Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:26 am

ElectricMonk wrote:According to thermodynamics, you can never decrease entropy in a closed system. So while photosynthesis creates order by making plant matter, in also increases entropy via heat loss during the conversion.
But is also creates a a chemical bond that can lead to systems of orders of complexity that purely physical systems will never reach.


Yes, the amount of unusable energy (aka entropy) increases; no work without entropy increase elsewhere...
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:34 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
_exit wrote: I detect that you ought to read Wikipedia/Teleonomy.

I did, which allows me to CONCLUDE: you don't know what the word/concept "apparent" means.

Buy a dictionary..... look it up. ha, ha.......since I have not looked it up myself, let me check that:

apparent: Appearing as such but not necessarily so. //// Do you see the issue that so far you have ignored and expressly negated?


You may notice the word "reasonably" being used throughout my hypothesis. (The OP even says why the purpose of human life is reasonably to do ....")

The above is why your statements are demonstrably redundant.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:37 am

Ha, ha. Dictionary/language/?---cognitive---? skills severely lacking. Your use of reasonably has no connection to apparent.

Making the issue hinted at all that more unreasonable and more apparent.

Existentialism and choice. What a concept.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:37 am

Yes, there is plenty of things we don't grok about entropy.
For example, there are basically endless ways to mess up my room, which represents a reservoir for possible entropy increase that goes way beyond what could be possible if my room was instead just a cloud of atoms.
The reason being that life can make identical things different.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:38 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Actually, pure logic shows that the arguments, even if valid, do not support the hypothesis to any significant degree: there is just no connection.

But, as I said, let's pretend there was.
Concerning 2): for decades, energy consumption in high-tech countries has been stagnant or even declining, despite massive increase in the number of electronics we use: that is because machines have become so much more efficient. The efficiency rate of energy production is also increasing while the energy loss through transmission is decreasing.
A consciousness instantiated in a computer system would use up even less energy than in a biological one.
The biggest energy drain for a civilization might be inter-solar travel with rockets - but if we used space elevators instead, energy costs would drop to next to nothing. Inter-stellar travel could conceivably require huge amounts of energy, but only initially if we just beamed consciousness via laser to previously built receivers.
In short, the idea of grading civilization by the amount of energy it harvests/consumes is throughly antiquated: higher intelligence means you can get way more out of way less.

More generally: how, in your words, does life increase entropy faster than pure physics would?
Light from a lone sun sent into infinite vacuum is nearly as low in entropy as you can get. But by catching it in systems capable of photosynthesis, new ways to increase the entropy are accessed that pure physics couldn't even reach (a photon can't lose it energy unless it hits something - or if it can decay, which isn't certain).
So as long as life/technology manages to increase entropy in new ways, it can presumably stay ahead of the heat-death or at least not get there faster than the universe would without it.


Image
1.) That AGI may utilize less energy to attain more cognitive capability, does not necessarily warrant that AGI won't eventually use far more overall energy than humans. (Ironically, your earlier response to another member should have clued you in on this data!)

2.) Crucially, Alex Wisneer Gross' work (as cited in my hypothesis) stipulates a framework, which may reasonably show that intelligent things encompass more and more of a "system space" or paths precluding entropy maximization.

2.b.) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_maximization

3.) As per the laws of thermodynamics, enormous amounts of cognitive tasks (achievable by AGI) shall reasonably necessitate entropy beyond the scope of human reach. (Where the programs known as human cognitive tasks, approach means to generate AGI)

3.b) As long cited in the hypothesis, AGI shan't be limited to the typical human skull size; the laws of physics permits that AGI will be able to attain the ability to perform far more cognitive tasks, absent the limitation of the minuscule energy requirements that humans possess by comparison.

This means that although an AGI may achieve far more with far less, as AGI approaches more and more cognitive tasks, it shall reasonably consume more and more of the system space, as described in my hypothesis, and as detailed in Wisner's paper.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:41 am

Does gibberish increase or decrease entropy?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:45 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha. Dictionary/language/?---cognitive---? skills severely lacking. Your use of reasonably has no connection to apparent.

