Total Internet Freedom.

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Lance Kennedy
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Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:20 am

Elon Musk, who runs SpaceX, has asked consent to put 4,425 satellites into low Earth orbit, to act as internet information carriers. This has a very potent potential social impact. Such a system would cover each and every nation on the planet, and would stop all government barriers to internet access. Even places like China and North Korea could not stop their citizens getting full access to all the information on the global internet. Potentially, it could cause governments to topple, as their citizens discover what has been kept hidden from them.

The question is whether such a development is positive or negative. We all know that the internet is full of total crap. We get contributors to this forum, like gorgeous and others, who collect absolute bulldust off the internet and believe it. There are others who deliberately post fake news on web sites to attract advertisements, and make money. The last American presidential election may have been altered by such lies.

The internet is also a way that those with prejudice and horrible beliefs, such as racist ideas, spread their poison. So will a truly global internet be a good thing or a bad thing?

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:22 am

good....you will believe it too eventually....wait and see....
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:54 am

With full coverage, and in low orbit, maybe they could incorporate a ray gun, and zap anyone who posts bulldust. :beach:

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:10 pm

TJrandom wrote:With full coverage, and in low orbit, maybe they could incorporate a ray gun, and zap anyone who posts bulldust. :beach:

Decimating this forum...
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:31 pm

:sr: :neener: :beg:

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:14 pm

gorgeous wrote:good....you will believe it too eventually....wait and see....


I can see why you would believe this. After all, the internet is where you get your crap ideas from. But you need to develop your argument, and present evidence.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:53 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:With full coverage, and in low orbit, maybe they could incorporate a ray gun, and zap anyone who posts bulldust. :beach:

Decimating this forum...

It would burn off the atmosphere and leave this planet a barren cinder.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:58 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:With full coverage, and in low orbit, maybe they could incorporate a ray gun, and zap anyone who posts bulldust. :beach:

Decimating this forum...

It would burn off the atmosphere and leave this planet a barren cinder.

And there might be a downside as well.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:12 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
gorgeous wrote:good....you will believe it too eventually....wait and see....


I can see why you would believe this. After all, the internet is where you get your crap ideas from. But you need to develop your argument, and present evidence.

--------------no ...I get my ideas from my own psychic, miraculous healings, near death experiences, out of body experiences and those of my relatives as well as others.........also from books I have read...I don't argue...just give info you guys choose to ignore....you too will experience all of it one day and change your beliefs...-------- "Experience alone can decide on truth". - Albert Einstein
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:16 pm

gorgeous would be the first to go.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:39 pm

gorgeous wrote:--------------no ...I get my ideas from my own psychic, miraculous healings, near death experiences, out of body experiences



That is far worse. It makes it clear that your ideas are, in fact, based on insanity. Joan of Arc heard voices, and was schizophrenic. What do you suffer from?

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:43 pm

expanded awareness.....something you will experience eventually....maybe in another lifetime....or on your deathbed...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:36 pm

Expanded awareness of the kind you refer to can be obtained by illness or drugs.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:20 pm

not always...and those can be dangerous
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:20 pm

The point is, gorgeous, that this kind of expanded awareness is dubious and misleading, just like what happens to you on drugs.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby gorgeous » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:41 pm

nope
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:45 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Even places like China and North Korea could not stop their citizens getting full access to all the information on the global internet. Potentially, it could cause governments to topple, as their citizens discover what has been kept hidden from them.


I don't think this is true. The same argument was made about radio and broadcasting "the truth" into places like Germany and Russia during WWII and the Cold War. It didn't make a dent.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:48 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Even places like China and North Korea could not stop their citizens getting full access to all the information on the global internet. Potentially, it could cause governments to topple, as their citizens discover what has been kept hidden from them.


I don't think this is true. The same argument was made about radio and broadcasting "the truth" into places like Germany and Russia during WWII and the Cold War. It didn't make a dent.

There's a difference between Radio Free Europe broadcasts and total access to the whole internet.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:00 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:There's a difference between Radio Free Europe broadcasts and total access to the whole internet.
Fair enough.

I just don't see how "unlimited access" to the internet would work. If people can download anything, then people can upload anything. You couldn't tell if anything was true or not.

Currently we use the citation system and someone seeking good information can work their way back through the citations and that may include books, actual experiments and locations you have to actually visit. I can't see how unlimited access to the internet can improve on that.


At best I would agree that unlimited access to the internet can reveal things that had been totally censored. However once revealed, the real nature of those same things can be distorted by other incorrect internet information.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
I just don't see how "unlimited access" to the internet would work. If people can download anything, then people can upload anything. You couldn't tell if anything was true or not.

Matt, they already do that. :roll:
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gord » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:08 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:put 4,425 satellites into low Earth orbit

Just what we need, more junk in orbit.

Thanks, Trump.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:24 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:There's a difference between Radio Free Europe broadcasts and total access to the whole internet.
Fair enough.

I just don't see how "unlimited access" to the internet would work. If people can download anything, then people can upload anything. You couldn't tell if anything was true or not.

