"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:32 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:nasty ad hominem BS
Last time, Lance. Cut the {!#%@}. If you're unable to carry on a debate without lowering yourself to repeatedly insulting your opponent, then you don't belong here. You treat wooists better than you treat me. Try being an adult, please.

Also, try being a skeptic...skeptics provide evidence for their hypotheses. You have not.
Where is your evidence?!

Lance Kennedy wrote:X causing Y, but not ALWAYS causing Y is just the normal state of things.
*smh* You have repeatedly stated that sex drive is the cause of rape. If it is the cause of rape, then sex drive will always result in rape. Clearly, it is not the cause of rape. (And I just quoted you saying that it is...multiple times.)
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:37 pm

X is necessary but not sufficient is what you said, Bobbo. Not Nikki.

Actually, I do not disagree with that. The sex drive is the basic cause of rape, and is thus necessary. It is not sufficient, because the guy also has to be an arsehole, however you define arsehole. So necessary but not sufficient is probably not a bad way of describing it.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:45 pm

Dubious wrote:I find it really pathetic that one should be a feminist to give the other half its due. It's always been half & half like the cream you put in your coffee, not two-thirds with a one-third leftover.
It depends on your definition of "feminist." To me, the term simply refers to a person who believes women should have the same rights as men. I completely reject the idea that misandry must go hand-in-hand with feminism. When the oppressed group is merely interested in becoming the oppressor, the group has lost its way.

I've read comments made by self-described feminists that have nauseated me. For example, I recently read comments from several who evinced obvious joy in response to an article about men being raped in prison. That kind of attitude isn't remotely acceptable. It's inhumane to react to the abuse of anyone with joy.

I was called a "gender traitor" by more than one self-described feminist, because I supported Bernie Sanders during the primary...as if not only my feminism, but also my chromosomes were invalidated for not supporting the female candidate. :roll:

Honestly, I prefer the moniker "humanist" over "feminist." All human beings should have the same rights, regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, ability, orientation, nationality, education, religion, socio-economic status, etc.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:51 pm

Well Nikki

Nice to see something you write that I whole heartedly agree with.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Dubious » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:42 pm

Dubious wrote:I find it really pathetic that one should be a feminist to give the other half its due. It's always been half & half like the cream you put in your coffee, not two-thirds with a one-third leftover.

Nikki Nyx wrote:It depends on your definition of "feminist." To me, the term simply refers to a person who believes women should have the same rights as men.

..and that’s precisely where the quandary lies, at least for me, since to believe otherwise is an aberration which the word “feminist” doesn’t make up for. It doesn’t bridge the gap of an absurdity which believes one part is inferior to another when there’s only two parts to the whole enchilada.

Nikki Nyx wrote:Honestly, I prefer the moniker "humanist" over "feminist."

That is a more accurate term being all-inclusive without naming differences regarding obvious and overt fundamentals. Besides, if there is ONE factor that makes us all equal it’s that we’re all equally obnoxious.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:55 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki

Crappy illogic.

For Finagle sake, realise this. X causing Y, but not ALWAYS causing Y is just the normal state of things. Try getting your logic straight. Currently you are looking like an idiot.


If x sometimes causes y, then there must be some criteria A under which x does not cause y, and some criteria B under which x does cause y. What are those criteria?

Once you've sorted that out, it must be concluded that it is the criteria B which are causing y, with x as an intermediate step. If y is sometimes caused by something not involving x, then the presence of x must either be a coincidence, or a vector rather than a cause.

Sex drive is not a reliable predictor of rape. It is a vector, not a cause.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:23 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: So necessary but not sufficient is probably not a bad way of describing it.

Holy Crap............how many repetitions to get you to move an inch??????

But, that was only to coax you along. The next step, evidently a bigger one you probably can't make, is to recognize that while many rapes are because of sex plus lack of control and other co-initiators, such is only one of several "factors" that cause rape.........where sex is a tool, and not the drive at all.

Yes Lance....most hooman behavior is: "multi-factorial." Its a nice tension: how we are all alike and yet different at the same time. No easy rules.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:24 am

Bobbo

I said from the beginning that it is multi factorial. My initial proposal was that for rape to happen took two things. Sex drive and an arsehole.

Of course, there are many kinds of arsehole.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:36 am

Nope. It doesn’t require a sex drive. It can just be evil.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:46 am

TJ

If no sex drive is needed, please tell me of the last time a eunuch committed RAPE?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:32 am

Lance: you are goofing on us aren't you.................. Just can't hold a contrary notion in your mind for more than one post. Rather amusing except for............. you know.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Poodle » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:36 am

Oh dear! Lance, it's time to do some homework. Eunuchs can, could, do and did take part in full sexual activity. That being the case, it is fully possible for a eunuch to commit rape. They do not and did not need their testicles to do so. All that's needed is a functional penis, and eunuchs have those (well, when I say those, I mean one each. It is a debatable point whether any reduction of sexual urges subsequent to castration would be enough to produce complete lack of interest, but it is not true that that reduction occurs as a matter of consequence.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:03 am

Poodle

A eunuch could commit sexual molestation, and attack a woman with some kind of dildo, but cannot rape. His penis will not work that way. It requires a functioning sex drive (which includes a functioning penis) to commit rape.