Making the issue hinted at all that more unreasonable and more apparent.

Existentialism and choice. What a concept.

   
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:45 am

You are not making an argument, you are extrapolating from an idea, and a highly questionable at that.
Just because we could turn all matter into computronium doesn't mean that we will: an AGI doesn't have to grow the way a bacterium would, given unlimited space and nutrients, precisely because it is not unintelligent.

Sidenote: if you think you have to put in memes to get your point across, your arguments must be too weak on its own.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Does gibberish increase or decrease entropy?

Image
Well, the construction of gibberish does increase entropy.
Here's a little break down of mine:

  1. When the brain is unconscious, data shows that less "work" is being done.
  2. When the brain is conscious (ie. somebody writing gibberish), data shows more "work" is being done.
  3. As this entropy wiki page reveals:

    1. Entropy may be observed as a measure of disorder, or measure of inherent loss of usable heat.
    2. The more "work" the brain does, the less heat or energy is available for work.
    3. This is why the farther away from sleep, and the closer to a conscious state the brain approaches, the higher the value of entropy, or the more the loss of usable heat or energy for "work" or consciousness.
    4. Think of entropy like a currency; up until a point, the more work you are permitted to put in, the more entropy you have to "pay up" to your surroundings, in the form of unusable heat or energy. This reasonably means in the unconscious state, you have less unusable energy at your disposal (or more usable energy, or lower entropy), compared to conscious states where you have used up your energy, thus more unusable heat or energy exists. (i.e. higher values of entropy)

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:54 am

Ha, ha. Well done. Wish I knew entropy better ........ so I could critique.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:58 am

ElectricMonk wrote:You are not making an argument, you are extrapolating from an idea, and a highly questionable at that.
Just because we could turn all matter into computronium doesn't mean that we will: an AGI doesn't have to grow the way a bacterium would, given unlimited space and nutrients, precisely because it is not unintelligent.

Sidenote: if you think you have to put in memes to get your point across, your arguments must be too weak on its own.


1.) I don't recall citing computronium in my hypothesis or the OP, nor do I see any computronium reference in the comments above. Who are you responding to?

2.) Anyway, computronium or not, AGI shall reasonably encompass more and more of the "system space" or macroscopic states.. that Gross refers to, particularly succeeding humans.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:12 am

_exit wrote:1.) What is the significance of your last sentence above, in relation to the hypothesis cited in the OP?

I don't care.

2.) As another has pointed out, you can quickly determine whether the article has been "modified" as you supposedly detected, by observing the edit history.

Which I did before posting. I don't see how that's relevant, however. The comparison between the lede and the quote I gave from Merriam-Webster shows a clear similarity. Whether it was "modified" by the person who originally wrote the lede as he was writing it, or was "modified" later by another editor, is immaterial.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:45 am

How do you think AGI could conceivably accelerate the heat-death of the universe except by turning everything into computronium?
Anyway, we are still nowhere near a reason why AGI should be any kind of goal.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Poodle » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:54 am

Purpose ... 'the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists'.
I really should be able to leave it at that. However ...
For life to have a purpose implies a 'something with a purpose' before life existed. It also implies intelligent design. The thread title - Life's purpose ... - is merely a guise for intelligent design. Establish that rather than demanding it and, if you can't. then there's nothing new here - move on.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:36 am

_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:If entropy had a goal, it would be the heat death of the universe.

And claims that it has a purpose are as dumb as the actuality.


Whose arguments you are attempting to negate?

I haven't seen an argument yet.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:40 am

Poodle wrote:The thread title - Life's purpose ... - is merely a guise for intelligent design.

That's been my concern as well.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:43 am

Gord wrote:
Poodle wrote:The thread title - Life's purpose ... - is merely a guise for intelligent design.

That's been my concern as well.

