"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:42 pm

TJ

Let me repeat.

If you change definitions, you have a different argument. If you want to include under the name 'rape ' every kind of sexual attack, then you are arguing something entirely different. You might as well define rape as hitting someone on the head.

We started with a definition meaning forcible sexual intercourse. If that is now changed, we are starting again.

If we stick to the original definition, then I am correct, and the sex drive is the basic cause of this horrible behaviour. That is shown by what nappens when the sex drive is suppressed.

Now you guys were arguing against the idea that the sex drive is the basic cause of rape. In that, you were wrong. Admit it.

I threw out the accusation that you guys were arguing that sex crimes have nothing to do with sex. That was pure mockery, intended to show how ridiculous your ideas were. Sure, they were not your exact words, but so WHAT, since I was just mocking you.

What you were arguing was wrong. Admit it.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:21 pm

Lance, you are engaged in circular reasoning.
You claim that X is done by Y.
Next you define X as something done by Y.
So now you can show that X is done by Y.

You haven't gotten anything out of the argument that you haven't put in yourself.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:33 pm

EM

Your illogic is fallacious.

My thesis was that rape has, as it's basic cause, the sex drive.
When drugs are used to suppress the sex drive, raping stops. When a serial rapist on those drugs stops using them, then when enough time has elapsed for libido recovery, the raping starts again.

I have demonstrated my thesis beyond reasonable doubt, and all the red herrings, straw men, and wriggling on the hook does not change that.

Now, if I remember correctly, you have not actually stated the fallacy that Nikki, Io, Bobbo, and TJ, have stumbled on. Why are you standing up for their bull-shit, and risking making a fool of yourself ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:15 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

Let me repeat.

If you change definitions, you have a different argument. If you want to include under the name 'rape ' every kind of sexual attack, then you are arguing something entirely different. You might as well define rape as hitting someone on the head.

We started with a definition meaning forcible sexual intercourse. If that is now changed, we are starting again.



Yes, you do that a lot.

WE did NOT start with your definition - though YOU may have.

Sorry, I didn`t read the rest of your post. Indeed, why should I, since you never respond appropriately. Off in your own special world...

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:40 pm

It is very common, TJ, in these discussions for one person to misinterpret what someone else has said. I am sure I have done it myself many times. It works both ways, though, and I am sure you have misinterpreted my statements many times also.

But get this clear. My thesis is that rape (defined as forcible sexual intercourse) has, as its basic cause, the sex drive. Do you deny this ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:31 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:It is very common, TJ, in these discussions for one person to misinterpret what someone else has said. I am sure I have done it myself many times. It works both ways, though, and I am sure you have misinterpreted my statements many times also.

But get this clear. My thesis is that rape (defined as forcible sexual intercourse) has, as its basic cause, the sex drive. Do you deny this ?


Nope - no more than I would deny a contention that being alive is a basic cause of rape, or being male is a basic cause of rape (as you define the term). What I have said, is that these `basic` causes seem quite irrelevant to any attempt to address the phenomena – AND that there are other drivers that may indeed be more important and can be addressed (identification, education, intervention, punishment). Saying that it is primarily the sex drive, and thus implying that a handful of minor and thus unimportant factors contribute, trivializes the act by providing an easy excuse for the rapist.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:16 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:You guys are ridiculous. You will do anything to avoid simply admitting error. You start by saying "I did not say that." And now you want to change definitions.

I presented a definition of rape some time back, from the Oxford unabridged dictionary, which said it was forcible sexual intercourse. So, to avoid admitting error, you now want to change the entire argument by saying that the definition is wrong. Duh !

Well, of course if you change definitions, you change an argument. But it is now a different discussion. I am not interested in trying to argue about sex crimes that are different to rape as defined by the Oxford dictionary. Because it is not the same discussion. We might as well be arguing about why people rob banks.

As I keep saying, why not exhibit a bit of moral fiber, instead of the pusillanimous refusal to admit error.


On page 6 you posted
"I have a copy of the Collins complete unabridged dictionary. It's definition of rape is :

THE OFFENSE OF FORCING A PERSON, ESPECIALLY A WOMAN, TO SUBMIT TO SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AGAINST THAT PERSONS WILL.
I guess you are following your admonition that words can mean whatever you want them to?

Even this limited definition does not even address the cause of the DESIRE to force the intercourse. You make that up from what little you provide.........just like your "data driven science conclusion" linking sex drive to the age of rape victims and calling anything you want thereafter (as words mean whatever you want them to, because that is what LIARS and people of low repute do: use words accurately so as to be understood by anyone with a dictionary).

