"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

How should we think about weird things?
User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8778
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:43 pm

Lance, the purpose of researching and discussing rape is to understand the drivers and thus what can be done to limit it – at least for most people who believe it to be abhorrent.

The rapist may indeed justify his actions by saying, `It is just normal; I have a strong sex drive.` or some other justifying self-excusing crap.

So we look further – to those factors, which in addition to being alive and having a sex drive, support rape. No researcher thinks rape has nothing to do with sex, being alive, or having a sex drive, but they look further – and they find different motivators and other factors as Nikki has pointed out, which `cause` rape. Saying that rape is caused by power run amok (if that is the feminist scientist position you address), isn`t a denial that the rapist was alive nor a claim that he had no sex drive, but rather a focus on the factors that need to be addressed thru education, laws, societal change, etc. – and can indeed be addressed, whereas removal of life itself, or the sex drive for all potential rapists just doesn`t jump to the top of the list of corrective options. Saying that rape is primarily caused by the sex drive, plus a few minor additional causes – says nothing helpful.

Edit - spelling
Last edited by TJrandom on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:25 pm

I am not denying that viewpoint, TJ.

My argument is entirely against the morons who claim sex drive has nothing to do with rape.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:34 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I am not denying that viewpoint, TJ.

My argument is entirely against the morons who claim sex drive has nothing to do with rape.

........but YOU are the only person dancing with that Straw Man...............and thats NOT what you argue.

Just Look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fer Christ's Sake!!!))

Lance.............you've worn me out. Its now all the literature and everyone but you posting on this issue. Buy a clue.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:22 pm

Bobbo

You have denied the sex drive connection many times.

The fact is that rape begins with sex drive. Without sex drive, there is no rape. Rapists are driven by their sexual impulses, even when those impulses are stimulated by weird stuff. It is still the sex drive.

Admit that, Bobbo, and we have no dispute.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:10 pm

derp.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:12 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:My point is that rape is the result of the sex drive.
I'm going to play devil's advocate. For the moment, let's imagine that you are correct, that the male sex drive is the overriding cause of rape. Now, let's formulate some inescapable conclusions based on your theory to see how it plays out.

1. If the male sex drive is the overriding cause of rape, then all men with healthy libidos are rapists. Q.E.D.
2. If the male sex drive is the overriding cause of rape, then the normal male libido precludes the ability to reason logically, to plan, to make decisions, to empathize, to integrate experiential memories, to suppress anti-social behavior, and to consider the consequences of actions. In effect, testosterone disables the frontal lobe, causing 'testeria.' Q.E.D.
3. If the male sex drive is the overriding cause of rape, then all men with healthy libidos lack the ability to exert control over their behavior while sexually aroused. Q.E.D.

Basically, your theory—that the male sex drive is the overriding cause of rape—states that all men with healthy libidos, when sexually aroused, are, as you so succinctly put it, 'arseholes.'

Now, let's go back to the evidence I presented, which comprised factual data derived from empiric experiments. Clearly, the normal male sex drive is NOT the overriding cause of rape, as evidenced by the following:
• All men are not rapists.
• Nearly half of rape victims are children, middle-aged women, and elderly women.
• Rapists sometimes use inanimate objects to rape.
• Overwhelmingly, rapists don't view women as human beings, but as objects, due to a cognitive dysfunction. Rapists do not recognize women via the brain structure that identifies fellow human beings, but via the brain structure that identifies objects. Further, only sexualized females are objectified; sexualized males are not.
• Non-rapists who are habitually exposed to the objectification of women, who experience anger toward women, who believe they have imbibed alcohol, who are told it's normal to become sexually aroused by rape stimuli, who habitually view pornography depicting non-consenting sex, or who believe women enjoy rape consistently begin to exhibit rape behavior (an inability to distinguish consenting from non-consenting clues, to inhibit their own sexual arousal, to objectify women).
• Rapists are able to respond with both hostile aggression and sexual arousal simultaneously.
• Rapists are unable to inhibit sexual arousal in response to rape stimuli.