Currently we use the citation system and someone seeking good information can work their way back through the citations and that may include books, actual experiments and locations you have to actually visit. I can't see how unlimited access to the internet can improve on that.


At best I would agree that unlimited access to the internet can reveal things that had been totally censored. However once revealed, the real nature of those same things can be distorted by other incorrect internet information.

Small example, but access did a number on a good number of Mormons who finally got to see what their leaders had really been up to. Exmormon.org and similar sites seem quite informative, sincere and supportive.
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:33 am

Gord wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:put 4,425 satellites into low Earth orbit

Just what we need, more junk in orbit.

Thanks, Trump.

Small price to pay if Vanavutu can watch old South Park episodes, don't you think?
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:43 am

There's one (IMNSHO) big advantage to global internet access, people who are lost or stranded can yell for help from anywhere, if they have the gear with them. Imagine life boats with netbooks as part of the standard supply package.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:54 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Elon Musk, who runs SpaceX, has asked consent to put 4,425 satellites into low Earth orbit, to act as internet information carriers. This has a very potent potential social impact. Such a system would cover each and every nation on the planet, and would stop all government barriers to internet access. Even places like China and North Korea could not stop their citizens getting full access to all the information on the global internet. Potentially, it could cause governments to topple, as their citizens discover what has been kept hidden from them.

The question is whether such a development is positive or negative. We all know that the internet is full of total crap. We get contributors to this forum, like gorgeous and others, who collect absolute bulldust off the internet and believe it. There are others who deliberately post fake news on web sites to attract advertisements, and make money. The last American presidential election may have been altered by such lies.

The internet is also a way that those with prejudice and horrible beliefs, such as racist ideas, spread their poison. So will a truly global internet be a good thing or a bad thing?

I have learned that while this is possible, this would NOT be helpful everywhere except for those who privately OWN their own means to access such communications. In my city, they've successfully removed ALL satellites from rental places like apartment buildings. An incentive was created to do roof repairs which then led to a requirement via 'insurance' for a greater liability for owners should they allow such things like satellite dishes anywhere on the buildings. At first, some who had such services tried to move their dishes to the yards. But even this only favored those who had access to the south facing locations. This was also abandoned as a right and so those who rent (which necessarily assures all who are too poor to even own) are not allowed by virtue of this to have such services.

Also, other tricks were used to force rentals to go through specific providers. And the way there is a conflict of 'right' to the physical lines involved in the buildings, the owners of the building have a default power to access these regardless of the fact that the individual renters are still liable to the services. As such, for instance, when my building didn't like me having our traditional phone service for having a vested interest in another, they cut my line. I contacted the phone company and they just asserted this a building problem and the landowners just passed the buck back to them as being 'responsible'. Thus I had to accept the only remaining company. [The vested interest to the building was through an association set up to completely deregulate the rents here with the cable company favored as being the significant corporate sponsor. The only other corporate sponsor was our city polices, which seemed odd. But it makes sense if it means police have access to building owners through those lines to tap without a need to legal accountability. This just discriminates further against the poor.

So while places like the middle east most favors those satellites to provide free access to the world, we are having preanticipated actions to prevent such free access. And because satellite access also 'frees' one to be relatively more private, this is unwelcomed as it makes it less possible for those, especially the ones who might be most motivated to USE such communications in questionable ways, from easy access. AND since most 'trouble' comes FROM the impoverished classes most significantly, this control biases this specifically to the POOR for the sake of the understood connection of this to those who are most linked to criminal behavior, like 'terrorism'.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:17 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Even places like China and North Korea could not stop their citizens getting full access to all the information on the global internet. Potentially, it could cause governments to topple, as their citizens discover what has been kept hidden from them.


I don't think this is true. The same argument was made about radio and broadcasting "the truth" into places like Germany and Russia during WWII and the Cold War. It didn't make a dent.


Just look at what happened with the US election... Oh, wait... government toppled. Carry on....

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:03 pm

Scott

The iridium network does not require big parabolic antennae to access a satellite. Elon Musk is no fool, and I do not see him setting up a satellite network that requires them, either. I suspect it will all be accessible via hand held smart phones.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Scott

The iridium network does not require big parabolic antennae to access a satellite. Elon Musk is no fool, and I do not see him setting up a satellite network that requires them, either. I suspect it will all be accessible via hand held smart phones.

Yes, I forgot this because I don't own a cell phone! I haven't even tried to set up a non-cable television to the digital airwaves yet. But for what little I so far tested, I was unable. I thought the new televisions used this kind of tech but apparently I need a separate antennae.
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Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:15 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: At best I would agree that unlimited access to the internet can reveal things that had been totally censored. However once revealed, the real nature of those same things can be distorted by other incorrect internet information.
scrmbldggs wrote:Small example, but access did a number on a good number of Mormons who finally got to see what their leaders had really been up to. Exmormon.org and similar sites seem quite informative, sincere and supportive.
I understand your point.