Rape requires a sex drive. As Bobbo said, necessary but not sufficient. The rapist also needs to be an arsehole, of one kind or another.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Poodle » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:27 am


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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:34 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Poodle

A eunuch could commit sexual molestation, and attack a woman with some kind of dildo, but cannot rape. His penis will not work that way. It requires a functioning sex drive (which includes a functioning penis) to commit rape.

Rape requires a sex drive. As Bobbo said, necessary but not sufficient. The rapist also needs to be an arsehole, of one kind or another.


Use of a dildo, or some other physical object - is still rape.

Rape is defined in most jurisdictions as sexual intercourse, or other forms of sexual penetration,...

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:37 am

TJ

If you use that definition, sure.
I do not. Rape, as far as my discussion here is concerned, is the penetration of the penis into a vagina against the will of the woman involved. If you disagree with that, we cannot continue the discussion, since it becomes just semantics. Such arguments are pointless.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:03 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

If you use that definition, sure.
I do not. Rape, as far as my discussion here is concerned, is the penetration of the penis into a vagina against the will of the woman involved. If you disagree with that, we cannot continue the discussion, since it becomes just semantics. Such arguments are pointless.


Sooo... your logic depends upon a restricted definition? Cool....

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:58 am

All arguments, TJ, depend on definitions. All arguments can be twisted around by changing definitions. If you want to twist definitions, then fine. But it changes absolutely nothing. You can redefine rape to mean torture and say that means rape has nothing to do with sex. But it does not change the basic truth.

Rape, meaning a man forcing a woman to accept sex, is motivated by the sex drive. If rape is redefined as fisticuffs, then it is not motivated by sex. Big deal. My point remains unchanged by you twisting definitions.

PS

I decided not to rely on your definition. After all, there are thousands of definitions in thousands of dictionaries. So I thought I would look it up. Google seemed very reluctant to give a definition of rape, so I went to the book shelf where I have a copy of the Collins complete unabridged dictionary. It's definition of rape is :

THE OFFENSE OF FORCING A PERSON, ESPECIALLY A WOMAN, TO SUBMIT TO SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AGAINST THAT PERSONS WILL.

So I accuse you of dishonesty. Selecting a definition to support your argument. Since there are thousands of such definitions, that can be done. I will stick to the Collins definition, which has a very good reputation.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:05 am

I simply used google and took the first response - Wiki. The second entry - Dictionary.com mirrors Wiki. I did not seek out definitions to support a position or argument. No dishonesty employed.

That said, and with your post above - I have now looked online for `law dictionaries`, finding Black`s Law, Find Law, Merriam-Webster, and Law.com - all of which use a close variant of your Collins dictionary. Two of the references did mention that `states` (presumably US) have broadened the definition in regards to gender roles and methods, which possibly supports the Wiki entry.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Poodle » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:26 am

I'm a bit surprised at you, Lance, and wonder what motivation drives you to completely ignore what is, in fact, the truth.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Io » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:23 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:If you use that definition, sure.
I do not. Rape, as far as my discussion here is concerned, is the penetration of the penis into a vagina against the will of the woman involved. If you disagree with that, we cannot continue the discussion, since it becomes just semantics. Such arguments are pointless.


Whoa! So this long frustrangry thread was just caused by one party using the wrong definition of rape??

So it looks like we're all in agreement. Rape isn't solely motivated by a sex drive.
The specific kind of rape that is motivated by a sex drive is always motivated by a sex drive, albeit with other factors. The problem is Lance's hasn't realised that we're addressing the full scope of rape whereas Lance isn't.

Now that's settled I'm sure there'll be no more arguments. 8-)

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:31 am

I'm confused. Let's accept Lance's position that if you chop the testicles off that the sex drive disappears. Then, what we have is eunuchs sneaking around in their sneaky ways using dildos, branding irons, bananas, or flacid to "penetrate" women.

............................................. but for what reason? Sadly, Lance almost never answers a direct question, so I will answer "logically" from Lances viewpoint that the eunuch is doing it for some other reason.

Now......take a non-eunuch who has the same other reason, but uses his penis as a dildo. And Violet: we got that "other factor" on full display, assuming the lights are on.