That you continue to discard the factual data based on empiric experiments shows you are strongly biased on this issue, and that your opinion is unsupported. As a skeptic, when you discover you harbor a bias, the rational thing to do is to examine the available data and modify your opinion. Insisting on maintaining an opinion in the face of contradicting facts is not being a skeptic; it's being a wooist.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:54 pm

Io wrote:The contention is the notion that the sex drive is always a factor. It should be easy to comprehend that heterosexual male/male rape (genital or object) is not primarily sex-driven. It's not a stretch to think that other forms of rape might also not involve a sexual driver.
Yes, exactly. Is the rape of an elderly woman caused by the rapist's sexual arousal? Doubt it. Is it the male sex drive that prompts the rapist to rape with an inanimate object? Again, I doubt it. Lance's contention is based on the fact that the scant majority of rape victims (54%) fall within the 18-34 age group, while ignoring the 46% of victims who do not.

Io wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:
Io wrote:I'd also like to voice a mild disagreement with a couple of Nikki's points, however.

The cause is the fact that the rapist does not consider his victim to be human.
Only a minor issue this as I'm assuming this was exaggeration for emphasis, but I don't think a rapist considers their victim to be non-human, even figuratively. I just think they have no respect for their humanity, at least at that point.
Here, I was not exaggerating for emphasis. The studies I posted above show "cognitive processing of sexualized female bodies as object-like," and that this happens because "the perception of sexualized women deploys cognitive mechanisms specific to object perception."

Io wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:experiments proved that men are taught to rape. They're steeped in a society that consistently objectifies women, from advertising.
I think that this is too much of a simplification. It's clear that people (and not just men; although predominately men, granted) learn that others can be objectified, and that facilitates the lack of empathy required to rape. To say that men are taught is probably not correct as this implies directed effort (on the part of advertisers in Nikki's example) to encourage rapists.
I agree with your quibble here. Perhaps I should have said "men learn how to rape via our culture being steeped in the sexual objectification of women." I didn't intent to imply some sort of inane patriarchal conspiracy; I do not now, nor have I ever, worn a tin foil hat...lol. The issue here is really that our society views it as acceptable to sexually objectify women for any and all reasons.

Io wrote:Also, despite no definitive evidence (I've not looked) I'll go on record as saying that rape was definitely a thing before advertising was a thing.
I agree that this is most likely the case. However, our culture has a long history of objectifying women; even the idea of denying equal rights to women objectifies them, because it reduces them to the status of animals subject to their baser instincts and unable to reason logically. "We can't possibly allow the dear things to vote! Or work. Or own property. They need men to guide them through life." That kind of attitude.

Io wrote:I'd also like to point out that objectification in and of itself isn't a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing in conjunction with the inability to change your attitude with a change of context, and continued objectification once other factors come into play. For example it's fine to objectify a porn actress when the context is 'watching a porn film for 10 minutes, er I mean an hour. or two. yes, two. beaucoup de stamina'. However it becomes wrong if you continue to treat the same actress as an object if you bump into her in a café and strike up a conversation.
I agree with you in theory, but should note that the studies I posted above showed that sexualized men are not objectified by either men or women, and that non-rapists exposed to the sexual objectification of women consistently begin to exhibit rape behavior. So, regardless of my ability (and, obviously yours) to override the objectification, it remains a problem.

Io wrote:And I'm not sure all of it makes sense. Well I'll post it anyway and maybe it'll turn out not to be utter gibberish.
I found your response sensible, Io, and I appreciate you pointing out where I could have worded my statements better. It's interactions like these that help us learn to communicate more accurately and be better skeptics.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:00 pm

Nikki

Shame on you. Shame, shame, shame.

Your are supposed to be able to THINK !

And what you just presented was such a load of irrational crap. Shame again !

Let me repeat my earlier metaphor. Everyone loves money but very few are bank robbers.

