, it's OK to rape or molest a child? (I don't think we are reading/will read Matt's words the same way, at least not today - so I'm out for now. :-P)
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Eggs: from what I initially see, you are conflating the wrong parts of what Matt and myself say: there is a difference in patting a kiddie on the bum to show affection vs raping or molesting said kiddie. Matt and I make a distinction, evidently, you can't make that distinction????

I assume you can and do in your own daily activities.....it must be the forum effect.
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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:46 pm

"a big difference between a man patting someone on the butt, and rape or child molestation" means to me that there is a big difference between (violent) assault and an inappropriate (or even appropriate) touching of another person - no matter what age - and that was the only point I touched (hehe):

I don't see where "INTENT: it makes a difference, just like Matt Damon says." fits in there at all. :pardon:
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Re: Me too.

Post by Austin Harper » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:50 pm

I think what Damon was saying is that we shouldn't treat all misconduct equally. It's also wrong to steal somebody's lunch, or their car, or to murder them. But we can all agree that murder is worse than grand theft auto, which is worse than petty theft.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:51 pm

Intent: I think the famous example is picture in your mind of a man coming at you with a knife surely ready to plunge it into your chest. One is a physician with the intent to save your your life. The other is a thief, intending to steal your wallet.

I think, intent makes a difference?
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Austin Harper wrote:I think what Damon was saying is that we shouldn't treat all misconduct equally. It's also wrong to steal somebody's lunch, or their car, or to murder them. But we can all agree that murder is worse than grand theft auto, which is worse than petty theft.
Ah....I see a missing element: that the pat on the bum and nothing else was done with the evil intent of molesting the child? Maybe so. I don't think most molestoers would get off on a mere tap on the bum.

Ha, ha....I am in memory of a repeated Sat Nite Live theme of Buck Henry playing the role of the Uncle who hid dimes in his pockets and encourage the SNL cast playing kiddies to scrounge into the pockets to get the change. The theme of the Uncle being a "friendly pervert" was very obvious. //// So now, lets take such an uncle for real? Is such activity the same as molestation and rape? Zero (in)tolerance in operation?

EVERYTHING: is the same and DIFFERENT from everything else. Add up both side: make a determination.
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Re: Me too.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:53 pm

I suspect that intent is less important in this issue than perception. If a guy touches a woman with the intent of consoling an upset colleague, but she perceives it as sexual, the perception will be the important thing.

There is an overall idea here, that almost anything can be over inflated. We had the crazy clown idiocy. The recovered memory idea that put a bunch of innocent men in prison. Is the Me Too movement another over inflated and possibly damaging thing also ?

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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:05 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: Is the Me Too movement another over inflated and possibly damaging thing also ?
What do you THINK?
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Re: Me too.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:47 pm

TJrandom wrote:Memories that were stored based upon a personal tramatic experience, are not likely to be inaccuate or exaggerated.
There is considerable evidence for the opposite. When the Innocence Project got underway, their best successes were where men were convicted of rape solely based on the eyewitness testimony of the victim. Later DNA testing often proved these men were not guilty. There is no evidence that the women were lying, at least not in the cases I read up on.

During stress or severe trauma, a person can become focussed on minute details to the exclusion of a broader picture, which the brain fills in later.

About 15 years ago, I was a witness to an armed robbery - the guy pulled a knife and demanded cash and cigs of the cashier. My memory clearly is that he was wearing a red jacket from some sports team, with the team crest on the left boob. When I later had a chance to see the security video, the jacket was white with red sleeves. It's like 2 separate memories in my head, one of the robbery where he's wearing a red jacket, and a separate memory of the video where the jacket is white with red sleeves. The memories don't reconcile in my brain, and stay separate.

Oddly, I saw enough to identify the sports crest, but not to register that it was red on a white background - most of my attention was on that hand with the knife, which was clothed in a red sleeve. My brain filled in the rest.
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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:54 pm

Still seeing red, eh? :-P
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Re: Me too.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:55 pm

Good story, Oleg.
Thank you. It is most illuminating.

I would have just one dispute with your statements about the innocence project, which is pretty much correct. What you did not mention is that the women who testified against a guy for raping them were truly sexually attacked. They just failed to identify the right guy.

But it certainly backs up what I have always said about eye witness testimony. Even when sincere and firmly believed, it is often wrong.

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Re: Me too.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:02 pm

So, several points on this topic, after a caveat: None of what I'm about to say is intended to apply to the men in this forum, but to the culture in general.

First, every woman I know has experienced sexual assault, sexual harassment, and/or rape. (I don't include catcalling, unless it progresses to stalking, threats, or assault.) I include myself, since I've experienced all three.
—————
Second, I don't think most men realize how prevalent this kind of experience is, and the vulnerability that women feel in such situations, knowing the potential physical and emotional danger (including being fired, physical injury, emotional trauma, pregnancy, STDs, and death). I don't know whether the guy who's catcalling me on my way into the bar intends to lie in wait for me when I leave. Men don't have to think about these things, generally. Women always do.
  • Going shopping at night? Wait for a parking space close to the store, and under a bright light.
  • Return to your vehicle and discover a van parked on your driver's side? Wield your keys as if they're sharpened brass knuckles and get in on the passenger's side.
  • Driving on a remote road and get a flat tire? Immediately experience fear at the sudden vulnerability.
  • Random stranger buys me a drink? Immediately wonder if it's roofied...again. (I never let my drink out of my sight. Ever.)
  • Working late? Ask people to walk you to your vehicle. (When I was a bartender on the 9pm-2am shift, one of my regulars always waited for me to close up so he could walk me to my car. I don't know whether I can convey the amount of stress his kindness eradicated.)
This is not baseless paranoia, but necessary caution learned from experience.
—————
Third, the issue should be considered with more nuance, IMO. A woman who has experienced brief, unwanted touching from an acquaintance is not in the same boat as my experience of unrelenting stress for months on end under the threat of losing my livelihood because I refused to sleep with my boss...and the daily harassment I endured when I did say "no"...after stringing him along while I worked to achieve and maintain the highest productivity of any supervisor in the building on all three shifts so that he couldn't fire me without being questioned by his superiors. (Hey, he attempted to play me. I merely returned the favor.)
—————
Fourth, until the culture of prostitution changes, the movement is necessary. And it's beginning to change, at least in the younger generations. But our culture overwhelmingly considers women to be property and men to be property-owners, to the extent that not only do men consider women to be property, but also women consider themselves property. Items...
  • On a date, the woman typically expects the man to pay...and the man expects to pay. They're both labeling her as property to be purchased. It's transactional and outmoded, because it dates from a time when the man had to prove he could support a wife and family. Women work now; we're perfectly capable of supporting ourselves. (When a man buys me a drink, I thank him sincerely...then buy him one. I don't believe in taking advantage of my gender to garner freebies...or in allowing the man to believe I'm interested when I'm not, since I'm ecstatically single.)
  • Woman shows off the $8,000 diamond engagement ring her fiancé bought for her. She's bragging to her friends that she's now owned, and he's bankrupted his finances to purchase her. If you love each other, why does the woman require an expensive physical token of that love? And why does the man believe he needs to mark his territory? To me, this is irrational.
  • The classic formal wedding, which costs upwards of $30G these days, is nothing more than a public display. The groom is showing off his new property, and the woman is doing her best to look like quality property. Meanwhile, the newly married couple has no money for a down payment on a house, no nest egg for emergencies. Insane. Not to mention the tradition of the bride's father paying for the celebration and "giving away" the bride...that's just handing off ownership from father to husband.
Why do we teach our daughters to modify their behavior to avoid being raped, but fail to teach our sons that sexual assault of any kind is unacceptable? And how can our sons learn to treat women as people (and our daughters learn that they are people) when our entire culture is saturated with woman-as-property?
—————
None of this discounts the observable fact that people appear to be overly sensitive nowadays and quick to take offense. All of this, however, is indicative that both genders are responsible for perpetuating inequality. The "Me Too" movement, at the very least, raises awareness.
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Re: Me too.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:12 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Good story, Oleg.
Thank you. It is most illuminating.

I would have just one dispute with your statements about the innocence project, which is pretty much correct. What you did not mention is that the women who testified against a guy for raping them were truly sexually attacked. They just failed to identify the right guy.

But it certainly backs up what I have always said about eye witness testimony. Even when sincere and firmly believed, it is often wrong.
Yes, thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:16 pm

Gee....its bad enough having to resist all the other stuff. I have never harassed assaulted or raped in my life although one day on an Hawaiian beach wifey told me that I made the bikini girl in front of me uncomfortable with my staring. I was "in fact" only looking at how the waves where breaking on a reef.....but who would believe that? Ok....truth is....I was multi-tasking.

With perhaps the exceptions swamping the rule, I would think most fathers would tell their sons how to act with women? No????? My dad never talked to me about such things, Mom either. How did I grow up so righteous????? "Maybe" more common is a talk about how to stand up to a Bully and/or not to be a bully and somehow that flows over to how to treat women? Dear Old Dad never mentioned that either. I credit Darwin.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:22 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote: [*]Woman shows off the $8,000 diamond engagement ring her fiancé bought for her. She's bragging to her friends that she's now owned, and he's bankrupted his finances to purchase her. If you love each other, why does the woman require an expensive physical token of that love? And why does the man believe he needs to mark his territory? To me, this is irrational.
[*]The classic formal wedding, which costs upwards of $30G these days, is nothing more than a public display. The groom is showing off his new property, and the woman is doing her best to look like quality property. Meanwhile, the newly married couple has no money for a down payment on a house, no nest egg for emergencies. Insane. Not to mention the tradition of the bride's father paying for the celebration and "giving away" the bride...that's just handing off ownership from father to husband.[/list]
Maybe just me, but most guys act as you say because of social conformity and not wanting to lose or disappoint the girl. My property does not include my significant other. Just my tools and "stuff."
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:24 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How did I grow up so righteous?????
Thinking on it a bit: must be early socialization in school? I can see certain behaviors being encouraged (by default) at all boys schools....aka where Trump went and such? Maybe good as short of reform school, but not really healthy.
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Re: Me too.

Post by TJrandom » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:39 pm

A TMI disclosure here… I have several sisters and each of them has been raped with some raped more than once. Back in HS, I was asked by female friends to walk with them on the way home so that they could avoid the cat calls. Once a long time ago, on a construction site – many of the men cat called the unfortunate girl who passed on the other side of the street and I witnessed the group euphoria of that situation. I was given the respect talk by my mother and elder sisters. On dates where the girl wanted to pay her share, I generally consented – I was poor too, though I felt bad about it since it was against the norm. I do not recall any situation where I knowingly made a girl uncomfortable, but it is possible that one of my many female subordinates and acquaintances may.

Nikki`s post above rings true for me.

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Re: Me too.

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:49 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:...My dad never talked to me about such things, Mom either. How did I grow up so righteous?????...
A case of "actions speak louder than words"?
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Re: Me too.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:39 pm

Here in NZ, surveys show that 1 in 10 women has been raped. Mostly by someone she knows, with date rape being the most common. I suspect that it is similar in most western nations.

I think Nikki is over the top with suggesting that a guy buying a gal a drink is making her into his property. Really, it is just a guy showing interest in her, and most gals understand that. Nor is the gal buying him a drink negating anything. Hopefully that is just a woman contributing her share. Most men today understand that women are not property. Male jealousy is still, of course, common (as is female jealousy) but that is based on evolution generated behaviour, not an idea of ownership.

I agree that most women has experienced sexual molestation, but in most cases, it is not terribly serious. If a guy touches a woman and she shows that she does not like it, then he should not repeat the action. If he does, it is definitely wrong. But the action in the first place may result from ignorance or naievity, with the guy misreading signals. Not anything nasty.

Most women want to have guys interested in them, and making the first move. As long as that prevails, minor cases that can be called sexual molestation will always happen. As long as it is minor and not repeated, I have to say that I think women need to be tolerant.

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Re: Me too.

Post by AmeliaMichelle » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:17 pm

it's frustrating to see that women gain prominence through either sexual promiscuity or sexual scandal, as these are the few avenues really left us. Even more unfortunate that we would further use these oppressive 'tools' that are all we have. more and more moralist detective box women and their proletariat general guards doling out executions based on accusations to 'clear out' their communities of those whom don't get along well enough. Propegation of our disparity as women through the further victimizing of our roles on earth isn't helping, 'giving awareness' of these situations in these ways is really making them worse, and making interpersonal dynamics especially amongst workers much worse as well. gotta think, for every leftist zealot there's another even unhappier housewife, {!#%@} on by disparaging jargon and politically corrected extremes based on bunk stats. and if you refuse to agree with these vigilantes, your racist, sexist or perverted...

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Re: Me too.

Post by gorgeous » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:28 pm

nothing wrong with traditional roles and weddings...most women still want those....the feminist rantings are the minority ..... I see women working themselves to death because they don't know they deserve a quality man who will be the provider...do powerful women seem happy and content in life?...never seen any that are....I'm happiest and most content at home with lovely animals and a real man who knows how to treat me right in every way... ;)
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Re: Me too.

Post by Poodle » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:36 pm

In other news, Queen Victoria has died.

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Re: Me too.

Post by gorgeous » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:54 pm

women in the news for sex scandals is the fault of the immature public...if they ignored those details they would disappear....in Europe the mistress and wife are at the funeral of the guy together...most of the presidents had affairs, hookers....move on...
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Re: Me too.

Post by Aztexan » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:30 pm

*butthurtfully pulls bedsheet up to my neck.*
I can't believe you just said that
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Re: Me too.

Post by Aztexan » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:32 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Here in NZ, surveys show that 1 in 10 women has been raped. Mostly by someone she knows, with date rape being the most common. I suspect that it is similar in most western nations.

I think Nikki is over the top with suggesting that a guy buying a gal a drink is making her into his property. Really, it is just a guy showing interest in her, and most gals understand that. Nor is the gal buying him a drink negating anything. Hopefully that is just a woman contributing her share. Most men today understand that women are not property. Male jealousy is still, of course, common (as is female jealousy) but that is based on evolution generated behaviour, not an idea of ownership.

I agree that most women has experienced sexual molestation, but in most cases, it is not terribly serious. If a guy touches a woman and she shows that she does not like it, then he should not repeat the action. If he does, it is definitely wrong. But the action in the first place may result from ignorance or naievity, with the guy misreading signals. Not anything nasty.

Most women want to have guys interested in them, and making the first move. As long as that prevails, minor cases that can be called sexual molestation will always happen. As long as it is minor and not repeated, I have to say that I think women need to be tolerant.
Lance, she didn't say that the guy who buys her a drink is making her his property, she said that she has to check her drink if he does.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:46 pm

Aztexan wrote: Lance, she didn't say that the guy who buys her a drink is making her his property, she said that she has to check her drink if he does.
What Nikki said was: "On a date, the woman typically expects the man to pay...and the man expects to pay. They're both labeling her as property to be purchased." are you simply wrong....or making a fine distinction between making and labeling ?

Speaking of roofies.....one of my favorite hello lines (never a pick up) was "Does this smell like chloroform to you?" Good for a few giggles.
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Re: Me too.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:24 pm

Let's parse this:

1. it's frustrating to see that women gain prominence through either sexual promiscuity or sexual scandal, /// you are ignoring all the other ways women gain prominence if that is their goal. Just list all the way men do and note the women that have as well.

2. as these are the few avenues really left us. /// Unless you are defining prominence in some special way...all avenues are open. I agree, choices are still made.

3. Even more unfortunate that we would further use these oppressive 'tools' that are all we have. /// No...you have all the tools, but yes some do make those choices.

4. more and more moralist detective box women and their proletariat general guards doling out executions based on accusations to 'clear out' their communities of those whom don't get along well enough. /// Ha, ha.... a fine mess of word salad. You could mean just about anything?

5. Propegation of our disparity as women through the further victimizing of our roles on earth isn't helping, 'giving awareness' of these situations in these ways is really making them worse,/// hmmm...as best as I can follow your thinking.... "usually" drawing awareness to a problem is a first step in correcting the situation. What would your alternative be?

6. and making interpersonal dynamics especially amongst workers much worse as well. /// See No 5.

7. gotta think, for every leftist zealot /// wut? You are making this a left/right issue? No problems/issues/opportunities in the non-leftist zealot groups? Is the issue more the leftist part or the zealot part?

8. sthere's another even unhappier housewife, /// hmmmm....are you saying the majority of the concerned/affected women are "housewives"? I think that is about 50 years behind the power cureve.

9. {!#%@} on by disparaging jargon and politically corrected extremes based on bunk stats. /// another jumble of a word salad

10. and if you refuse to agree with these vigilantes, your racist, sexist or perverted.. /// yeah.... too far down your own rabbit hole.... not to be racist, sexist or perverted.
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Re: Me too.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:01 pm

One of the sad things about this forum is that many skeptics have this terrible weakness in their thinking, even smart skeptics like Oleg and Nikki. That is, while they oppose superstition in general, they are prone to being sucked in by that superstition that is called political correctness.

Nikki thinking that all men regard women as possessions is being sucked in by feminist politically correct superstition. Apart from a possible tiny minority of men, westerners are very clear that women are NOT property. Only politically correct feminists believe the superstition to the contrary.

I spent a lot of time on another thread opposing the politically correct superstition that rape is due to a desire for power and control. Another feminist superstition.

Skepticism SHOULD require solid and credible evidence that is based on empiricism and gained by objective testing. Something that just seemed to be a good idea at the time to an idiot extremist should be laughed out of existence. Yet it just has to be treated as politically correct to be regarded seriously by the gullible.