"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

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"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:28 pm

Reference : the American magazine 'Skeptic', vol. 22, number 4, 2017, page 46

To be a scientist requires a form of intellectual honesty which denies preconception. No one who claims to be a scientist is correct if he or she has formed conclusions before the research is done. This applies to any system of belief. In this case, I refer to feminism.

Please do not misunderstand me, here. I am in favor of rational feminism, where it is about gender equality, and the removal of barriers to female accomplishment. Female scientists have a great deal to contribute, and any barrier to their path is a detrement to humankind.

However, there are also extremists among feminists, and some of them come from academia, and call themselves feminist scientists. The one thing you can be sure of is that they are not scientists!

The latest Skeptic magazine gives examples.
Sandra Harding, for example, refers to the writings of Isaac Newton as a 'rape manual', apparently because he refers to exploiting nature.
Other feminists have referred to the modern view of sperm and ovum as misogynist, because the sperm is given the dynamic role.
Dr. Laura Parson of the University of Louisville attacks the idea of truth in science, and says that it is masculine in form and intent, and is designed to prevent women from being a part of science, since women appreciate that truth is a variable. She regards truth to be altered by context, something which is more apparent to women.

My own most hated feminist teaching is that rape is not about sex. This was "confirmed" by 'feminist researchers' who went into prisons to interview convicted rapists and "confirm" their belief that it is all about power and control.

I read a critique of their work by a prison warden who knew how prisoners operated. This is how the "research" goes.

Interviewer : "Why did you rape that girl."
Rapist : "I dunno. Seemed a good idea at the time."
Interviewer : "It was to impose your own power and control on her, wasn't it?"
Rapist : "Yeah. That was it."

The "Feminist Researcher" then writes a paper showing that the power and control idea has been proven.

In my view, anyone who enters into a research project with a pre-formed conclusion is no scientist, and should be drummed out of academia.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:34 pm

What is it with you and rape Lance? ////

But seriously folks: nothing wrong with a pre-formed conclusion IF you change your mind given the evidence. Most experiments whether by feminists or neanderthals have a small range of expectations as to the outcomes.

Hoomans are not just one thing. A scientist and nothing else. A female and nothing else. A feminist and nothing else.

Everyting is a mix. A good scientist is not free from bias, they rather control it.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:49 pm

To Bobbo

There is something very, very wrong with a pre-formed conclusion. It is called confirmation bias.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:33 pm

Ok lance.............now, read the rest of it. Don't get target fixation on the first words you wrote.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:54 am

The point, Bobbo, is tthat people with pre-formed conclusions rather frequently strongly resist changing their minds. Especially if they subscribe to a strong belief system like religion, a political body, or feminism.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:02 am

Ok Lance. Once again we have your inflexibility on repetitious display.

You say X. I say Not X because of the following reasons, and then you repeat: "No, Its X."

..................Can you think of a better way to actually engage in the dialectic?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:12 am

Not really, Bobbo, until you start talking sense.

You have been a contributor to this forum long enough to appreciate how people with an agenda do not veer from it. If someone like Xouper says that guns reduce murders, then you and I can post enough contrary data to leave us blue in the face, and he will not change.

So if a person with a strong pre-conception carries out a dishonest experiment, what are the chances he or she will change?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:26 am

Lance, you should look inward - once in a while at least.
Last edited by TJrandom on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:41 pm

Ok Lance.........I agree I was not plain in my response. Plainly: it depends on what you mean by preconceived and I was just being too nuanced.

and as almost always, you fail to engage any discussion by merely repeating your position rather than going after the argument given to you in response.

Very stodgy you are.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:18 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Reference : the American magazine 'Skeptic', vol. 22, number 4, 2017, page 46

To be a scientist requires a form of intellectual honesty which denies preconception. No one who claims to be a scientist is correct if he or she has formed conclusions before the research is done. This applies to any system of belief. In this case, I refer to feminism.

Please do not misunderstand me, here. I am in favor of rational feminism, where it is about gender equality, and the removal of barriers to female accomplishment. Female scientists have a great deal to contribute, and any barrier to their path is a detrement to humankind.