"Seeing the horror presented to him, .........bobbo walks carefully backwards, stepping out of the room......." Where did I put that wooden stake?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:03 am

TJ

The fact that drugs suppressing libido stops rape demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that I am correct. Your refusal to accept this is an indictment of your ability to think rationally.

Bobbo

I did make a mistake in writing Oxford instead of Collins. But it does not matter. The reason I used that definition is that I have the Collins unabridged dictionary, so it was the definition available to me. If you want to change the definition, then we might as well all stop this thread, because you change the entire argument. It is the same as changing the argument to what causes one man to shoot another. Totally different.

Do you dispute that the sex drive is the basic cause of rape, defined as forcible sexual intercourse ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:16 am

As posted, that you various agree with and then disagree with as you are now: I think the "sex drive" is a necessary but not sufficient drive/motive in many if not most rapes but not at all involved in a minority of other rapes as also defined in more expansive/modern dictionaries.......you know........after the Edwardian Age.

I prefer complex and nuanced over simple and incomplete. I think the exact words used in thinking and posting are the heart and soul of what is meant. Sloppy incorrect thinking such as you present is cured by adherence to standard norms...not throwing those norms out in favor of whatever you think is responsive for the moment.

Too much of your recent postings, most of this thread...........are just silly. Back yourself off. Admit that YOU are off on a bit of a tangent. But you are just digging the hole deeper rather than correcting yourself. Collins/Oxford isn't the issue at all. A simple mistake that you recognized and corrected. ............... ha, ha.........now: apply to everything else you have posted.

Go ahead. It only hurts the first few times you find out you aren't perfect.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:33 am

Bobbo

I have already agreed, many times, that there are other influences on rape.
But my thesis is that the basic cause is the sex drive. I have demonstrated this. Accepting that there are other influences, will you agree that the sex drive is the basic cause ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:38 am

Does "basic cause" mean anything different than what I just posted? If so, whats the difference?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:17 pm

Stop evading the issue, Bobbo.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:32 pm

You ........................... fug it.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

The fact that drugs suppressing libido stops rape demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that I am correct. Your refusal to accept this is an indictment of your ability to think rationally. ...


Lance

The fact that a noose that kills the rapist and prevents recurrence demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that I am correct. Your refusal to accept this is an indictment of your ability to think rationally. :roll:

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:10 pm

Some observations from Professor Don Gubrin, architect of Ministry of Justice chemical castration program in the UK.

Don Gubrin wrote:There’s a number of things that drive behaviour in anybody and that includes sex offenders, so they are our thoughts, our beliefs, our whole thinking structure, emotional management and the way that we respond to emotions, our general self-management an with sex offenders there’s an additional component of sexual drive and arousal.


The jargon is ‘cognitive distortion’, so you adjust your thinking pattern to justify behaviours that you want to engage in.


Well, I don’t think there’s any evidence that stopping medication makes people more likely to offend. What sometimes happens is that people make the decision that they want to offend and then they stop the medication to allow that to happen.


(bolding added)

Source

I hope that Lance will note that the decision to offend is in the absence of a sex drive.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:23 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

The fact that drugs suppressing libido stops rape demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that I am correct.


You have no proof of this.

People also rape out of revenge or sadism without arousal.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:25 pm

Oleg.

I seriously doubt that a rapist on chemicals to suppress his libido stops taking them in order to rape. After all, he is already aware of the dire legal and penal consequences. Much more likely he misses the sexual feeling and wants that feeling back. Since most people are self deluders (including my current debate opponents), the ex rapist may convince himself he can regain his sexuality without resorting to rape. Despite his delusion , the end result is that when he has his sex drive, he rapes. Without the sex drive, there is no rape. Therefore the sex drive is the basic cause of rape.

Certainly there are influences, which I have said all along. But there is a difference between a basic cause and an influence. The evidence I have posted is sufficient beyond reasonable doubt to show that the sex drive is the basic cause of rape.

Among my debate opponents I see serious lack of moral courage here. Anyone who can face his own weaknesses would have admitted being wrong. But moral cowardice prevents people admitting to fault.

Accepted that rape has many influences, but admit that the basic cause is the sex drive, and thus show you are not a blithering moral coward, desperately and childishly refusing ever to admit making an error.
Last edited by Lance Kennedy on Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:31 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: ... Among my debate opponents I see serious lack of moral courage here. Anyone who can face his own weaknesses would have admitted being wrong. But moral cowardice prevents people admitting to fault.


