Question about interesting Bible Quotes

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Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Kamil » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:43 am

https://youtu.be/MQrUm38HLqg

The above link has a video which uses the bible to try and justify belief in heaven. It is a 20 min film, and most of the facts presented are of little value, but the first two min and forty five seconds make an interesting argument, I would love your opinions of it, just watch to 2:45 and I would like to know if you ever came across this argument. How would people at the time that the bible was written have known that we live in a vast universe? The scipture basically states that God and heaven exist outside our universe. Even today, a person trying to say heaven exists would say that "God and heaven exist outside the universe". Whether that is true is one thing, but it is interesting that people of that period could come up with that. I would love your opinions. Thanks

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:35 am

Matt MSV7 wrote: but the first two min and forty five seconds make an interesting argument, I would love your opinions of it,

"There are four facts about heaven, that you don't know"

There are no "facts" about heaven. Heaven is a fictitious place from a fictional book.

Name four facts about Mickey Mouse! :lol:

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:40 am

MAtt MVS7 wrote:How would people at the time that the bible was written have known that we live in a vast universe?
......by looking at the stars. The bible was first compiled in 180AD.

"Egyptian astronomy begins in prehistoric times, in the Predynastic Period. In the 5th millennium BCE"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_astronomy

What does AD mean?
What does BCE mean?
When were the Jews thrown out of Egypt. ( Hint : read the bible)
:lol:

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:20 am

Actually the Jews were never thrown out of Egypt. They were never in Egypt in the first place.

The ancient Egyptians were pretty good with their histories and recorded them in detail, via hieroglyphics. But there is no record of Jews in Egypt, or Moses, or the plagues, or the parting of the Red Sea, or any of that bull-shit.

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:45 am

If people look at the sky at night, vastness is a given. Same with living near deserts.
The concept of an infinite universe is baked into Middle Easter cultures. It is something that comes up time and again in religious texts far older than the bible.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:20 am

ElectricMonk wrote:If people look at the sky at night, vastness is a given. .

No its not. Used to be a glass sphere that all the stars were attached to and you could reach it from the right mountains.

"Nothing is given." //// The only proper starting point.
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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:14 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:If people look at the sky at night, vastness is a given. .

No its not. Used to be a glass sphere that all the stars were attached to and you could reach it from the right mountains.

"Nothing is given." //// The only proper starting point.


I was always very skeptical of the "Glass Sphere" story: stars are obviously of very diverse sizes and brightness, and they are very un-uniformly distributed. Even if I believe they are "attached" to something, that something is so huge, compared to the biggest mountain you can see, that it becomes clear how tiny earth is in comparison.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:14 pm

Again: its not obvious. Imagine your scientific achievement is to think bleeding yourself will cure a fever.

We all basically believe what we are told as kiddies. directly or via group think. the best of us are only skeptics at the edges.
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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:30 pm

Yes, but skepticism is now recognised as a form of wisdom. Go back a few hundred years and it was seen as foolishness. The skeptic can achieve far more today.

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Actually the Jews were never thrown out of Egypt. They were never in Egypt in the first place.
That is true, but believe it or not, the Egyptians controlled the Sinai when the Exodus was meant to have occurred. The Jews simply consolidated as a tribal group in the Egyptian controlled Levantine (River Jordan) full of hill bandits. (nomads).

I think they had to make the Moses character a secret prince of Egypt, simply to have some excuse to claim royal blood as they were just shepherding nomads.


"The Bronze Age term "Habiru" (Hebrew) was less specific than the Biblical "Hebrew". The term referred simply to Levantine nomads, of any religion or ethnicity. Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and Egyptian sources describe them largely as bandits, mercenaries, and slaves. Certainly, there were some Habiru slaves in ancient Egypt, but native Egyptian kingdoms were not heavily slave-based"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... s_in_Egypt

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:48 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Yes, but skepticism is now recognised as a form of wisdom. Go back a few hundred years and it was seen as foolishness. The skeptic can achieve far more today.

That made me laugh. I am being pulled to the position that skepticism is just a marker for being uninformed, refusing to learn, and digging your heals in. In the worst cases, it results in kneejerk repetition of the dumbest talking points from some advocacy group.