Fact is though, many eunuchs still have a sex drive....especially when the ball chopping comes after puberty. Seems the brain remembers and enjoys what the gonads commanded.

It is indeed all DEFINITIONAL..................and all multi-factorial. As Lance doesn't deal well with either recognition, the full complexity of any hooman interaction will be lost on Lance who will busy himself with bean counting.

Ain't that a Bitch.............a waste of a brain smart enough to count beans? ............. I think so.

Edit: AFTER thinking about Rose McGowan ((I do wish her the best life she can have)), I wonder about eunuchs. IIRC there is some old Arabian Tale of a horny eunuch who was quite popular in the harem. He had sex all the time which pleased the ladies as they could not get preggers and beheaded. forget if he could still get an erections ((I assume the general rule is you can't....but my recharged battery is still working on day 12 so who knows how exceptions to the rule arise?.....overactive memory? Phantom Limb of the best kind???? who knows?????. But it made me think of the Chinese Finger Trap and if the two stories were somehow related? Yes.........a full appreciation of hooman variability.

Few rules apply (all the time). Ain't that a Bitch?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:34 am

Ha, ha.................I wonder what Rose McGowan could add to this discussion ............if she could stop vomiting long enough to contribute?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:36 pm

Bobbo

On eunuchs.
You have one point correct. There are "false" eunuchs. They are guys who lost their family jewels AFTER developing. Usually some kind of accident. They are not true eunuchs (almost like the true Scotsman) because they developed sexually first. The true eunuch lost his testicles BEFORE puberty, and thus never developed. The true eunuch cannot get an erection but the false one sometimes can.

But of course, eunuchs, true or false, do not go around sexually molesting women. Except maybe for a tiny minority who happen to be totally insane. Why should any of the sane ones do that ?

Io

This argument was not based on a fake definition . I made my view clear from very early on, that rape was based on the sex drive, but required other factors, such as a rapist who was basically evil. The argument continues because my opponents are still choosing to believe that which is politically correct, rather than that which is scientifically correct.

Sexual molestation, like forcing a horrible dildo or dildo substitute into a woman, can be motivated by sadism. But that is not rape. Rape requires an erection, which requires sexual arousal, which requires a sex drive. If you want to broaden your definition of rape to include sexual molestation , you can make whatever assertion you like, but since the definition is wrong, you will be wrong.

TJ

OK. Sorry for suggesting dishonesty. I accept that you simply used the first definition you came across. Definitions can be a bummer.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Io » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:04 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Io

This argument was not based on a fake definition . I made my view clear from very early on, that rape was based on the sex drive, but required other factors, such as a rapist who was basically evil. The argument continues because my opponents are still choosing to believe that which is politically correct, rather than that which is scientifically correct.

Sexual molestation, like forcing a horrible dildo or dildo substitute into a woman, can be motivated by sadism. But that is not rape. Rape requires an erection, which requires sexual arousal, which requires a sex drive. If you want to broaden your definition of rape to include sexual molestation , you can make whatever assertion you like, but since the definition is wrong, you will be wrong.


Alright, now you're misquoting me - I'll be gracious and not say its deliberate. At no point did I say fake. I said 'wrong' (colloquial, not literal) and I implied 'incomplete'. Clearly you're not going to accept that this whole topic is arguing at cross purposes and acquiesce to a draw, and you'll just continue to repeatedly restate your same points in the same way without any attempt to resolve the impasse, as I've tried to do.
Stating that my definition of rape is wrong is wrong, and that's not colloquial. Let's not forget that in English the dictionary is descriptive, not prescriptive. It explains how words are used, not how they ought to be used. A better source for the definition of rape would be an intelligent distillation of definitions from multiple sources, including a legal one.
A dishonest argument will go nowhere, and that's where this has gone.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:57 pm

None of y'all understand what a definitional argument is. Once that FACT (and its almost always present) is identified, then it is incumbent on the proposer to state the definition they are using. After that others can suggest or bargain for some other definition but the proposed/OP definition should be used.........or there is no "engagement." Lance does this all the time. He will quote and borrow from some new/other definition, but immediately go back to whatever he first posted.............ie: stuck in a rut/inflexible.

Its a process.....doesn't take that much attention, but more attention than some have................ Say it with me: "Ain't that a Bitch?".............and yes, it is.

Thing is.......when rape will be shown as not coming from a sex drive, Lance refuses to recognize the Black Swan and reverts to repeating his mantra. but note the mantra: "necessary but not sufficient" is "right".....but rape is still caused by the sex drive. Lance doesn't see the disconnect. Can't understand what "nbns" MEANS.

That is also a failure to engage. All we have to do is:

Just Look.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:51 pm

Io

I did not suggest you said fake.

Bobbo
I gave the definition of rape from the Collins unabridged dictionary.

It is very simple.