I'm going to say something weird. I'm thinking that humans should not get their entertainment and their truth from the same source. (ie uncensored internet satellites floating around Earth).

I first argue that for the obvious reason that people can load up false stories on those satellites and the users will not be able to tell the difference between false and real stories.

However, I secondly argue that, psychologically humans should have clear and identifiable separations between sources of entertainment and truth..........so they don't start mixing up a bit of both in their heads.

I can produce a set of financial reports "that are true" by following international accounting conventions and having those accounts audited by an auditor. I wonder if the world could establish "chartered librarians" who review and "sign off" each new story, as "true" or "not true" like an auditor does for a set of financial reports. Some sort of "seal of accuracy".

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:18 pm

Just an aside here – but in WW3, China will be taking out the satellites, and if there are that many in low earth orbit, there will be a whole lot of debris falling back to earth. Of course this will likely be the least of our problems, but something to consider when contemplating building that secure hardened shelter for any preppers out there.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:42 pm

To Matthew

About 'Truth' on the internet.
There are researcher already working on computer checking of how factual internet posts are. The idea is that, in the future, the internet will have a rating of factuality on every post. I am not sure how this will work. Probably something fairly inconspicuous, like a number between 1 and 10. 10 might mean absolutely true, and 1 a total lie. This number will attach to every internet post and message. That would help a lot. Gorgeous and Kwan would collect a lot of 1's!

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby TJrandom » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:45 pm

Negitive 1`s no doubt... :lol:

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:28 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:There are researchers already working on computers checking of how factual internet posts are. The idea is that, in the future, the internet will have a rating of factuality on every post. I am not sure how this will work. Probably something fairly inconspicuous, like a number between 1 and 10. 10 might mean absolutely true, and 1 a total lie. This number will attach to every internet post and message. That would help a lot. Gorgeous and Kwan would collect a lot of 1's!


I read about this. I will keep an open mind and see how it goes.

I just think there needs to be an international standard rather than separate media companies assigning 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on according to their individual standards.
:D

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:37 pm

Sounds like a job for the polling companies.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Scott Mayers » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:50 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: At best I would agree that unlimited access to the internet can reveal things that had been totally censored. However once revealed, the real nature of those same things can be distorted by other incorrect internet information.
scrmbldggs wrote:Small example, but access did a number on a good number of Mormons who finally got to see what their leaders had really been up to. Exmormon.org and similar sites seem quite informative, sincere and supportive.
I understand your point.

I'm going to say something weird. I'm thinking that humans should not get their entertainment and their truth from the same source. (ie uncensored internet satellites floating around Earth).

I first argue that for the obvious reason that people can load up false stories on those satellites and the users will not be able to tell the difference between false and real stories.

However, I secondly argue that, psychologically humans should have clear and identifiable separations between sources of entertainment and truth..........so they don't start mixing up a bit of both in their heads.

I can produce a set of financial reports "that are true" by following international accounting conventions and having those accounts audited by an auditor. I wonder if the world could establish "chartered librarians" who review and "sign off" each new story, as "true" or "not true" like an auditor does for a set of financial reports. Some sort of "seal of accuracy".

Like the Better Business Bureaus?

There are many industry standard associations set up that tend to make you question them too when they are actual monopolies that are just pretending to be guardians of the 'virtuous'. But if one uses them voluntarily, it might not be a problem. But then again, isn't this what 'reviews' too are about? ...and these have trust issues as well. We keep needing a new level of cops who watch the cops who watch the cops who... .
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gord » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:56 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:put 4,425 satellites into low Earth orbit

Just what we need, more junk in orbit.

Thanks, Trump.

Small price to pay if Vanavutu can watch old South Park episodes, don't you think?

http://stuffin.space/

Stuff in Space is a real-time 3D map of objects in Earth orbit, updated daily with data from Space-Track.org and using the satellite.js Javascript library to calculate satellite positions. You can right-click on a satellite to get information about it.
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gord » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:01 am

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:16 am

Scott Mayers wrote:Like the Better Business Bureaus?
Nope. Like the International Accounting Standards Board. There is only one of them. Every accountant on the entire planet has to follow the same rules.

Scott Mayers wrote: But if one uses them voluntarily,..
Nope. If you don't follow the rules you can't have your accounts audited by all the auditors on the planet, who must follow The International Auditing and Assurance Standards Board

If you can't get your financial reports audited......then they are not financial reports of any use to anyone, nor can those companies without audited accounts, appear on any stock exchange anywhere in the world. You can't raise money.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Poodle » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:54 am

It does strike me that the means of disseminating information makes no difference to the content or its value. I can actually remember a time when the BBC was the only on-air news source in the UK. Now we have anything-you-like-when-you-want-it. There's still a lot of BS around, and the problem is identifying it as such. Increasing the coverage won't (I suspect) affect that in any way.

Of course, if Elon Musk invents the UBF (Universal BS Filter) before he puts up his satellites, things will be different.

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Re: Total Internet Freedom.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:56 am

Yep, the Internet is a great tester of one's BS filter.
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