What do you think Mister Xouper?
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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:57 am

Bobbo

There are, no doubt, skeptics like that. After all, we are all human. However, skepticism as an approach to discovering what is true, is an offshoot of the scientific method. A competent skeptic will understand the scientific method and apply it. Part of that is having an open mind, but not one capable of being persuaded without strong evidence.

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:18 am

Lance...........step back from the Force. You are being dragged into X's Black Hole of having one, and only one, appreciation for anything that is nuanced, layered, ================>SUBJECT to definition.

This one should be instructive to yourself. You start by agreeing their are different types of skeptics, then settle on your own one approach.

...................................................... Its limiting.

Everything with its pros and cons.
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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:20 am

ElectricMonk wrote: I was always very skeptical of the "Glass Sphere" story: stars are obviously of very diverse sizes and brightness.......


The International Skeptic Forum currently more loons than we do. In this thread "Daniel" is putting on a full display, arguing for the flat Earth. His arguments are woeful and the thread is more an example of how loons argue.

Currently he is denying air pressure changes as altitude increases because he claims air pressure exists as the flat Earth is a closed container. (The glass sphere)
:D
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... p?t=324838

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:45 am

What causes his ears to pop in an elevator?
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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:02 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:What causes his ears to pop in an elevator?
"Daniel" simply won't answer any questions anymore. A skeptic scuba diver asked "Daniel' if he believed in the bends. Daniel said "yes", then deleted his post when he realised he was being trapped.

However my favourite loon on the ISF was "King of America" who discovered parallel lines on Google Maps that he claimed were evidence of prehistoric ploughing (and thus Atlantis was real). When it was pointed out that these were the satellite orbits taking the photos and his plough lines went over mountains, he deleted his posts and left that forum.

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby Gord » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:26 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:If people look at the sky at night, vastness is a given. .

No its not. Used to be a glass sphere that all the stars were attached to and you could reach it from the right mountains.

"Nothing is given." //// The only proper starting point.


I was always very skeptical of the "Glass Sphere" story: stars are obviously of very diverse sizes and brightness, and they are very un-uniformly distributed. Even if I believe they are "attached" to something, that something is so huge, compared to the biggest mountain you can see, that it becomes clear how tiny earth is in comparison.

Well, there were the beliefs that the sky was made of metal, such as iron or possibly bronze, or perhaps some crystalline substance: http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/gre13.htm

From N. F. Gier, God, Reason, and the Evangelicals
(University Press of America, 1987), chapter 13....

...The ancient Egyptians thought that the sky was a roof supported by pillars. For the Sumerians tin was the metal of heaven, so we can safely assume that their metal sky-vault was made out of this material. Dillow cites this fact without realizing what this must mean for the Hebrew view and his principle of sharable implications. In Homer the sky is a metal hemisphere covering a round, flat, disc-like earth, surrounded by water.
The Odyssey and the Illiad speak alternatively of a bronze or iron sky-vault. For the ancient Greeks Anaximenes and Empedocles, the stars are implanted in a crystalline sky-dome. At Genesis 1:17 the stars are "set in" (as if implanted) in the firmament.

In Celtic mythology the father god's skull is the dome of heaven, which echoes the Aryan idea that the sky evolved from the head of the cosmic man Purusha and therein dwelled the earliest Vedic gods (Rig-veda 10.90.14,16). The fear of Chicken Little comes from this ancient cosmology: when Alexander asked the Celtic leaders what they feared most, they answered that they were afraid that the sky would fall on their heads. In Manichean myths the sky was made from the skins of defeated demons, echoing themes from the Babylonian Enuma Elish. In Zoroastrianism one finds a spherical earth, but one still enclosed in a celestial shell of first stone then shiny metal. In the Finnish Kalevala the sky is made of the finest steel; and the ancient Tibetans not only had a spherical earth surrounded by an iron heaven, but also knew, amazingly enough, that the earth's diameter was about 7,000 miles....
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Question about interesting Bible Quotes

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:32 am

"Glass Sphere", "metal"... pffffttt, no leg to stand on...
.

Lard, save me from your followers.


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