However, there are also extremists among feminists, and some of them come from academia, and call themselves feminist scientists. The one thing you can be sure of is that they are not scientists!
This whole section nulls your thread headline. You're doing exactly the same thing as the bigot: concluding that extremists are representative of the group as a whole. Sloppy thinking, Lance. Most feminists are not misandrists. There are three things to remember about extremists:
• their views are extreme,
• they are a small minority,
• their views are not representative of any group to which they belong.
Lance Kennedy wrote:The latest Skeptic magazine gives examples.
Sandra Harding, for example, refers to the writings of Isaac Newton as a 'rape manual', apparently because he refers to exploiting nature.
Other feminists have referred to the modern view of sperm and ovum as misogynist, because the sperm is given the dynamic role.
Dr. Laura Parson of the University of Louisville attacks the idea of truth in science, and says that it is masculine in form and intent, and is designed to prevent women from being a part of science, since women appreciate that truth is a variable. She regards truth to be altered by context, something which is more apparent to women.
All examples of extremist thinking that actively denies accepted fact. Harding, apparently, is unable to accept that she is the same species as her male counterparts. Her conclusion appears to be based on the idea that women are 'natural' or more in tune with 'nature.'

The sperm is not 'given' the dynamic role; it actually has the dynamic role. I'll bet this group also wants to rename 'history' as 'herstory,' etymology be damned.

Parson misses the obvious: there is no truth in science. Science makes conclusions about natural phenomena through empiricism, but those conclusions are not 'truth.' They are merely accepted facts for now, subject to modification based on new data.
Lance Kennedy wrote:In my view, anyone who enters into a research project with a pre-formed conclusion is no scientist, and should be drummed out of academia.
By your own admission, then, you should refrain from discussing rape...at least until you're brave enough to be introspective and analyze your pre-formed conclusion.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:21 pm

I am not going to argue the stodgy part. But it would help, Bobbo, if you were less ambiguous about what you want.

Nikki

Watch that straw man. I did not say, and I hope I did not imply, that extremists characterise all feminists.

On the rape ideas, they were not preconceptions. I did my research as far as I could before coming out with my own suggestion.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:55 pm

Lance: I'm just being polite, not ambiguous at all. My argument and reasoning is contained in two short sentences (sic as I didn't confirm). YOU SIMPLY WON'T ENGAGE.

So there. READ WHATS THERE--and respond to it rather than repeat your first post. If you can't understand it, then ask questions about it rather than cut and paste what you've already posted.

Try it.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:14 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Watch that straw man. I did not say, and I hope I did not imply, that extremists characterise all feminists.
Yes, you did. Your thread headline makes an unsupported generalization about a particular group.
Lance Kennedy wrote:On the rape ideas, they were not preconceptions. I did my research as far as I could before coming out with my own suggestion.
It's clear that your 'research' was conducted with your preconceived conclusion in mind, since you discard all evidence that counters your belief.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by gorgeous » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:29 pm

feminists have an agenda...to promote themselves and their gay agenda...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 pm

You know, some people here would say that Gord is the funniest member here. I say nay, nay. It's gorgeous.
Keep up the work, gorgeous.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by gorgeous » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:37 pm

you can't deny it...they already insist that if a man wears a dress and makeup that makes him a woman....and if you refuse to call him her you are sexist and prejudiced...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:01 am

gorgeous wrote:They already insist that if a man wears a dress and makeup that makes him a woman....
Is "they" your flatmate? :D

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:13 am

Science is self-correcting: even deeply religious researchers can contribute to to the sum of knowledge.
Ideology doesn't disqualify you from doing science as long as you produce and publish good data; interpretation of which can and should be done by people with different views to reduce the (unavoidable) biases of some.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:51 pm

While that is true, EM, it is also vitally important that the researcher does not permit ideology to govern conclusions. If the conclusion is pre-made, it will very likely be false.

Imagine a religious True Believer who is carbon dating the shroud of Turin, and truly and powerfully believes it was the shroud that wrapped Christ. What will he/she do when the results show it is only 1000 years old? My prediction is that the researcher will exaggerage the margin of error in the results, to permit him/her to continue in the religious belief.

