100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:59 am

Dubious wrote:Supposing, very hypothetically, it was Jesus, so now what? Just another human among many the Romans crucified. If Jesus = shroud "proves" one thing it was that the most fundamental event in Christianity didn't happen...the Resurrection and Jesus goes from god to nonentity in the sense that all of Christianity is fake.
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Eh? Do you mean that the shroud shows someone died...
Yeah! Someone died. You're ability to hook an idea is amazing!
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:...but not that the someone was the Son of God?
Wow! A second time; if fish were thoughts the oceans would be empty!

A safe assumption: if he left a body behind, he's less likely to be the son of god as supposed for almost two thousand years than the son of somebody as usually occurs in a normal begat . Sorry to be so vague! :lol:

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Even more puzzling is why he couldn't read or write.
More puzzling is why you would even say this.! :shock:

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:08 am

Kamil needs an idea hammered into his head before he'll begin to attempt to consider to entertain the idea that he's wrong.

As for the reading and writing, Jesus was supposed to be bringing the most important message ever sent to the human race, straight from God! But nobody wrote it down first hand. There were people who could read and write in those days, but none of them became converts or found the "message" to be important enough to write down. Gives us a good read on how important that message actually was.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Aztexan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:10 pm

Jesus had everyone sign NDAs.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:12 pm

Aztexan wrote:Jesus had everyone sign NDAs.
Yeah, that "important" message was for 12 fan-bois and a hooker. ONLY.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Aztexan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:21 pm

It sounds like all the happening chicks back then were named Mary.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:12 pm

There's a whole sea of them, maybe it was a title...
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:09 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:There's a whole sea of them, maybe it was a title...
Really? If you watch "West Side Story" you'll see a guy in Spanish Harlem scream out "MARIA!!!!" and only one girl responds. :lol:
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:There's a whole sea of them, maybe it was a title...
Really? If you watch "West Side Story" you'll see a guy in Spanish Harlem scream out "MARIA!!!!" and only one girl responds. :lol:
All the others knew he was taken. :-P
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:As for the reading and writing, Jesus was supposed to be bringing the most important message ever sent to the human race, straight from God! But nobody wrote it down first hand.
Jesus as a Jew had concern only for Jews which obviously excluded Gentiles. The most important message ever sent (if it can be qualified as such) was not to the human race but to his own people. Jesus was tribal; it was Paul who made him ecumenical as the redeemer of humanity which was based on only one idea that Christ was resurrected. Other biographical details of the life of Christ didn't concern him.
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:There were people who could read and write in those days, but none of them became converts or found the "message" to be important enough to write down. Gives us a good read on how important that message actually was.
Jesus made converts by preaching as was common and not by writing . As rabbi and teacher, he almost certainly knew how to read and write though many of his converts didn't. Jesus usually traveled the back roads of his surroundings not its main thoroughfares. Jesus was indeed resurrected from oblivion by Paul, a Roman Jew, with whom he had little in common.

In short, it's all a made up story whose real importance were its historical consequences and not so much the message contained in the resurrection idea well-known throughout the Mediterranean long before Jesus was born. Without Paul, he would have been just another bloke who got crucified like so many others who pissed off the Romans.

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:25 pm

All that to say nothing.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:50 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:All that to say nothing.
Examining your posts, nothing is your specialty.

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:53 am

Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:All that to say nothing.
Examining your posts, nothing is your specialty.
If you say nothing I will say nothing in return.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:56 am

In short review...I thought Dubious made some fine points. When something is nothing, I suspect a (minus 1) in the formula somewhere. Maybe we should go with absolute values?
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Poodle » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:29 am

I don't see much point in arguing the toss. If you believe that the Jesus of the biblical stories existed then you believe in magic. If you don't believe in magic, then you cannot believe in the biblical Jesus. Anything else is a contradiction. That obviously apples equally to acceptance of the magical reports concerning the Turin Shroud - you either have faith or you don't. The easy thing about having that faith is that the Shroud doesn't even have to be genuine to be as fully magical as the fairy stories which surround it. Faith aces evidence every time.
And, no matter how much scientific evidence is provided that the Shroud is simply a bit of cloth, the fog manufacturers always find a get out - the sample was taken from the wrong place, those particular fibres were from a later repair, the shroud hovered flat above the body just at the right time for that famous image to be fixed and not look like a road-roller accident ... and on and on.
I much prefer witches and ghosts - much more fun all round.