Lance, ... I see serious lack of moral courage here. Anyone who can face his own weaknesses would have admitted being wrong. But moral cowardice prevents you admitting to fault.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:46 pm

TJ

I have proven my thesis.
I admit to all kinds of fault. I am a very sinful person. I have not been to church for years.

But......

On this issue I am correct. The basic cause of rape is the sex drive. Not only is that obvious to anyone with half a brain, but it has now been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by hard evidence.

Do you deny this ? Do you have the sheer stupidity to tell me that the sex drive is not the basic cause of rape, accepting that I agree there are other influences ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:21 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

I have proven my thesis.
I admit to all kinds of fault. I am a very sinful person. I have not been to church for years.

But......

On this issue I am correct. The basic cause of rape is the sex drive. Not only is that obvious to anyone with half a brain, but it has now been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by hard evidence.

Do you deny this ? Do you have the sheer stupidity to tell me that the sex drive is not the basic cause of rape, accepting that I agree there are other influences ?


Yes indeed Lance, I have serious doubts that your contention is correct - that is, I doubt that the sex drive is the primary motivator for rape. Of course I do acknowledge that it is generally, but not always, present. But for many, if not most rapes, I suspect that there are various stronger motivators amoung what you acknowledge as other influencers. I do not agree that you have proven your thesis, and except for you - no other contributor to this thread believes that you have either. If I am wrong on that, I am sure they will correct me.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:46 am

So evidence means nothing to you ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:31 am

basic: 1. Reduced to the simplest and most significant form possible without loss of generality

2. Serving as a base or starting point
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:55 am

Starting point.

With sex drive, rape is possible. Without it, rape is not possible.

The primary influence on that is the nature of the person who might (or might not) be a rapist. To be a decent human means no rape. The rapists are the nasty ones. Associated with that nastiness is what it takes to sexually arouse the rapist so that he then carries out a rape.

But those are the influences. The basic or starting cause is the sex drive.

All normal young men will have a sex drive, and it usually is quite powerful. All normal heterosexual young men will occasionally think about carrying out a rape. The decent ones, of course, will never actually do it. But it is quite normal for even the decent ones to think about it.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:33 am

If you stay in the batters' box, you'll never make a home run.

As with everything that has been stated 3-4 times, you can be so basic as to be of little to no utility....or you can widen your appreciation and make an impact. You choose, to be irrelevant....any then try to bully/embarrass others into agreeing with you.

Bad Lance.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:35 am

Lance, you think it takes moral courage to label rapists as sex-crazed?
I think it takes far more courage and honesty to stay open to all the reasons why people hurt others in sexual ways.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:44 am

EM

This is a simple argument.
Sure, staying open to all the influences is fine. But this is a simple disagreement. Are you rational enough to see the truth, even when the data is given, or are you an idiot ? That is the question.

We could debate all the different ways rapists are influenced and discuss ways society might act to counter rape. But that is not what happened in this argument. It was very simple. I said that the basic cause of rape was the sex drive, and the idiots argued against that.

The simple question now is whether you are an idiot, or smart enough to see what is correct.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:23 am

Lance, the truth is that there is no scientific consensus on either your proposed definition of rape, nor arousal being the defining motivation for it

What you have is an opinion on the matter. Don't expect everyone to share it, just because you are convinced of it.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:02 pm

Reality, EM, is based on data, not opinion. The data shows that with a sex drive, rape happens. When the sex drive is suppressed, rape does not happen. That is data, not opinion.

The idea that rape is a result of a need for power and domination is an opinion . Do you see the difference ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:37 pm

What data?
You know how many rapes happen daily worldwide?
You think they correspond 1:1 with a study?

Lance, is this somehow personal for you?
You are terribly upset when all I'm saying is: "yes, but not always".
Why is this so unacceptable to you?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:21 pm

Lance - on the data... please consider this: I have 100% correlation - absolute proof - that dead men don`t rape. Never even once. So why can`t you accept that my contention is true - that the main motivator for rape is being alive? Data based, not opinion. :roll:

I won`t provide any links to support this breakthrough finding and demonstrate proof, but then neither have you. However, neither will I be calling you, or anybody else who might disagree with me - an idiot, or use any other of the slew of disparaging names you have used. Please feel free to believe that my contention is simply my opinion, as I do yours.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:06 pm

Tj is ignoring the overwhelming documentary evidence for vampires.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:52 pm

EM

The data is definitely 1 for 1.

In every case, when a man has no sex drive, he does not rape. Whether because he is a total eunuch, or asexual, or on libido suppressing drugs.