In spite of Nikki's statements, I did not come to this business of what lies behind rape with a pre-conception. I was surprised when I first saw the claim that it was all about power and control, but I had no reason then to disbelieve it. My skepticism arose over time as I saw other things that seemed to cast doubt. The final straw was reading the account by the prison warden on how crappy the "research" in prisons was. That is why I believe those people who falsely call themselves 'feminist scientists' are not scientists at all.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Poodle » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:34 pm

I've thought about it, and I'm jumping in on Lance's side. I agree - you can be a feminist and a scientist (God forbid, you can be a republican and a scientist) but you cannot be a feminist scientist. It immediately taints the field. You can be a social scientist but you cannot be a socialist scientist (although you can be a socialist and a scientist).
It's like saying that you can be a metaphysical cook.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:06 pm

Lance, that is why the Results and the Conclusions are separate parts of a published paper: one is the data and the other the (necessarily biased) interpretation of the same.
Many old papers are steeped in disproven paradigms, but the pure data can be still useful in conjunction with modern insights.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:28 pm

Poodle wrote:I've thought about it, and I'm jumping in on Lance's side. I agree - you can be a feminist and a scientist (God forbid, you can be a republican and a scientist) but you cannot be a feminist scientist. It immediately taints the field. You can be a social scientist but you cannot be a socialist scientist (although you can be a socialist and a scientist).
It's like saying that you can be a metaphysical cook.
How does belief in a particular sociopolitical paradigm prevent one from doing good physics?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by ahhell » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:55 pm

Poodle wrote:I've thought about it, and I'm jumping in on Lance's side. I agree - you can be a feminist and a scientist (God forbid, you can be a republican and a scientist) but you cannot be a feminist scientist. It immediately taints the field. You can be a social scientist but you cannot be a socialist scientist (although you can be a socialist and a scientist).
It's like saying that you can be a metaphysical cook.
I agree with this. You can have any ideology and still be a productive scientist. Its only when the ideology takes precedence over the data that you are no longer a scientist. Its similar to how I feel about art and entertainment, pretty much any ideology can result in good art until the ideology starts taking precedent then you end up with Christian Rock.


Side note, it reminds me of the Aquatic Ape theory. A superficially plausible hypothesis that was largely sidelined because there's really now supporting evidence. But its gotten a lot of legs because it was picked up by feminist journalist because it fits her ideology.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:42 pm

Some good scientists are religious. The human ability to compartmentalize is well documented.

An entire thread dedicated to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 pm

You'all ((or them that do)) are just allowing the LABELS you use to jump to conclusions.

Why don't you JUST LOOK at whatever is in view and judge it on the merits, regardless of what LABEL someone has put on the researcher/data?

You know.............think for yourself.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:26 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: ;)

How does belief in a particular sociopolitical paradigm prevent one from doing good physics?

You can believe you are being followed around by an invisible pink unicorn, and still do good physics. But there is a level of irrational belief that taints conclusions. This is especially true when you carry out 'research' with the intent of confirming your ideas.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:36 pm

Lance: so you are adding intent to your label?

Got a link, or deny this is totally of your own mania.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:32 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Poodle wrote:I've thought about it, and I'm jumping in on Lance's side. I agree - you can be a feminist and a scientist (God forbid, you can be a republican and a scientist) but you cannot be a feminist scientist. It immediately taints the field. You can be a social scientist but you cannot be a socialist scientist (although you can be a socialist and a scientist).
It's like saying that you can be a metaphysical cook.
How does belief in a particular sociopolitical paradigm prevent one from doing good physics?
It doesn't - as I said. It's the terminology which is completely up the spout. Being a feminist and also being a scientist is fine - such people exist, I'm sure. But that's not what the phrase 'feminist scientist' implies at all, oh dear me no. That carries the implication of such a field as feminist science.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:15 pm

So we have to go back to the original post and clarify whether the issue being raised is "one can't be both a feminist and a scientist" or "a field called 'feminist science' can't honestly be a true science". The former is a non-starter so...

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:10 pm

Perhaps I did not make the point clear.
Of course a person can be a feminist and a scientist. But if a feminist sets out to do research to confirm feminist ideas, that research is immediately worthless, since it is subject to confirmation bias.

Any scientist MUST keep preconception away from the research. Results and conclusions MUST be independant from any prior ideas.

The feminist scientist idea I am opposing here is using science to confirm feminist ideas. The same applies, as Poodle pointed out, to any other system of belief.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:32 pm

Lance says: "any person with an ideological devotation, except those for pink unicorns, who sets out to do research to confirm those ideological ideas, produces research that is immediately worthless." Good example of total BS.

Didn't early astronomers chart sun and planet movements to show that the earth was the center of the universe? And later, that same painstaking observational data created by 30 years of nightly observation become the same data set to show the earth circled the sun?

My wonder is why are pink unicorns ok, but feminism is not?? don't we look to the data and not the collector?