Sure, all normal guys have a sex drive. But all life on this planet is enormously variable (let me repeat. ENORMOUSLY !) . Every guy is different from every other guy. So a minority are rapists and the majority are decent.

Now, please, please, re-think that crappy illogic.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:03 pm

On old women.

Sure, a rape of an old woman is sex drive. Again let me refer you to the variability that makes up human nature. Some guys are so weird that an old woman will cause sexual arousal. Not many, which is why that kind of rape is rare. Most rapists are sexually aroused by sexy young women, which is why that kind of rape is so much more common. But there are guys who screw watermelons. There is sexual arousal with some weirdos on seeing a shoe !

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:06 pm

On the objectification of women.

Sure, it happens. But rape precedes this in history. In fact, rape was far more common (again, quoting Prof Stephen Pinker) in periods of history and prehistory long before modern media led to that objectification. So don't overstate this cause.

Actually even in our present time, rape is at its most common (by orders of magnitude) in time of war, when young and randy soldiers rape women classified as "enemy". I doubt that the media objectification of women influences that terribly much.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8778
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:14 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:On old women.

Sure, a rape of an old woman is sex drive. Again let me refer you to the variability that makes up human nature. Some guys are so weird that an old woman will cause sexual arousal. Not many, which is why that kind of rape is rare. Most rapists are sexually aroused by sexy young women, which is why that kind of rape is so much more common. But there are guys who screw watermelons. There is sexual arousal with some weirdos on seeing a shoe !


Lance,

The rape of an old woman may be partially caused by a sex drive - but for a comatose old women in palliative care homes, it is more likely to be caused by hate or just disgust with having to take care of her - no sex involved other than the obvious - that her sex organs are violated.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11008
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:22 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

You have denied the sex drive connection many times.

The fact is that rape begins with sex drive. Without sex drive, there is no rape. Rapists are driven by their sexual impulses, even when those impulses are stimulated by weird stuff. It is still the sex drive.



Non sequitur.

The subject of the premises is the sex drive, the subject of the conclusion is the rape drive.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:27 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:My argument is entirely against the morons who claim sex drive has nothing to do with rape.
Let me make a few distinctions here, because you persist in expressing yourself poorly.

1. Sex drive has nothing to do with rape. Most men possess a healthy libido, but they do not rape.1
2. Sexual arousal is what allows the physical act of genital rape to be committed...but it is not the cause of rape. Men with healthy libidos become sexually aroused multiple times a day, but they do not rape.2
3. Rape using an inanimate object does not require sexual arousal, or even a normal sex drive.
4. There is no evidence whatsoever that all rape victims are sexually attractive, even the scant majority that are in the 18-34 age group.3
5. Nearly half of rape victims fall outside the 18-34 age group, the group which society considers to be the most sexually attractive.
6. The societal stigma against pedophilia is incredibly strong, even when it is committed against children during puberty, but it does not prevent rapists from assaulting those who are under 18, and the under-18 age group is a large segment of rape victims.

So, it is not 'sex drive' that causes rape. If it were, all men would be rapists.
—————
1 I've had a relatively active sex life, but only been raped once. For most of my life, I have been in bands where I'm the only female, yet none of my band mates has ever raped me. Consensual affairs, yes. Rape, no.
2 None of my long-term partners has ever raped me, despite circumstances causing me to occasionally say "no." One such circumstance was the development of thunderclap headaches which occurred at orgasm. My partner did not pursue his own orgasm, despite being in the throes of it; he immediately backed off and took care of me, getting me dressed and driving me to hospital for treatment. In fact, this happened multiple times until my doctor found a preventative treatment that worked.
3 While I was within the 18-34 age group when I was raped, it was not sexual arousal at my appearance that caused it. First, I was wearing pajama pants, a long-sleeved t-shirt, socks, slippers, and an enveloping terrycloth bathrobe. Second, I had no makeup on and my hair was a bird's nest from tossing and turning. Third, it was dark where I was assaulted. Fourth, my assailants were lying in wait in the women's room; they were not responding to me personally; they had already made the decision to rape the next woman who chanced to use the women's room, regardless of who she was or what she looked like. But they were not lurking for a victim for a lengthy period of time while sexually aroused.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:49 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki

Shame on you. Shame, shame, shame.