Sex drive plus suitable stimulation creates sexual arousal, including erection. Sexual arousal in the wrong person leads to rape. So the basic cause of rape is the sex drive. All the other suggested causes are not the basic cause of the male erection, which is needed for the sex act, including rape.

You can argue that a rapist may have an unusual way of achieving sexual arousal, and that is sometimes correct. Irrelevant but correct. You can argue (as Nikki did) that a normal guy who is sexually aroused will not rape. Also irrelevant since we are not talking of normal guys, but rapists.

It is so simple. The basic cause of rape is the sex drive. Those who prefer to cling to false explanations are the proverbial ostritch with its head in the proverbial sand.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Io » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:03 pm

What are you talking about? Normal guys who rape are rapists. They're not a separate species.

What you're describing is certainly plausible. What you're describing is certainly the most common and best understood cause for rape. What you are missing is that it's not the entirety of cases.
Consider mental instability. No sexual motive or component. Just brain crosswired.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:19 pm

All of which is true, Io.

But the basic cause is still the sex drive. Mental instability and brain cross wiring can affect sexual behaviour, and turn a person who might otherwise have a normal and decent sex life into a rapist. But the basic cause of rape is still the sex drive.

It is like saying that the motivational power for the internal combustion engine is burning a liquid fuel. Totally true. But the way this is done is infinitely variable, with a plethora of different cars, trucks, boats, and so on , plus many different engine types. But all that complication does not alter the fact that the basic cause of that power to do work is from burning a liquid fuel.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Io » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:22 pm

Ok. This is going nowhere.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:28 pm

......................and...........................still no links.

Always telling.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:46 am

Up thread I hinted the absurdity that the cause of rape may as well be described as the rapist being alive - plus of course additional factors, such as hasn`t been neutered, capable of unzipping his trousers, etc., etc. - but just as with saying sex drive is the main motivating factor - it tells us nothing at all about rape. Or maybe I should say – nothing significant about rape.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:55 am

It is a starting point, TJ.

If you start with a fallacy, you cannot progress. Start with what is true, and you can make progress.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:06 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:It is a starting point, TJ.

If you start with a fallacy, you cannot progress. Start with what is true, and you can make progress.


Sooo... should we be starting with the fact that males are born? That there are two sexes?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Io » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:10 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:If you start with a fallacy, you cannot progress. Start with what is true, and you can make progress.


Couldn't agree more. If only you had.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:09 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:It is a starting point, TJ.

If you start with a fallacy, you cannot progress. Start with what is true, and you can make progress.

But that is the issue Lance. You don't go past your starting point. You give some lip service now and then but then flip-flop back to your starting point.

If you are making a conscious decision to negate all additional information.......then your presence on this issue is a fraud. If you can widen your appreciation, even change it a bit, then we all can learn from one another. If that is the case, then rephrasing the argument sometimes gives you the "new words" to understand the subject in a new way. This is the basis for you calling my posts confusing or unintelligible........because communication is a two way street...even when leading to a dead end.

I thought the characterization of sex can be a drive, but it can also be a tool raised several times above would give you some new words to widen your appreciation.........actually move off of your position of being wrong or just mostly irrelevant depending on how you last phrased your position.

Lance.......consensus doesn't prove anything, but when EVERYONE says you are wrong.........perhaps the issue is worth a second more plunging analysis?

I think so.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:22 pm

I do not think everyone is saying I am wrong.
What is happening is that people are flipping over to other factors, which are influences but not the basic cause. We all know there are other factors. I suspect that most people know the basic cause is the sex drive, and that those other things are modifiers. But they are regularly side tracked.

I agree that there are other factors. Researchers have found that some rapists are turned on by violence. Others by hatred. Others by delusions. Etc. But they all have to be sexual first. Otherwise there would be no rape. Molestation, assorted violent acts, and other things horrible, maybe, but no rape. As I pointed out, eunuchs do not rape. Nor do asexual men.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:31 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I do not think everyone is saying I am wrong.
What is happening is that people are flipping over to other factors, which are influences but not the basic cause. We all know there are other factors. I suspect that most people know the basic cause is the sex drive males being alive, and that those other things are modifiers. But they are regularly side tracked.

I agree that there are other factors. Researchers have found that some rapists are turned on by violence. Others by hatred. Others by delusions. Etc. But they all have to be sexual alive first. Otherwise there would be no rape. Molestation, assorted violent acts, and other things horrible, maybe, but no rape. As I pointed out, eunuchs do not rape. Nor do asexual men.


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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:52 pm

Ha, ha......circular arguments with all flip flop and nuance ignored except to spout them in passing. Quite a strong argument................... when its yours.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:36 am

I despair.

People who claim to be rational thinkers claiming that a sexual act has nothing to do with sex.

What moronicity !


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