Habitual irrational thinking.

How should we think about weird things?
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Lance Kennedy
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Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:15 am

The latest New Scientist has an article on our unconscious minds. In a paragraph on automatic habits (such as driving a car without thinking about it), the article mentioned that patterns of thought can also become habitual, so that people will always draw the same conclusions, due to not actually putting the effort into wondering if things might be different.

This led me to think that maybe those people who are irrational in their thinking, might simply be stuck in a mental groove, and unable to break out of it without a strong effort. Since strong efforts are alien to many people, this does not happen.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Scott Mayers » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The latest New Scientist has an article on our unconscious minds. In a paragraph on automatic habits (such as driving a car without thinking about it), the article mentioned that patterns of thought can also become habitual, so that people will always draw the same conclusions, due to not actually putting the effort into wondering if things might be different.

This led me to think that maybe those people who are irrational in their thinking, might simply be stuck in a mental groove, and unable to break out of it without a strong effort. Since strong efforts are alien to many people, this does not happen.

This would have to be then an observation from outside that person judging their condition. But could it not be the case that while highly improbable, that person could be the only one actually being rational while the rest of us are not? :?
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:33 am

Of course.

That happens every time I express an idea and no one agrees with me.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Scott Mayers » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:31 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Of course.

That happens every time I express an idea and no one agrees with me.

I agree. It happens with me too. Okay, I've just wasted too much time in this post now on 'agreeing' with you damn it! :|

I like agreeing too but think that this is our 'skeptic' disposition. It's more interesting to negate what others posit and I'm one of those who tends to posit more than others. I used to be the one asking questions more often before. But nowadays most are wary enough to avoid positing things that you can challenge OR, ....for forums where you might find a reason to be skeptical, such questioning is unwelcomed and can get you easily banned for not accepting certain pre-conditions of what you can or cannot speak about.
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:20 am

You are perrrmitted to agree with me, Scott. I like agreeable.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby TJrandom » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:30 am

Well, I for one - always put in the effort to think deeply, before posting nonsense... :?

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:08 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:This would have to be then an observation from outside that person judging their condition. But could it not be the case that while highly improbable, that person could be the only one actually being rational while the rest of us are not? :?

Its more than highly improbable.... being asymptotic to impossible. BECAUSE: we are talking about HABITUAL behavior...not single subject contrariness. A person might be right standing against the opinion of the day on any given 1 or 2 issues.....but a whole bunch of them?==>the personal nature of disagreements becomes unmistakable.

BUT, its rare to find any non-majoritarian opinion that stands alone. And thats how Political Parties are formed.
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:23 pm

TJrandom wrote:Well, I for one - always put in the effort to think deeply, before posting nonsense... :?

Likewise, but I find that thinking deeply about donuts does not lend credence to my utterances.
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Angel » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:24 pm

How many people are forced into
habitual irrational thinking because
their elders deem it rational? Thus ~
thinking outside the box gets you
slaughtered.
God I pray they find
Jesus before they
Become ~
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9NF2edxy-M

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:49 pm

Angel

Traditionally, that has held true for religion. Even today, there are countries where admitting to atheism will get you killed.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Angel » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:13 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Angel

Traditionally, that has held true for religion. Even today, there are countries where admitting to atheism will get you killed.


I did not state any particular group as it
applies to all groups.
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:06 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:This led me to think that maybe those people who are irrational in their thinking, might simply be stuck in a mental groove, and unable to break out of it without a strong effort. Since strong efforts are alien to many people, this does not happen.
I thought all humans did as exactly as you have suggested. I take the view, that some of us are constantly self checking themselves to make sure that we are making good decisions.

(That being said, I know I'm a bad offender and repeat the same automatic errors over and over again.....I'm human)


Off Topic
"He who hesitates is lost" VS "Look before you leap"

I propose we all carry around "Skeptic Society Random Number Logic Audit Devices". We push a button on the device every time we make a decision. Every now and then a warning light goes off and we have to sit down and review the logic for our decision in depth.

SSRD checker.jpg
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:07 am

Angel wrote:I did not state any particular group as it
applies to all groups.