Your are supposed to be able to THINK !

And what you just presented was such a load of irrational crap. Shame again !

Let me repeat my earlier metaphor. Everyone loves money but very few are bank robbers.

Now, please, please, re-think that crappy illogic.
From experience, your juvenile ad homs, in conjunction with back-pedaling on your initial viewpoint and multiple attempts at misrepresenting the arguments of others, are a clear sign that you've realized you're wrong, but would rather double down and make a fool of yourself than admit it. This isn't my first rodeo with you during which you've ignored valid data gleaned from peer-reviewed studies that have been replicated.

You should be ashamed of your predilection to ignore factual evidence that contradicts your opinion.

You should be ashamed of excoriating those who have supported their views with verifiable scientific evidence, while you have provided none.

You should be ashamed of your inability to be rational when you are emotional.

Most of all, you should be ashamed of your claim to skepticism; skeptics do not discard valid empirical data in favor of their personal opinion; only wooists do that.

Take the time for honest introspection, Lance, and resolve your cognitive dissonances. Frankly, I'm embarrassed for you at this point.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 8K Posts
Posts: 8778
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:02 pm

Lance,

A nice little... "OK, I accept that, and thanks!" would be an appropriate response.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:34 pm

TJ

I really get annoyed when presented with total crap. Maybe this is a character flaw in me. But I am especially annoyed when it comes from someone like Nikki who, at other times, has shown clear and rational thought.

Nikki has still not accepted that a high sex drive does not cause rape with normal and decent guys, but does with nasty rapists. She continues the utterly idiotic argument that if sex drive caused rape then all men would be rapists. Anyone who cannot see the flaw in that argument is truly idiotic. I KNOW that Nikki is not that kind of idiot, so why does she persist with that stupid line ?

Let me point out to Nikki that her 18 to 34 age group is not the relevant one. It is more like 14 to 34. While the moronic politicians in her country (actually all politicians in all countries tend to be morons) have set 18 as the minimum legal age for sex, the hormones are doing a jig years before that, and girls in their early teens are frequently very sexually attractive (and often have strong sexual desire.) 14 to 34 carries much more than half the rape victims.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11008
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:44 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

Nikki has still not accepted that a high sex drive does not cause rape with normal and decent guys, but does with nasty rapists.


Then it is necessary that the sex drive is not the primary driver of rape.

Additionally, you have not provided an objective method of measuring a person's sex drive. Without that, the phrase 'high sex drive' has no meaning.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:03 pm

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victim ... l-violence

Further to my previous statement.
15% of rape victims are 12 to 17.
54% are 18 to 34

Nikki is being very, very dishonest in choosing 18 to 34 as her standard. Some girls as young as 12 are actually very sexually attractive. If you take the 12 to 34 age group, that is 69% of all rape victims. Over two thirds, in a group that represents only one quarter of a woman's average life span.

So it is very clear that rapists disproportionately select young women, by a big margin.

Oleg

Measuring sex drive is not the important thing. Although it is very clear that most rapists are also relatively young, in the age group with strong sex drive. The problem here is insufficient research, probably because the whole subject is touchy and prone to strong emotionalism. A good skeptic is one who can put emotion aside and go for an objective result. Too rare, sadly.

I have never said that sex drive is the only factor. Obviously, a guy who respects women is unlikely to be a rapist, in spite of having a sex drive.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:41 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ I really get annoyed when presented with total crap.
LMFTFY:I really get annoyed when presented with total crap information, studies, arguments, and conclusions that disagree with mine.