Again: you'all are letting labels control your thinking.

Bad Dictionary skills.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Poodle » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:44 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Lance says: "any person with an ideological devotation, except those for pink unicorns, who sets out to do research to confirm those ideological ideas, produces research that is immediately worthless." Good example of total BS.

Didn't early astronomers chart sun and planet movements to show that the earth was the center of the universe? And later, that same painstaking observational data created by 30 years of nightly observation become the same data set to show the earth circled the sun?

My wonder is why are pink unicorns ok, but feminism is not?? don't we look to the data and not the collector?

Again: you'all are letting labels control your thinking.

Bad Dictionary skills.
No, bobbo - the church stated that the Earth was at the centre of the universe and those who argued were burned. In which universe is the search for pink unicorns an admirable scientific quest?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:51 pm

Poodle wrote: No, bobbo - the church stated that the Earth was at the centre of the universe and those who argued were burned.
Isn't that just what I said? Worse than a personal bias, this is State Mandated Conclusions....but THE POINT IS the data collected was still valid.....and used later to support the non-Church mandated result. In contrapose to Lance's dictum: the data was not invalid and there was no reason to throw it out.
Poodle wrote: . In which universe is the search for pink unicorns an admirable scientific quest?
None that I know of, but THE POINT IS if some one engaged in such quest and did it by surveying and counting every living creature in some geographical area...that would be good data.

Again: restated: you are making that there Genetic Fallacy, subset Argument from Authority (or lack thereof) rather than looking at the actual experiment/study/data field developed.

Seems like a very clear distinction easy to distinguish. Why all the hating on feminism?

Edit: Argument from Lack of Authority........my own mania with my dislike of the genetic fallacy fatally ambiguous multiple definitions. This more properly is an example of ab hominem. always despised, unless your own hated group is the target.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:30 pm

Bobbo

You and I have communication problems. I generally understand about half of what you write, and you clearly fail to understand my points. Your attempt to paraphrase my earlier post is just plain weird!

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:53 am

Lance: yep....you got some powerful defenses against cognitive dissonance.

..................thats why on the last post about I forget what..........I asked YOU to state the opposing argument. I assume you wouldn't go hysterically blind or not understand an opposing point of view that you wrote yourself.

Know what I mean? ===>what I write is plain enough unless you don't want to understand it. Your remedy if you wanted to understand it is to identify what you don't understand. You don't do that........no mystery.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Gord » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:48 am

Aztexan wrote:You know, some people here would say that Gord is the funniest member here. I say nay, nay. It's gorgeous.
Keep up the work, gorgeous.
:roses:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Phoenix76
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Phoenix76 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:27 am

Wow, what an inter-active thread. Thoughts, ideas, from every angle.

Lance, whilst I generally lean towards a lot of your thoughts and suppositions, I must agree that here, you have stated a case, from your prospective, but failed to state any opposite thought and then present counter argument. A one-sided argument or thesis.

Bobbo, my antagonistic friend, your dialogue is most often very hard to understand. I read words but feel that those words mean something else. Perhaps it is just your developed style over the years, but it can certainly play with a persons head. We have bashed heads many times in the past, but at least I feel I can understand what you are trying to put across, mostly. Hopefully you have learned to understand the intent in my writing.

As I see it, when you want to put up an argument, for or against a subject, you must not only put your argument, but also the other side of the argument. You must surely state the other belief and then systematically debate each part of that belief.

Oh yes, it is very easy to just jump in with your version/belief, and we all do it, but surely we must rebut each part of the contra argument.

Just my weird, screwed up thoughts. :D

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:36 pm

Phoenix

Do you see it as my role to present a counter argument to my argument? That does not sound much like a debate.

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Nikki Nyx
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:14 pm

gorgeous wrote:feminists have an agenda...to promote themselves and their gay agenda...
:laff: :lol: :rotfl: I'm a straight female feminist. Also, none of my lesbian friends has received the 'gay agenda' memo. Perhaps you could forward it to them.
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens

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Nikki Nyx
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Nikki Nyx » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:38 pm

gorgeous wrote:you can't deny it...they already insist that if a man wears a dress and makeup that makes him a woman....and if you refuse to call him her you are sexist and prejudiced...
A man wearing a dress and makeup is a transvestite.
https://youtu.be/1hJQsvoY6VU?t=3m20s
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."—Marcello Truzzi

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."—Christopher Hitchens