A person, though, who is merely hung up on power and control, or cruelty, or violence, may or may not be a rapist. So those things do not cause rape. (This is not a good argument, of course, and I can see its weakness. But it is the kind of argument Nikki used, so why should I not use her style of invalid argument also ?)

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:20 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Tj is ignoring the overwhelming documentary evidence for vampires.


Yup - you got me there - but please do let me double down and say that once they have a stake thru the heart, they are truly dead, and not before. It all depends upon my definition of `dead`... ;)

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:30 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: In every case, when a man has no sex drive, he does not rape.

fifth time: plethy and EEG. So far, totally ignored by Lance with his desire for circular definitions not even recognized.

Lance: I dont' want to try and look it up, but what again is your explanation that the great majority of people with sex drives DON'T commit rape? If sex is "the drive" basic or otherwise...why isn't rape the general rule? Why isn't the fact that it is not the general rule make you look for something just a shade deeper?

Here's "a drive" that explains more of the total picture than your fixation on "basic sex drive": all forms of rape and violence is CAUSED BY: suboptimal socialization modeling.

Pragmatism: paying attention to what works. What doesn't work? Calling anything that everybody has as the cause for anything else that only occurs a minority of the time. Plug in the formula for any concept you wish.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:05 am

Bobbo

Plethy and EEG is irrelevant. Sex arousal involves erection and a change in thinking. Sure. Now tell me something I do not know. Even more important. Tell me something relevant to the discussion.

And please do not resurrect Nikki's bull dust logic. Yuk.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:50 am

Wut? Ok...........I'll give it one go, even though I'm repeating myself and the link (?) from memory BECAUSE it is so well generally known: Plethy measures penis arousal often used to show sexual arousal. But sexual arousal is a brain mediated/causual state...the penis being only a tool. When you hook up an EEG to a brain and that brain engages in sex very particular areas of the brain are active while others are not. Now show pictures of of porn and those same areas of the brain light up and don't light up.

Now: put a serial rapist on the EEG and show him the porn and those areas of the brain DON'T light up. Areas previously inactive are now glowing red. What this shows is penis arousal without a sexual motive. A deviation from basic motivation. Gee....did I set you up by calling the aroused penis being "sexually aroused?" Is your fixation that simple, direct, and limited?

you commit several serial logical errors, already point out to you. If A causes B and C causes B and you have an example of C, how do you determine what caused it? The application: if sex arousal causes an erection, and a compulsion to dominate causes an erection, and you have a rape occur....what caused the rape? (skipping over several errors of the undistributed middle....)
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:38 am

Bobbo

All you are showing is that rapists are sometimes sexually aroused by non standard stimuli. We already knew that. Ho hum.

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ElectricMonk
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:21 am

Counterexamples to Lance's absolutist argument:

- rape for profit (porn industry)
- rape for dominance (prisons)
- rape as punishment (religion/honor)
- rape out of peer pressure (fraternities, gangs)
- rape as a weapon (ethnic cleansing)

In none of these cases is arousal the determining factor.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:49 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

All you are showing is that rapists are sometimes sexually aroused by non standard stimuli. We already knew that. Ho hum.

No Lance. Science shows us what is happening......unlike what goat herders from 2000 years ago thought was obvious.

If you weren't a long time poster here, I would think you were a college kid in Psyche 101 running a "study" to see how long monkeys will respond to an untenable position just because it is put out there and clung to regardless of proof, evidence and argument applied against it.

aka: EM's last post. Bet you don't respond to it at all.

What this all shows for the 9th time is YOU define sex drive as anything that results in penis insertion. aka: defining the cause of something by it result. But results can have various causes. Gravity is the "basic drive" causing building collapse. But was it inferior concrete, not enough rivets in the connecting plates, or an earthquake? Same exact result...different causation.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:51 pm

On EM's last post.

Each of those examples requires an erect penis. That is, sexual arousal. Without that, there is no rape.

Of course, people rationalise their motives. For example, rape for honor. A guy doing this does the rape because the victim is sexy and he wants to, but pretends otherwise.

Of course, there are blithering idiots everywhere who are so incredibly stooopid that they believe rationalisations. Duh !

The prison rape, if male on male, requires homosexual tendencies, or else the erection would not happen. Thus a different kind of sexual arousal.

The porn pretend rape requires sexual arousal. I read somewhere that the prime requirement to be a male porno star is the ability to maintain an erection, which is not easy under the highly varied conditions of film making. Sexual arousal is not easy under less than sexy conditions, but some guys can do it.

But the bottom line is that only an idiot believes these rapes do not include sexual arousal. Because, duh, a male needs sexual arousal to get that erection.


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