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ Maybe this is a character flaw in me.
LMFTFY: Ain't no maybe about it.......even if we grant it a character issue.

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ But I am especially annoyed when it comes from someone like Nikki who, at other times, has shown clear and rational thought.
LMFTFY: Exactly so.....just another reason you should give your own view a slight tweak. You don't even have to "change" most of what you think, just understand it from a different perspective..........nuance, flexibility.......learning a deeper appreciation past the surface. And, its not just Nikki.

Once again, what we have with Lance the Science Denier, is someone refusing to look past their own initial perspective on their personal experience. Powerful stuff for Science to deal with.....usually failing. I found a lot of peace with: "You can't argue rationally with the Religiously Devout ((Note: but have since learned this applies to most people firmly convinced of anything)), if you could, they wouldn't be Religious to begin with."

Lance......its just an "idea." Since you don't rape, and don't legislate or otherwise advocate in the area, what difference does it make?? Ha, ha.....a very special touch to add "Shame" to your analysis. What else gets you energized???

Nikki went OUT OF HER WAY: to find studies. As always: you reply with repetition.

Just look.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:52 am

Bobbo

Take a look at your last post. It is pure assertion with no sense.

Nikki went out of her way to find studies that did nothing at all to back her argument. In fact, her references supported my case, not hers. I am always disappointed in people who fail to argue rationally.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:21 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: Take a look at your last post. It is pure assertion with no sense.

Its an application of the "Rule of Equal Dignity".

What do you call criticizing the quality of links provided by other people when you provide none of your own?

Hint: It starts with an H.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:31 am

I will criticise any stupid links that I see. Why ? Because they are stupid.

Nikki tried to oppose my statement that rape is motivated by sex by showing how rapists are sexually aroused. Gee. How did that oppose my argument ?

It didn't.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:43 am

For grins, I looked up "Rule of Equal Dignity" and actually surprised its a legal term as well. My reference though was to "reply in kind." You see this happen on the Forum quite often resulting in amusing sidetracks. The non-sense comment followed by 5-6 in like vein.

Lance: criticizing a link as stupid does not provide one of your own.

You are using circular logic: "Anything that results in sex is motivated by the sex drive." When a study indicates that sex///a sex act//// assaulting a woman with a penis///// can result from a desire to do violence, you simply call that a sex drive too===because it results in sex.

Just look. 3-4 different logical fallacies apply. AND you do flip flop. You did say rape is caused by two factors: sex drive and the power drive with some, but not much, overlap. I mean: can't keep two ideas in your mind? Be consistent with what I suspect you do think, but just all too often fail to remember?

Most things hoomans do are not simple stimulus and response....... except for those unthinking responses? Do rapists think when they rape, or is it an unthinking process?

Lots of ways to demolish unthinking analyses.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:15 am

Let me express the point with a simile.

The motivating force for a car is burning liquid fuel. But it needs something more. The internal combustion engine.

Burning fuel + engine = movement.

For rape, the motivating force is the sex drive. But it needs something more. The arsehole.

Sex drive + arsehole = rape.

Now you can analyse the detailed motivations and psychological quirks of those arseholes all you like. You can add layers of complexity, all of which will be correct, but none of it will obviate the simple equation above.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:40 am

Don't be so hard on yourself Lance. You aren't that much of an arsehole...... and sorry can't accept that as the answer, as even Hole of the arse is not correct anyway......but it is in the ballpark.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:05 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I really get annoyed when presented with total crap.
Like when someone repeatedly ignores data gleaned from empiric experiments, solely because it counters their conclusion? Yeah, that is annoying. You should really stop.

Lance Kennedy wrote:Maybe this is a character flaw in me.
It is. You habitually ignore factual data when you've already made up your mind.