That or we have a second year philosophy student here. God, what a mess they make.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:54 pm

As a principle, there is no difference in consciousness between the same AGI program running on different types of Universal Turing Machines. So whether you have a nanoscale chip or a steam-powered mechanical version, as long as they have enough memory to run the program the only difference is speed.
But one version creates vastly more entropy per cycle than the other.
It is therefore not consciousness that determines entropy increase, but the form of its instantiation.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:55 pm

Poodle wrote:Purpose ... 'the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists'.
I really should be able to leave it at that. However ...
For life to have a purpose implies a 'something with a purpose' before life existed. It also implies intelligent design. The thread title - Life's purpose ... - is merely a guise for intelligent design. Establish that rather than demanding it and, if you can't. then there's nothing new here - move on.


Your issue is that you entered this thread, thinking that "purpose" was merely of subjective/religious concern. (As a result, you argue against that description, instead of what the OP actually concerns.)

You ought to pay attention to the reminder from the OP:

_exit wrote:Reminder: One ought not to confuse the teleological argument (purpose in the realm of subjectivity/deities/religion), with teleonomy (purpose in the realm of objectivity/science); this thread is concerned with purpose in the realm of science.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:56 pm

Word salad.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:57 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:01 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
Poodle wrote:The thread title - Life's purpose ... - is merely a guise for intelligent design.

That's been my concern as well.

That or we have a second year philosophy student here. God, what a mess they make.


1.) The "mess cake" is trivially resolvable, given that you accept that you had been ignorant of teleonomy.

2.) Teleonomy concerns purpose in the realm of science/objectivity, instead of religion/subjectivity.

3.) Pretending teleonomy doesn't exist, doesn't actually warrant that it is fictitious.

Unless you admit your ignorance, you will continue to argue against the teleological argument, which contrasts teleonomy, and thereafter you shall argue not against my hypothesis, but against something else.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:11 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:As a principle, there is no difference in consciousness between the same AGI program running on different types of Universal Turing Machines. So whether you have a nanoscale chip or a steam-powered mechanical version, as long as they have enough memory to run the program the only difference is speed.
But one version creates vastly more entropy per cycle than the other.
It is therefore not consciousness that determines entropy increase, but the form of its instantiation.



1.) Note that by consciousness, I am referring to that quality in humans that enables general intelligence, as is sought to be reproduced in Artificial General Intelligence.

2.) There is reasonably a difference in consciousness/cognitive activity/energy requirements, as evidence shows, from humans to AGI.

Mateos et al shows that conscious States induce higher values of entropy, compared to unconscious States.

See the "Consciousness, unconsciousness and entropy" section in my hypothesis. (In particular, see the relevant work by Mateos et al)

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:15 pm

_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:22 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.


Science is not voodoo.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Cadmusteeth » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:24 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.
I don't know exactly what he's selling, but I ain't buying.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:30 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.
I don't know exactly what he's selling, but I ain't buying.

He's in Lucifer mode. "I bring you dumb {!#%@} the LIGHT!"
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:56 pm

Exit, do you claim that consciousness is based on more than just computation?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Poodle » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:13 pm

_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
Poodle wrote:The thread title - Life's purpose ... - is merely a guise for intelligent design.

That's been my concern as well.

That or we have a second year philosophy student here. God, what a mess they make.


1.) The "mess cake" is trivially resolvable, given that you accept that you had been ignorant of teleonomy.

2.) Teleonomy concerns purpose in the realm of science/objectivity, instead of religion/subjectivity.

3.) Pretending teleonomy doesn't exist, doesn't actually warrant that it is fictitious.

Unless you admit your ignorance, you will continue to argue against the teleological argument, which contrasts teleonomy, and thereafter you shall argue not against my hypothesis, but against something else.


I see.
Well ... teleonomically speaking, the thread title - Life's apparent purpose ... - is apparently merely a guise for intelligent design.
Apparently, that should apparently fit the apparent response.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:41 pm

The more "sophisticated" they think they are, the more tedious they turn out to be.