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:All that to say nothing.
Examining your posts, nothing is your specialty.
If you say nothing I will say nothing in return.
Saying "nothing" in your case is better than anything else you have to offer.

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 pm

Poodle wrote:I much prefer witches and ghosts - much more fun all round.
So do I.

Any history of the Shroud tells one nothing it being more subject to the sabotage of faith in wanting to believe the image is of Christ than anything factual. It's only a mystery because everyone has their own agenda in regarding it as the ultimate relic. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know how it was made, which still isn't clear as far as I know, compared to what people imagine it represents.

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:39 pm

Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:All that to say nothing.
Examining your posts, nothing is your specialty.
If you say nothing I will say nothing in return.
Saying "nothing" in your case is better than anything else you have to offer.
Yep, oh wise one, you're right on the mark there.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:57 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:All that to say nothing.
Examining your posts, nothing is your specialty.
If you say nothing I will say nothing in return.
Saying "nothing" in your case is better than anything else you have to offer.
Yep, oh wise one, you're right on the mark there.
We finally agree on something...except, I'm too humble to consider myself wise. I merely respond as I get responded to.

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:56 pm

Well, welcome to the rabbit hole. Don't step on the bones.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:18 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Well, welcome to the rabbit hole. Don't step on the bones.
There seem to be quite a few! Why not just cover them up and give the bones a decent burial; that way you won't have to step on them...a discourtesy to all Wabbits!

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:36 pm

Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Well, welcome to the rabbit hole. Don't step on the bones.
There seem to be quite a few! Why not just cover them up and give the bones a decent burial; that way you won't have to step on them...a discourtesy to all Wabbits!
You'll have to talk to the Bandersnatchi.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Dubious » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:47 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Dubious wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Well, welcome to the rabbit hole. Don't step on the bones.
There seem to be quite a few! Why not just cover them up and give the bones a decent burial; that way you won't have to step on them...a discourtesy to all Wabbits!
You'll have to talk to the Bandersnatchi.
Is he, she, it also a member of the forum? That would save me an introduction!

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Poodle » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:52 pm

Frumious!

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:32 pm

Poodle wrote:Frumious!
Not the poetic one. Think of a world in a circle.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:02 am

Kamil wrote:1) Joseph Kohlberg, a geologist, actually studied some of the remnants of the shroud and found limestone. Later, it was found that this limestone was common in Israeli tombs, but not just any Israeli tombs, Jerusalem tombs. Therefore, if it was not real, how could the shroud have some remnants from Jerusalem tombs?
Limestone is fairly common. Marine limestone can be found from 30º above to 30º below the equator, which covers quite a lot of area. Evaporative limestone grows in caves all over the world.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:2) Guy researched crucifixion history, and found that while the Persians invented it, the Romans perfected it. It can be seen in the shroud itself that there were thorns in this individual's head, which was never used before in Roman or Persian killings, therefore, it strongly hints it was actually Jesus
1. A "strong hint" is not evidence. At best, it indicates an avenue for further research.
2. Your starting in the wrong place. First, you have to firmly establish the historicity of Jesus...which is in question.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:3) The shroud accurately depicts the nails going through the wrists of the individual for crucifixion. In many middle aged drawings, Jesus is depicted as having the nails go through hands, and this is scientifically impossible. Therefore, it couldn't have been a forgery
:lol: Medieval drawings do not qualify as evidence. Even if the shroud depicts the imprint of a corpse that had been crucified, it's not evidence that the shroud was Jesus'.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:4) the shroud was measured in cubic units, something they didn't do in the middle ages, but did in ancient Palestine or Israel
1. I think you mean "cubits," not "cubic units."
2. Know what other ancient peoples used cubits? Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks, and Romans, to name a few. It was a fairly prevalent measurement in the ancient world. The Chinese, Japanese, and Indian, and Thai peoples had an equivalent measurement.
3. It is not true that the cubit wasn't used in medieval times; it was still being used in early modern times.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:5) plants and pollen examined on it were found to also be native to Palestine/Israel
By what metric? Many plants are spread to different areas by birds and herbivorous animals, by people, and by prevailing winds. I have tons of plants in my New England yard because of this, including several catalpa trees (native to the South and Midwest US), Oriental bittersweet (native to China), bush honeysuckle (native to Europe and Asia), goutweed (native to Asia), and several more.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:6) the blood examined on the shroud had some chemical compounds in it that a person's blood would have under extreme stress, which is what Jesus would have gone through, and a forgery would not have had that.
If it depicts a crucifixion victim, don't you think that person would have been under extreme stress? I mean, every time someone has tried to kill me, I've found it stressful.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.