Lance Kennedy wrote:But I am especially annoyed when it comes from someone like Nikki who, at other times, has shown clear and rational thought.
Lance: "This is the truth. I offer absolutely no data to support it."
Nikki: "Your conclusion is proven false by this comprehensive, peer-reviewed, double-blind study."
Lance: "You're not being rational."
:roll:

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki has still not accepted that a high sex drive does not cause rape with normal and decent guys, but does with nasty rapists.
Straw man alert! I never said that all men are rapists. Not to mention, you just derailed your own "sex drive causes rape" argument.

Lance Kennedy wrote:She continues the utterly idiotic argument that if sex drive caused rape then all men would be rapists. Anyone who cannot see the flaw in that argument is truly idiotic. I KNOW that Nikki is not that kind of idiot, so why does she persist with that stupid line ?
OMFG, Lance, please use your brain. You allege that sex drive causes rape, that x causes y. Let's break down your hypothesis...
If x causes y, then when x is present, y is the result.
With me so far? Let's try an example...
If chronic overeating causes weight gain, then when chronic overeating is present, weight gain is the result.
Still good? Now let's apply it to your hypothesis...
If sex drive causes rape, then when sex drive is present, rape is the result.
Well, that didn't work, did it? When sex drive is present, rape is the result only in a small number of men. Therefore, sex drive cannot be the cause of rape. Q.E.D. Sex drive merely provides the weapon.

You haven't offered a shred of evidence to support your position, Lance. I have. Attempts to discredit me do not erase the factual data I provided...or stand in place of data you have failed to produce.
An ad hominem argument seeks to discredit an opposing view by attacking the character of the opponent while ignoring the evidence.
Shooting the messenger doesn't invalidate the message. Go read the evidence I provided, FFS.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:07 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Saying rape is not about sex is like saying eating is not about appetite.
No. It's like saying that overeating is not about appetite. And it's not.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:27 pm

For Finagle Sake, Nikki, why do you not apply your rationality to this, instead of doing the knee jerk reflex.

First.
Your earlier reference is one I should have used, because it talked of what it took to get a rapist sexually aroused. It SUPPORTED my stance. It showed that rape followed sexual arousal. In other words, the rape came from the sex drive.

Second.
Please, please, please, think!
All of us love money. In other words we are greedy. A bank robber is motivated by greed, but even though we are all greedy, we are not all bank robbers.

All normal males have a sex drive. A rapist is motivated by his sex drive, but normal males are not rapists. Your weird illogic here is startling in someone who supposedly can think scientifically.

I get hungry, but even when hungry, I do not eat feces. Yet dogs do. You need to realise that something that drives one person to a particular action will not drive another to the same action, because, DUH, we are all different.

Please, Nikki, right now you are looking like a prize blithering idiot. Please fix that image and come back with a bit of sense.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9036
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Poodle » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 pm

I didn't think it was all about the sex drive either, Lance. So I looked it up on Wikipedia, of all places ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence
I haven't changed my mind. Your own theory is but a small section in the article.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki is being very, very dishonest in choosing 18 to 34 as her standard.
No, I'm not. Rape of a minor is pedophilia. Period.

Lance Kennedy wrote:Some girls as young as 12 are actually very sexually attractive.

Image

Lance Kennedy wrote:If you take the 12 to 34 age group, that is 69% of all rape victims. Over two thirds, in a group that represents only one quarter of a woman's average life span.
1. Worldwide, the average lifespan for women is 72, not 88. Your target group—12-34 years of age—represents 30% of the average lifespan.
2. So what? Your hypothesis dismisses 31% of the group, to whom it does not apply. That percentage is far too high to be discarded as outlying data. Therefore, it constitutes meaningful data that must be considered. Globally, murder victims are a mere 0.01% of the population. Should we discount murder as a problem because murder victims are not in the majority?

Lance Kennedy wrote:A good skeptic is one who can put emotion aside and go for an objective result. Too rare, sadly.
You should try it some time.

Lance Kennedy wrote:I have never said that sex drive is the only factor.
Must I embarrass you yet again by quoting your own posts? It appears I must.
Lance Kennedy wrote:If rape is due to the sex drive, then most victims will be those women who most stimulate the sex desire. ie. Younger women, less than 35 years.