And what's a "mess cake"?
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Pyrrho » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:36 pm

I don't make mess cakes.
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:12 pm

Poodle wrote:
I see.
Well ... teleonomically speaking, the thread title - Life's apparent purpose ... - is apparently merely a guise for intelligent design.
Apparently, that should apparently fit the apparent response.


1.) See Wikipedia/teleonomy. (This is separate from religious endeavor, although some theists may find the instance of scientific things arduous to absorb)

2.) Google definition of life:"the existence of an individual human being or animal."
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:15 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Exit, do you claim that consciousness is based on more than just computation?


From which source did you supposedly derive that conclusion?

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:20 pm

Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.

I don't know exactly what he's selling, but I ain't buying.

Haven't we had someone else fairly recently who kept insisting that whatever it was he was doing was "science"? Because this line of reasoning feels familiar to me....
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:22 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The more "sophisticated" they think they are, the more tedious they turn out to be.

And what's a "mess cake"?


Somebody had written the phrase, and I responded with quotes of said phrase. That person decided to edit their response such that the phrase is no longer present.

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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby _exit » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:24 pm

Gord wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.

I don't know exactly what he's selling, but I ain't buying.

Haven't we had someone else fairly recently who kept insisting that whatever it was he was doing was "science"? Because this line of reasoning feels familiar to me....


I notice that I am the only one here who tends to provide scientific sources to support my expressions.

You need to get into that habit, before being critical of others...

Signature: I am interested in completing a novel learning model I call the "Supersymmetric Artificial Neural Network".

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:24 pm

_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The more "sophisticated" they think they are, the more tedious they turn out to be.

And what's a "mess cake"?


Somebody had written the phrase, and I responded with quotes of said phrase. That person decided to edit their response such that the phrase is no longer present.

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Gawdzilla Sama
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:25 pm

_exit wrote:
Gord wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.

I don't know exactly what he's selling, but I ain't buying.

Haven't we had someone else fairly recently who kept insisting that whatever it was he was doing was "science"? Because this line of reasoning feels familiar to me....


I notice that I am the only one here who tends to provide scientific sources to support my expressions.

You need to get into that habit, before being critical of others...

Why?
Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"

WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
The greatest place to work in the entire United States.

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Gord
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby Gord » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:28 pm

_exit wrote:
Gord wrote:
Cadmusteeth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
_exit wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Word salad.

Science is not "word salad".

And what you're doing is voodoo.

I don't know exactly what he's selling, but I ain't buying.

Haven't we had someone else fairly recently who kept insisting that whatever it was he was doing was "science"? Because this line of reasoning feels familiar to me....

I notice that I am the only one here who tends to provide scientific sources to support my expressions.

"Expressions"? Whut?

You need to get into that habit, before being critical of others...

Uhhh...heh heh...no I don't.

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bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: Life's purpose is to make Artificial General Intelligence

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:41 pm

Whats amusing to me is that once you "accept" the definition of a word/concept....most arguments, and all honest arguments, will go away.

Relevantly here, Teleonomy is DEFINED as an apparent phenomenon which is just another way of stating it is about false perceptions. To say "2.) Teleonomy concerns purpose in the realm of science/objectivity, instead of religion/subjectivity." is simply a falsification of the definition that is NOT BEING FOLLOWED.

There are many ways to describe the well known fallacies being presented here, many already referenced above and continuously ignored/dismissed/equivocated/manipulated. EM cleverly, humorously, and insightfully coins the term "computronium" and you demonstrate your disengagement by asking from which source did he derive that conclusion. In "my" life, that is a dishonest response.....apparently made as some part of a game. Thats fine, several people here play several types of games. Game Theory is another "....omy" to dissect this meaningless universe we are a part of.

I didn't catch this was APPARENTLY a ruse to inoculate the fine minds here with thoughts of Intelligent Design....but it fits. Is that the purpose of this TELEOLOGICAL argument?==>because it is not a scientific one. The strong tell for that is any reference to entropy or thermodynamics. Religion: a constant amusement to me that it claims as much of the magesterium of science that it can: a lie wrapping itself in truth. A very purposeful engagement, apparently.
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