You suggested something that gets you killed. Thinking outside the box will not get you killed unless the box is religion. Nothing else prompts such idiotic and irrational action.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 am

Not necessarily by upbringing, but I think stepping outside the norm might also not be the safest thing to do with certain gangs?

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby TJrandom » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:47 am

I was once taken to a `political rally` which I fairly quickly discerned was a KKK rally, and as soon as was possible made my exit instead of speaking up.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Angel » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:05 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Angel wrote:I did not state any particular group as it
applies to all groups.


You suggested something that gets you killed. Thinking outside the box will not get you killed unless the box is religion. Nothing else prompts such idiotic and irrational action.


I would love to see you peeps doing this!!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=76eRj7av8Gg
God I pray they find
Jesus before they
Become ~
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9NF2edxy-M

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Usual Suspect » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:34 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:... This led me to think that maybe those people who are irrational in their thinking, might simply be stuck in a mental groove, and unable to break out of it without a strong effort. Since strong efforts are alien to many people, this does not happen.

Do you think skeptics are immune to this phenomenon?

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:15 am

No one is immune.
I would hope that a competent skeptic would guard against that kind of thinking, but no one is perfect.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:12 pm

Bohr--Everything that we call real is made of stuff that is not real.................------is this irrational?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:16 pm

It is by logic that we prove, but by intuition that we discover.


<<<<— Henri Poincare------------------I’m supposed to be a scientific person but I use intuition more than logic in making basic decisions.


—<<<<< Seymour R. Cray-------------------------The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know why or how.


<<<<<— Albert Einstein----------------------“It is not uncommon for engineers to accept the reality of phenomena that are not yet understood, as it is very common for physicists to disbelieve the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary beliefs of physics” - H. Bauer --------------“Modern science should indeed arouse in all of us a humility before the immensity of the unexplored and a tolerance for crazy hypotheses.”
-Martin Gardner

“Almost all really new ideas have a certain aspect of foolishness when they are first produced.”
- Alfred North Whitehead
-----------------“New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common.”
- John Locke

“All great truths begin as blasphemies.”
- George Bernard Shaw

“Be not astonished at new ideas; for it is well known to you that a thing does not therefore cease to be true because it is not accepted by many.”
- Spinoza
---------“Science might be better served when some scientists generate novel ideas while others carp at everything new, than if all scientists could somehow become disinterestedly skeptical.”
- Dr. Henry H. Bauer -------------“The man who cannot occasionally imagine events and conditions of existence that are contrary to the causal principle as he knows it will never enrich his science by the addition of a new idea.”
- Max Planck ------------------“There are children playing in the street who could solve some of my top problems in physics, because they have modes of sensory perception that I lost long ago.”
- Robert Oppenheimer

“The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively not by the false appearance of things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice.”
- Schopenhauer
---------------------“When I examined myself and my methods of thought, I came to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge.”
- A. Einstein ------------------------There is no better soporific and sedative than skepticism.”
-Nietzche -----------“The skeptic will say, ‘It may well be true that this system of equations is reasonable from a logical standpoint, but this does not prove that it corresponds to nature.’ You are right, dear skeptic. Experience alone can decide on truth. - Albert Einstein --------------------“Science for me is very close to art. Scientific discovery is an irrational act. It’s an intuition which turns out to be reality at the end of it—and I see no difference between a scientist developing a marvellous discovery and an artist making a painting.”
- C. Rubbia, Nobelist and director of CERN--------------------------“Scientists are not the paragons of rationality, objectivity, openmindedness and humility that many of them might like others to believe.”
- Marcello Truzzi, CSICOP
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:11 pm

Gorgeous

As always, you misinterpret what great people say.
Intuition is a form of thinking, but which relies more upon the subconscious than the conscious mind. It has its uses. It also has its dangers. That is where science comes in.

Science requires everything to be empirically tested. This is extra important in relation to intuitive conclusions. If a great scientist has an intuition related to a scientific problem, then he/she has to design an experiment to test, in the real world, that intuition, to see if it has any validity. Most do not.