Except that the sex drive IS the cause of rape.

By far the most common form of rape is date rape. That is 100% sex drive.

But date rape is the most clearly due to the sex drive and not to any other motive.

Date rape is 100% due to the sex drive and only an idiot claims it is due to the desire for power and control.

Sex drive is normally the basic motive
You not only said it, you said it multiple times.

Lance Kennedy wrote:Obviously, a guy who respects women is unlikely to be a rapist, in spite of having a sex drive.
The comprehensive, double-blind, peer-reviewed study I posted proves you wrong. The experimenters were able to generate rape behavior in non-rapists.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:37 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:On the objectification of women. Sure, it happens. But rape precedes this in history.
No, it doesn't. Most societies objectified women long before the advent of mass media. For example, read the Bible. Or the Constitution. Or just note the fact that, prior to the 20th Century, female leaders, authors, inventors, artists, scientists, etc. were exceedingly rare, as was higher education and basic human rights for women. FFS, it was within recent memory that forcing your wife to have sex was finally deemed rape. Before that, it was not considered a crime, because women were objectified.

Lance Kennedy wrote:Actually even in our present time, rape is at its most common (by orders of magnitude) in time of war, when young and randy soldiers rape women classified as "enemy". I doubt that the media objectification of women influences that terribly much.
No, what influences the objectification in this case is the word "enemy." Objectifying the enemy is what allows soldiers to kill the enemy...and rape the enemy.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:41 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Nikki went out of her way to find studies that did nothing at all to back her argument. In fact, her references supported my case, not hers.
Are you on drugs? Early onset dementia? Traumatic brain injury? There must be a valid reason for your delusions. My references completely destroyed your hypothesis. Not that you would know, since it's obvious you didn't bother to examine the evidence.

Lance Kennedy wrote:I am always disappointed in people who fail to argue rationally.
You must be horribly disappointed in yourself, then.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:03 pm

To Nikki

Various points where you are off the beam

1. "Rape of a minor is pedophilia." That is an Americo-centric prejudice. 12 year old girls in many countries are already married, and often pregnant. I suspect their husbands would be seriously insulted if you called them pedophiles.

I have a female friend, now in her 60's, but who I met when she was in her 20's. She was gorgeous, with a lovely curvaceous figure. She told me that she had reached full physical maturity at 12, including breast and hip measures. At 12, she was as sexy as she was when I met her, something she told me with some glee. The suggestion that sex with a female less than 18 is pedophilia is pure prejudice.

2. The percentage of rape victims who are young. The data both of us quote is not global, and trying to twist the argument to global figures, which we do not have, is ludicrous. Stick to the figures we have. Life span of the population we are quoting is around 80.

3. Objectification of women.
Again you are trying to twist the argument. You originally raised this topic in relation to the western media objectifying women. I pointed out that this was not true in past times when rape was much worse. Changing your position changes the argument. And makes the original point invalid.

Certainly "enemy" women are objectified, and they are the group most often rapes in times gone by. Not just as rapes after an attack, but also throughout much of history, they were brought back as sex slaves. Anthropologists have found that captured women actually contribute substantially to the gene pool of the captor population. I have wondered if natural selection in this group explains the Stockholm Syndrome.

The sex drive is the basic cause of rape. Not the only influence. Hunger drives me to eat, but other influences determines what I eat. Sex drive causes men to rape, and the fact that more than two thirds of their victims are between 12 and 34, a part of a woman's life that represents only about 25% of her total existence, is due to the fact that the sex drive is mostly responsible, and sexual desire is most stimulated by that age group. But of course, rapists are individuals, and what stimulates their sex drive is just as variable as anything else. So some are aroused by violence. Some by younger girls. Some by older. Because everyone is different.