No checkmate. Not even check. Lay down your King; you've lost the game.
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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Kamil » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:19 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Kamil wrote:1) Joseph Kohlberg, a geologist, actually studied some of the remnants of the shroud and found limestone. Later, it was found that this limestone was common in Israeli tombs, but not just any Israeli tombs, Jerusalem tombs. Therefore, if it was not real, how could the shroud have some remnants from Jerusalem tombs?
Limestone is fairly common. Marine limestone can be found from 30º above to 30º below the equator, which covers quite a lot of area. Evaporative limestone grows in caves all over the world.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:2) Guy researched crucifixion history, and found that while the Persians invented it, the Romans perfected it. It can be seen in the shroud itself that there were thorns in this individual's head, which was never used before in Roman or Persian killings, therefore, it strongly hints it was actually Jesus
1. A "strong hint" is not evidence. At best, it indicates an avenue for further research.
2. Your starting in the wrong place. First, you have to firmly establish the historicity of Jesus...which is in question.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:3) The shroud accurately depicts the nails going through the wrists of the individual for crucifixion. In many middle aged drawings, Jesus is depicted as having the nails go through hands, and this is scientifically impossible. Therefore, it couldn't have been a forgery
:lol: Medieval drawings do not qualify as evidence. Even if the shroud depicts the imprint of a corpse that had been crucified, it's not evidence that the shroud was Jesus'.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:4) the shroud was measured in cubic units, something they didn't do in the middle ages, but did in ancient Palestine or Israel
1. I think you mean "cubits," not "cubic units."
2. Know what other ancient peoples used cubits? Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Greeks, and Romans, to name a few. It was a fairly prevalent measurement in the ancient world. The Chinese, Japanese, and Indian, and Thai peoples had an equivalent measurement.
3. It is not true that the cubit wasn't used in medieval times; it was still being used in early modern times.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:5) plants and pollen examined on it were found to also be native to Palestine/Israel
By what metric? Many plants are spread to different areas by birds and herbivorous animals, by people, and by prevailing winds. I have tons of plants in my New England yard because of this, including several catalpa trees (native to the South and Midwest US), Oriental bittersweet (native to China), bush honeysuckle (native to Europe and Asia), goutweed (native to Asia), and several more.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.
Kamil wrote:6) the blood examined on the shroud had some chemical compounds in it that a person's blood would have under extreme stress, which is what Jesus would have gone through, and a forgery would not have had that.
If it depicts a crucifixion victim, don't you think that person would have been under extreme stress? I mean, every time someone has tried to kill me, I've found it stressful.
The judges rule your argument a FAIL.

No checkmate. Not even check. Lay down your King; you've lost the game.
Good points Niki, I cannot argue with those. I will take your points for these. Just out of curiosity, if you found out that the shround was in fact Jesus and not a forgery, would you believe Jesus was supernatural or the son of God? Or would you just say thay even though we don't know how the picture was exactly made, it is still not SN?

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Re: 100% convincing, further proof of Jesus through the shroud checkmate atheists

Post by Poodle » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:50 am

A two-post turnaround, Kamil? I'm disappointed - you should have been able to put up a better fight than that!