As an example of the dangers of intuition, take the intuitive judgement of another human. Research has shown that the most powerful input into such intuition is prejudice. An employer might be considering Jake Goldsmith for a job, and his intuition says no. The subconscious reason for that intuition is that the employer is an anti-semite. But his conscious mind will not allow him to take that into account. Instead it comes through as a subconscious intutition.

Intuition may be useful, and may reveal useful conclusions. But as often or more, it spits out garbage. The way to separate the two is with scientific testing.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:18 pm

great scientists value intuition ------: Einstein On Creative Thinking: Music and the Intuitive Art of Scientific
www.psychologytoday.com/.../einstein-cr ... and-the-...‎

----------For Einstein, insight did not come from logic or mathematics. It came, as it does for artists, from intuition and inspiration. As he told one friend, "When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come close to the conclusion that the gift of imagination has meant more to me than any talent for absorbing absolute knowledge." Elaborating, he added, "All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge. I believe in intuition and inspiration.... At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason." Thus, his famous statement that, for creative work in science, "Imagination is more important than knowledge" (Calaprice, 2000, 22, 287, 10). -------------Einstein first described his intuitive thought processes at a physics conference in Kyoto in 1922, when he indicated that he used images to solve his problems and found words later (Pais, 1982). Einstein explicated this bold idea at length to one scholar of creativity in 1959, telling Max Wertheimer that he never thought in logical symbols or mathematical equations, but in images, feelings, and even musical architectures (Wertheimer, 1959, 213-228). Einstein's autobiographical notes reflect the same thought: "I have no doubt that our thinking goes on for the most part without the use of symbols, and, furthermore, largely unconsciously" (Schilpp, pp. 8-9). Elsewhere he wrote even more baldly that "[n]o scientist thinks in equations" (Infeld, 1941, 312). -------------------Einstein only employed words or other symbols (presumably mathematical) -- in what he explicitly called a secondary translation step -- after he was able to solve his problems through the formal manipulation of internally imagined images, feelings, and architectures. "I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express it in words afterwards," he wrote (Wertheimer, 1959, 213; Pais, 1982).

Einstein expanded on this theme in a letter to fellow mathematician Jacques Hadamard, writing that "[t]he words of the language, as they are written or spoken, do not seem to play any role in my mechanism of thought. The psychical entities which seem to serve as elements in thought are certain signs and more or less clear images which can be 'voluntarily' reproduced and combined.... The above mentioned elements are, in my case of visual and some of a muscular type.... Conventional words or other signs [presumably mathematical ones] have to be sought for laboriously only in a secondary stage, when the associative play already referred to is sufficiently established and can be reproduced at will" (Hadamard, 1945, 142-3).
---------------------In other interviews, he attributed his scientific insight and intuition mainly to music. "If I were not a physicist," he once said, "I would probably be a musician. I often think in music. I live my daydreams in music. ------------------After playing piano, his sister Maja said, he would get up saying, "There, now I've got it" (quoted in Sayen, 1985, 26). Something in the music would guide his thoughts in new and creative directions. ----------------------------These speculations about music, space and time in Einstein's imaginative thinking certainly fit with something the physicist told the great pioneer of musical education, Shinichi Suzuki: "The theory of relativity occurred to me by intuition, and music is the driving force behind this intuition."
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:22 pm

-------------------There is no logical way to the discovery of these elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance.
Albert Einstein -----------------------------The two operations of our understanding, intuition and deduction, on which alone we have said we must rely in the acquisition of knowledge.---Descarte-----------------------------------Intuition will tell the thinking mind where to look next.----------
Jonas Salk --------------------------------------------
--------------- I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.

— Albert Einstein
-----Cosmic Religion: With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931), ------------------It is by logic that we prove, but by intuition that we discover.

— Henri Poincaré

In Science and Method (1908) translated by Francis Maitland (1914, 2007),-----------------The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know why or how.

— Albert Einstein------------------“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.”

― Albert Einstein
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:11 pm

gorgeous wrote:great scientists value intuition
Yes dear we already know that..............

A scientist may have an intuitive hunch and write a loose conjecture. However, if that same scientist thinks his or her hunch has merit that scientist will then compose a complete testable scientific hypothesis. In the science community the most obvious example is Sir Issac Newton and his apple.
Newton.jpg

You seem to have, yet another insane belief, that scientists wake up one morning with a fully set out scientific hypothesis.
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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:02 pm

And most important, all scientists test their ideas. Without solid empirical testing, an idea is pure garbage. Scientists may value intuition, but they also value, even more, the process of validating ideas by empirical testing.

When Gorgeous regurgitates ideas about aliens called Seth, she is failing to apply the principle of empirical testing.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:25 pm

I can imagine a scenario, in 1901, of Albert Einstein working in his patent office job, first thinking about relativity, I can imagine him muttering to himself "No, that can't be right" about the direction he was thinking in. He eventually decides to put it down on paper and have a serious look. Einstein then composes a full working hypothesis and goes public.

My point, and what Gorgeous never can understand, is that thinking weird intuitive thoughts is a private thing and everyone on our planet does that. It's when you make a public claim that you have to have a testable fully composed hypothesis ready to go.

Gorgeous is here, spamming his "intuitive" crap about magical lizard aliens and channeling alcoholics with ESP, with no working hypothesis as to how any of this things can be true or even work. He hasn't got past the the first step yet.

(I need to add a qualification : Sometimes people can do weird experiments in groups, based on a hunch just to obtain the basic date to allow them to think some more. Rutherford spend weekends breaking rocks to find lead, to get basic date so he could think more about half life decay) :D

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:41 pm

where is the empirical test proving you exist?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:44 pm

gorgeous wrote:where is the empirical test proving you exist?
In my hospital medical reports.

Where's the operating manual that turns you, a spam-bot software program, off? :lol:

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:45 am

Right in the UCP. It's called the Plonk Function. :heh:

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby ThePragmatic » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:42 pm

It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it.
His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition.
- Bertrand Russell
"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:36 pm

see above posts^^ for allegiance to science dogma...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:00 pm

I prefer the term 'scientific method' to science dogma. The difference is that dogma is often bulldust, whereas the scientific method is proven to work. The method gorgeous uses is called 'gullibility'. He/she or it reads something in a crackpot web site and chooses to believe the nonsense. Gullibility!

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:18 pm

gorgeous wrote:see above posts^^ for allegiance to science dogma...


The Conflicting Dogmas of Gorgeous
1) There is a God who protect humans from the evil alien lizard people and Illuminati, who want to control the world.

2) The Alien Lizard people secretly control the world, keeping the Illuminati in check and God can't stop them.

3) The Illuminati secretly control the world keeping the alien Lizard people in check and God can't stop them.


Which of your current claims is true today Gorgeous? :lol:

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:34 pm

The steps of the scientific method go something like this:

•Make an observation or observations.
•Ask questions about the observations and gather information.
•Form a hypothesis — a tentative description of what's been observed, and make predictions based on that hypothesis.
------------a ufo is seen, various info is gathered....a description is made.....likely other ufos will be seen sometime..........proven by science...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:36 pm

in remote viewing....images are seen, info about a target is given...details of the target are given....as many have given the same details anyone can do it.....remote viewing is legit and available to all humans....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Gord » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:22 am

gorgeous wrote:The steps of the scientific method go something like this:

•Make an observation or observations.
•Ask questions about the observations and gather information.
•Form a hypothesis — a tentative description of what's been observed, and make predictions based on that hypothesis....

You missed a few steps, particularly "test with an experiment":

Image
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:23 am

the definition didn't mention it...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:04 am

Gord wrote:You missed a few steps, particularly "test with an experiment"
gorgeous wrote:the definition didn't mention it...

The words "test with an experiment" is in the green box you are looking at.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:55 am

In fact, the test step is the MOST crucial. The three steps gorgeous mentioned are common to a range of systems of knowledge, including religious nonsense. It is the testing step that separates science from the rest, and gives science its strength.

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Re: Habitual irrational thinking.

Postby gorgeous » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:06 am

remote viewing has been tested and works
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.


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