4. Experimenters generating rape action in non rapists. That certainly happens. Soldiers raping "enemy" women are the biggest and best example. Those are same guys who go home and marry their childhood sweetheart and never, ever, tell how they raped "enemy" women. But so WHAT? That is not an issue in our current argument. We are talking of rape in western society (or at least I am), and non rapists rarely commit that rape in normal society.

Rapists are not normal guys, as your own reference makes clear, Nikki. They are people without the empathy and conscience that holds a normal guy back from committing that horrible act. When they are sexually aroused, regardless of what it is that arouses them, their sex drive causes them to rape. Denying this simple point is being a very crappy skeptic, since it requires belief in that which is politically correct instead of that which is scientifically correct.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:09 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Your earlier reference is one I should have used, because it talked of what it took to get a rapist sexually aroused. It SUPPORTED my stance. It showed that rape followed sexual arousal. In other words, the rape came from the sex drive.
Straw man again, Lance. Sexual arousal is not the motivation. The majority of men become sexually aroused several times a day, but are NOT motivated to rape.

Lance Kennedy wrote:All normal males have a sex drive. A rapist is motivated by his sex drive, but normal males are not rapists. Your weird illogic here is startling in someone who supposedly can think scientifically.
I'm flabbergasted that you're unable to see your own cognitive dissonance. Your hypothesis firmly claims that x causes y, then simultaneously claims that x doesn't always cause y, but only does so in a small minority of the population, yet you continue to maintain that x causes y. An analogy for your cognitive dissonance:
Lance: Eating causes people to vomit.
Nikki: If that were the case, the human race would have died out ages ago.
Lance: Bulimics vomit when they eat, therefore, eating causes people to vomit.

Lance Kennedy wrote:Please, Nikki, right now you are looking like a prize blithering idiot.
You won't find a single person who agrees with you, Lance, especially since your ad hominem is based solely on the fact that I've proven you wrong with a comprehensive, peer-reviewed, double-blind study. Further, cut the {!#%@}. If you can't debate an issue without resorting to insults, then you need to grow the {!#%@} up.

Where is your evidence, Lance?
Since you haven't yet provided any, I'm presuming you have none. Evidence, Lance, or STFU, because your personal opinions are nauseating (cf. date rape isn't too violent, 12-year-olds are sexually attractive, factual evidence that counters Lance's opinion is stupid).
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:18 pm

Nikki

Crappy illogic.

For Finagle sake, realise this. X causing Y, but not ALWAYS causing Y is just the normal state of things. Try getting your logic straight. Currently you are looking like an idiot.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:21 pm

Nikki: nice review but you've made a fatal error. You used an analogy. Lance cannot understand an analogy. You have to show how many men or women have died from rape, or Lance will think YOU don't make any sense.

Its how his cookie crumbled.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11000
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:49 pm

Bobbo

Wrong.
Analogies can be OK, if they are valid.

What Nikki said was that if X causes Y, it must always cause Y.
This is possibly OK in physics, but we are discussing human behaviour, and it is therefore utter crap.

User avatar
Nikki Nyx
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3159
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:40 am
Custom Title: cognitively consonant
Location: playing croquet in Wonderland

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:58 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Nikki
Where is your evidence, Lance?!
You've offered nothing except your personal opinions. Produce the evidence, or STFU.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

Dubious
New Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:08 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby Dubious » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:06 pm

I find it really pathetic that one should be a feminist to give the other half its due. It's always been half & half like the cream you put in your coffee, not two-thirds with a one-third leftover.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 13177
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:09 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

Wrong.
Analogies can be OK, if they are valid.

What Nikki said was that if X causes Y, it must always cause Y.
This is possibly OK in physics, but we are discussing human behaviour, and it is therefore utter crap.

what Nikki said (not really, but in its most favorable interpretation) is that x is necessary but not sufficient to cause y.

A simple basic scientific concept you have zero understanding of............ as you respond to this topic.

Why so stuck in a rut???? Silly not to use text book terminology.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?


Return to “Skepticism and Critical Thinking”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests