Spiritual Enlightenment ?

How should we think about weird things?
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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:03 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Angel wrote:I'd go away Mat but I wouldn't feel right leaving all this garbage behind.


Why don't you stick to one particular thread, in the community section and develop your style in that thread?

At the moment you simply come across like Gorgeous, spamming every thread with "look at me...look at me" which simply disrupts everyone else's conversation.


Your assumptions make you look like ~
not well. I correct things. Where so
ever they are. I go where I am
required. Do you only dry
some of your body when you shower?
Still wet behind the ears ~ turning to
green gills?
I do not need style. Only the truth.

Scepticism & Critical thinking is the only
one that shows up in my most active forums.
You seem to be the one running around
the forum like a chicken with its head
cut off.
Last edited by Angel on Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:JAngel, this is not a suggestion or recommendation. It's merely a sharing of information: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25269


I am merely sharing information yet
you ( no so pro) protest it.
Knowledge goes where it's needed
rather than where you want it to go.
That's nature.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:53 pm

Angel

I do not mean to be impolite, but I do not seem to find much, if any, real information in your posts. I like data I can get my teeth into, and you do not supply it.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:00 am

Angel wrote: I correct things.
Nope. Never. Not once.

There is no difference between your posts and Gorgeous's spamming the same 15 false quotes five hundred times in every thread, and her thinking she's somehow debating skeptics. She is simply irritating.

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Angel wrote: I correct things.
Nope. Never. Not once.

There is no difference between your posts and Gorgeous's spamming the same 15 false quotes five hundred times in every thread, and her thinking she's somehow debating skeptics. She is simply irritating.


The things you hate most about
others are the things you hate
most about yourself. Please refrain
from projecting your ways on mine.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:44 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Angel

I do not mean to be impolite, but I do not seem to find much, if any, real information in your posts. I like data I can get my teeth into, and you do not supply it.


That's fine as it is your way. Please do not
expect I will follow. I prefer the truth.

It's way lighter than all that baggage. ;)
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:57 pm

Angel wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Angel

I do not mean to be impolite, but I do not seem to find much, if any, real information in your posts. I like data I can get my teeth into, and you do not supply it.


That's fine as it is your way. Please do not
expect I will follow. I prefer the truth.

It's way lighter than all that baggage. ;)


Angel.
Good data is the truth.
Speculation and inspiration is mostly hogwash.
The reason science has delivered such amazing results is because it rejects bulldust and only accepts that which can be shown by strong evidence to be real. If you have a desire for truth, then to succeed in getting it, you have to look for the credible evidence. This is what skeptics do. Skeptics are the most sincere searchers after truth, and (even more important), they are the most successful at finding the truth.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:51 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Angel wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:Angel

I do not mean to be impolite, but I do not seem to find much, if any, real information in your posts. I like data I can get my teeth into, and you do not supply it.


That's fine as it is your way. Please do not
expect I will follow. I prefer the truth.

It's way lighter than all that baggage. ;)


Angel.
Good data is the truth.
Speculation and inspiration is mostly hogwash.
The reason science has delivered such amazing results is because it rejects bulldust and only accepts that which can be shown by strong evidence to be real. If you have a desire for truth, then to succeed in getting it, you have to look for the credible evidence. This is what skeptics do. Skeptics are the most sincere searchers after truth, and (even more important), they are the most successful at finding the truth.


Ah yesss ~ most successful ....
That's why there are more rich
doctors than there are living
patients. :shock:
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby TJrandom » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:01 am

Nearly 28 doctors for every 10,000 patients in the US. And as an aside - by definition, patients are living. If they die, they are no longer patients.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1860 ... ince-1975/

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:05 am

TJrandom wrote:Nearly 28 doctors for every 10,000 patients in the US. And as an aside - by definition, patients are living. If they die, they are no longer patients.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1860 ... ince-1975/


I have it on good authority
they are being patient . ;-)
How many dead people on this planet
are there?

Ps~ how well do you know death?
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby TJrandom » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:11 am

Slip and slide
Angel on a ride
Doesn`t know Doctors
Are alive and patients too
More woo.... boo hoo...

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:41 am

TJrandom wrote:Slip and slide
Angel on a ride
Doesn`t know Doctors
Are alive and patients too
More woo.... boo hoo...


Just the facts mam~
just the facts... :roll:

Didn't comment on the lives of doctors.
How many patients are dying?
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:07 am

Just the facts, angel?

How about the fact that we are all living longer, and suffer far less from disease. This is dramatically true for infectious disease, but is also true even for cancer. Survival from cancer is now at a historical high. Doctors and the entire medical system are doing a pretty good job.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby TJrandom » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:10 am

Angel wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Slip and slide
Angel on a ride
Doesn`t know Doctors
Are alive and patients too
More woo.... boo hoo...


Just the facts mam~
just the facts... :roll:

Didn't comment on the lives of doctors.
How many patients are dying?


Every patient is dying - including every doctor. Doctors delay the inevitable as most patients desire.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Gord » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:55 am

Angel wrote:How many dead people on this planet
are there?

All of them, so far. ...Yoda.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:34 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Angel wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Slip and slide
Angel on a ride
Doesn`t know Doctors
Are alive and patients too
More woo.... boo hoo...


Just the facts mam~
just the facts... :roll:

Didn't comment on the lives of doctors.
How many patients are dying?


Every patient is dying - including every doctor. Doctors delay the inevitable as most patients desire.


No not Every patient is dying.
Doctors die because they believe
what they are trained to believe.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:36 pm

Gord wrote:
Angel wrote:How many dead people on this planet
are there?

All of them, so far. ...Yoda.


Otay buckwheat .
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:00 pm

TJrandom wrote:Nearly 28 doctors for every 10,000 patients in the US. And as an aside - by definition, patients are living. If they die, they are no longer patients.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1860 ... ince-1975/


106,000 died last year from medical errors. That's a lot of ex-patients.

But, to be fair, some of the dead used to be doctors who trusted other doctors. ;)
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:03 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Just the facts, angel?

How about the fact that we are all living longer, and suffer far less from disease. This is dramatically true for infectious disease, but is also true even for cancer. Survival from cancer is now at a historical high. Doctors and the entire medical system are doing a pretty good job.


That used to be true, but US life expectancy has been in decline for several years. Obesity and drug use (both legal and illegal) are taking their toll.
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:00 pm

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /16874039/

Actually, Paul, the USA reached a record high for life expectancy in 2014. While the figures always jump up and down a bit year by year, there is no reason to believe it is falling.

For the world as a whole, it is now around 65, while it was 31 years in the year 1900AD. More than double. My statement that life span is increasing holds true, and shows that the medical profession are doing an excellent job.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:For the world as a whole, it is now around 65, while it was 31 years in the year 1900AD. More than double.


Now that was interesting.

I suddenly realise the blatantly obvious, that if the average life expectancy has doubled, then its not just more humans but a huge portion of that, is the same humans living longer. I know its obvious. I just didn't think about the significance.

The population of the world was only 1.6 billion in 1900AD and 6.1 billion in 2000.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:43 am

So true, Matt.
Currently, the averal global fertility is 2.4. Since replacement is 2.1, that would mean a very slow increase in population. However, it is growing faster than this, and the reason is that people are living longer than ever.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:20 am

The reason the population is exploding is because the gov' pays well for producing
babies. A couple with 10 kids can get ~
probably 15 thousand per month.
Poor people can't get jobs that pay
this well so they make babies.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:35 am

Angel wrote:The reason the population is exploding is because the gov' pays well for producing babies. A couple with 10 kids can get ~probably 15 thousand per month. Poor people can't get jobs that pay this well so they make babies.


Exactly the opposite is happening. Wealthy countries are heading towards zero population growth and thus there are government incentives to have children in wealthy countries.

It is the developing countries, without social security, but slightly better food and medical services that are mass breeding male children to look after aged parents.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:50 am

I go further than that, Matt.
Wealthy countries produce fewer children than replacement. Western nations without a drop in population have substantial immigration.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Angel wrote:The reason the population is exploding is because the gov' pays well for producing babies. A couple with 10 kids can get ~probably 15 thousand per month. Poor people can't get jobs that pay this well so they make babies.


Exactly the opposite is happening. Wealthy countries are heading towards zero population growth and thus there are government incentives to have children in wealthy countries.

It is the developing countries, without social security, but slightly better food and medical services that are mass breeding male children to look after aged parents.


Oh how I wish all people could see
the truth about Canada and how
the people born here ~ really live.

The truth hurts.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:00 am

Angel wrote: Oh how I wish all people could see the truth about Canada and how the people born here ~ really live. The truth hurts.


Considering you don't know much about Canada and certainly don't know anything about other countries around the world, your view would be worthless.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:The population of the world was only 1.6 billion in 1900AD and 6.1 billion in 2000.


People! Those numbers have to mean something. I don't know what it could be, but it Must.Be.Something!!!
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Dr F » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:55 am

Not sure if this is real skeptic forum or not.

But I do want to dissect this post about enlightenment from my other forum
-------



Craig wrote:

1. But I guess I'm interested in how an enlightened person differs from a normal well balanced open minded person.

2. Once you become enlightened, does it last for the rest of your life?
or can it come and go?

3. How many people would you estimate that are enlightened that are alive today?

-------------------


Again, I could use some help here. My experiences are very limited, and I can only answer from my experiences.

1. I’m not sure what a “normal well balanced opened minded person” is or looks like, Craig. Would that be a person who lives a life in consensus reality? Can you name or think of a person who satisfies that definition for you? I can only think of just a couple, at best. Those people seem largely free of anxiety, guilt, worry, and they seem to be full of sincerity, humor, goodwill. But they do seem to exhibit cares.

The very few people who have claimed to be liberated that I have met are that, but they appear to have no cares. Reasonable people might call them fools. They are free. (They have been liberated mainly from what they thought was themselves.) They appear to be at-peace with themselves, although they can express anger or other emotions genuinely or authentically and think nothing of it. Indeed, the only thinking that seems to go on is what’s been called “operational thinking,” not discursive thinking (which tends to focus on the “I” centrally).

Oddly, to me, all liberated beings have all had basically kept their own personalities (which I can’t quite explain to you why). When I’ve asked them about reality, they respond immediately without any hesitation as though they were simply telling me the color of the wall behind me. Nothing seems to bother them. I think I am a person and I think there are persons all around me, but to them personhood seems to be a linguistic construction, essentially a fiction. They also seem to be completely engaged without artifice or guile present.

Who do you know who walks the earth in complete freedom? A liberated person appears to from what I see.

2. There appears to be difference between enlightenment or realization and liberation. The former two provide insights that may last for quite sometime or for just a little while: that is, a realization of non duality (viz., there is no difference between the perceiver, the perception, and that which is perceived). Almost everyone who seems to be liberated says that realization or enlightenment does not last for long initially, but it opens a door and one never fully returns to the old being or views. One realizes that non duality exists (“I’ve *seen* it”), and one tries to find one’s way back because it is a powerful experience.

There are many journals and books that talk about this intermediate stage and the sufferings it can bring to people who want to be in a nondual state once again. It appears that seeing non duality must be fully assimilated into being to become liberated, and folks report that that process on average takes 7-25 years to complete. (Look at Adyashanti’s book for a descriptions and discussions of the so-called issues: “The End of Your World: Uncensored Straight Talk on the Nature of Enlightenment”) Many people come to understand the issues of realization cognitively, but that doesn’t count for anything. (In fact, it adds another layer of delusion.) One has to *see it* directly. (The rest is simply conceptualization, and conceptualizations cannot be applied to non duality.)

Once one is liberated, has fully assimilated all realizations, then they are done (liberated). However, what that really looks like is not what one might want (See, Jed McKenna’s new book, “Dream State: A conspiracy theory”) because there is no longer a “you” or “I” (as you experience it now) to, er . . . enjoy it.

3. I think there are more liberated people in the world at any one time than one might imagine. If I think about those beings I have met or have experienced, I might say very few. But all of those beings are teachers, and there is no reason for me to assume that all liberated beings want to be teachers or find themselves in the roles of teacher. Indeed, it seems, there is nothing *to teach* or that can be taught about enlightenment / liberation (not really). Furthermore, what can one really say about such things? As the saying goes, the more you know, the less you can say productively.

Lama Tsong Khapa wrote that the spirit of enlightenment was to hang out here in conventional reality until all beings were liberated. Other masters have said that the best thing one could do for the world was to achieve liberation, and magnetically or charismatically, one would influence the greatest number of beings. That is: “Doing” anything does nothing. Not even teaching . Other masters (Tony Parsons, for example) says there is nothing to teach because being is all already liberated (but is just not aware of it).

So there could be many beings who are liberated but are simply a part of the common social fabric everywhere.

It’s been said: At first there was a mountain, then there was no mountain, and finally there is a mountain again. In the Eastern mythological story of the Ten-Ox Herding Pictures, the seeker looks for enlightenment, finds pieces or partialities, and struggles to see and understand it all. Along the way, one fully realizes enlightenment and becomes and lives as a no-thing in an empty world of strict appearances. In the final pictoral or stage, one fully assimilates enlightenment / liberation and returns to their old role and position to live out a life seemingly in the mundane world—only now with full realization of what and how things really are everywhere. (A similar story is told about Jonah and the Whale.) Here / there, in this last image, nothing is special, nothing is important, nothing is distinctive, and nothing can be evaluated. There is no good or bad, right or wrong. Everything is different from every other thing, yet everything is the same (just an appearance). All paradoxes are reconciled and resolved as heads and tails are on a coin. A liberated yogi goes about his or her business almost invisibly. It’s like they are living in a dream; the dream is real, but nothing in it is.

So to return to the first question, I don’t think one could tell who is liberated and who is not without some realization him or herself. It would not be at all obvious.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:07 am

Other masters (Tony Parsons, for example) says there is nothing to teach because being is all already liberated (but is just not aware of it).

Not that "he" would care, but "he" would most likely (after laughing his arse off) also voice a form of disagreement with being given a title like that. Or being lumped in with those others mentioned - without putting them down, of course. Apparently.


But... what exactly is your goal here, F?
.

Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:27 am

I do not think I would agree with any version of "enlightenment" in the posts above. They are too mystical and unreal. No one, in my so very humble opinion, who does not have feet firmly on the ground and mind entrenched in reality, can be called enlightened. Idiot might be a better descriptor.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:26 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Angel wrote: Oh how I wish all people could see the truth about Canada and how the people born here ~ really live. The truth hurts.


Considering you don't know much about Canada and certainly don't know anything about other countries around the world, your view would be worthless.


my view is priceless lol

But that has not to do with what
you quoted. Adding insults only
belittles yourself.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:32 pm

Enlightened is only knowing the truth ~
making the burden light.
Sure people go back to being liars &
deceives . Mostly for the money because
this social world doesn't exist without
money and they believe they will die
without It ~ but what is death
when you are enlightened ? Circle jerk of life.
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:38 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I do not think I would agree with any version of "enlightenment" in the posts above. They are too mystical and unreal. No one, in my so very humble opinion, who does not have feet firmly on the ground and mind entrenched in reality, can be called enlightened. Idiot might be a better descriptor.


Feet firmly on the ground~ like artists &
entertainers? People worship them and
they have their heads in the clouds all
the time. Where do you think they get
their ideas from?
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

Dr F
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Dr F » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:44 pm

I love this part, he can't figure out what a “normal well balanced opened minded person” is or looks like.

They look like all of us, we are the normal well balanced opened minded people the people that discuss this kind of stuff.


1. I’m not sure what a “normal well balanced opened minded person” is or looks like, Craig. Would that be a person who lives a life in consensus reality? Can you name or think of a person who satisfies that definition for you? I can only think of just a couple, at best. Those people seem largely free of anxiety, guilt, worry, and they seem to be full of sincerity, humor, goodwill. But they do seem to exhibit cares.

.


Yes, a consensus reality., what other types are there?
There are delusional realities that would be considered non-consensus.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Canadian Skeptic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:39 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Cue Canadian Skeptic? :-P

(Just let it be said that I wrote that^ before you added the last sentence! :lol:)

Lol. Okay. I guess it *has* been a while since I’ve said much here.

Dr F wrote:My interpretation, use profound sounding language as a tool to bamboozle readers//

To be honest, I don’t think so. The language definitely isn’t accessible, but there’s nothing especially “bamboozling” to it in the way that, for example, Deepak Chopra speaks. Deepak’s statements are utterly meaningless. But if you take the time to parse the meaning of this post, there is a certain logic to it — not that I think the arguments are correct, but more that I don’t think it’s a deliberate attempt to win by confusion.

Essentially, Searle is challenging two theories of consciousness — the behavioural model and a computational model — which he suggests are representative of the field as a whole. I don’t know that he’s accurately representing the field by reducing it to those two theories, but I won’t bother arguing that point. Rather, I’ll show that, even if those particular theories eventually do prove insufficient, Searle’s criticisms fail to put the nail in their coffin.

Searle wrote:On behavioural theories:

[1] There is no logical connection, no necessary connection between inner, subjective, qualitative mental states and external, publicly observable behavior.

[2]Of course, in actual fact, conscious states characteristically cause behavior. But the behavior that they cause has to be distinguished from the states themselves.

Searle appears to contradict his position here. If, as in [2], “in actual fact, conscious states characteristically cause behaviour,” then it logically flows that there is a necessary connection between mental states and publicly observable behaviour. This, however, contradicts [1]. There is a connection between mental states and behaviour, and we know this — even Searle admits it in [2]. So [1] can’t be true. It’s also worth noting that unconscious states are often more relevant than conscious ones are when it comes to behaviour, but that’s a moot point concerning Searle’s arguments.

He goes on to state that behavior must be distinguished from the mental states themselves to demonstrate consciousness, and I agree with him. The Turing test, for example, was posited as a way to determine if something was conscious. If some computer program were to someday pass the Turing Test -- that is, if a computer could behave in such a way that you could not tell the difference between it and a human -- there would be no other experimental way, it was thought, to differentiate between that computer and a living, breathing, conscious human being. Ergo, from Turing’s perspective, the object must be conscious, because there would be no other way to demonstrate otherwise.

Well, of course tests like this are and were flawed. But the Turing Test was developed in 1950 and, since then, the domain of cognitive science has completely changed. We have far more experimental possibilities to test consciousness, and, moreover, by the time we someday come up with a proper theory of consciousness, those tests will advance further based on the new theories. So this really isn’t a compelling criticism of behavioural science.

Searle wrote: On computer models:

The computational model of consciousness stands to consciousness in the same way the computational model of anything stands to the domain being modeled. Nobody supposes that the computational model of rainstorms in London will leave us all soaked. But they make the mistake of supposing that the computational model of consciousness is somehow conscious.

Seale’s confusion is in conflating the computational model — which is designed to explain, not reproduce, consciousness — with software/hardware that, someday, actually could create consciousness. Just as a computer model of rainstorms in London doesn’t leave us all soaked, computational models of consciousness aren’t designed to leave the computer they’re running in conscious — and no scientist would ever make that claim. However, computational models of rainstorms could be used to create machines that seed clouds, just as a computational model of consciousness could (in theory, anyway) be used to create a conscious machine. There’s a perhaps subtle distinction between a computer model and its application in terms of software and hardware, but it’s an important one that Searle seemingly misses.

Searle wrote:A theory of consciousness needs to explain how a set of neurobiological processes can cause a system to be in a subjective state of sentience or awareness...

We are confusing the epistemic objectivity of scientific investigation with the ontological objectivity of the typical subject matter in science in disciplines such as physics and chemistry...

Searle is correct that a theory needs to explain how, for instance, a set of neurobiological processes can cause a system to be in a subjective state of sentience or awareness, but he hasn’t demonstrated that science can’t do this, or even, frankly, that it hasn’t yet.

He ends by stating scientists are confusing the “epistemic objectivity of scientific investigation with the ontological objectivity of the typical subject matter,” but in reality it’s only Searle who appears to be conflating the two.

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Angel
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Angel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:46 pm

If you created a computer that gave life
to its own battery ~ would it become
enlightened or still thrive off of your
input ?
ADULTS in charge of this world
Must Dominate the Earth.
All the rot~decay creates so called natural gas. Everyone is so lazy~busy living their own special lives~the excess will~
create the greenhouse effect~
deplete the ozone layer~gas go up to burn around the sun making it hotter~the heat will eventually blow up the earth. The bible says no flesh saved alive. Maybe some might live if they make it to the North Pole.
I suggest~
Clean Up The Earth.
Please and Thanx

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Paul Anthony
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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:16 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/08/us-life-expectancy-hits-record-high/16874039/

Actually, Paul, the USA reached a record high for life expectancy in 2014. While the figures always jump up and down a bit year by year, there is no reason to believe it is falling.

For the world as a whole, it is now around 65, while it was 31 years in the year 1900AD. More than double. My statement that life span is increasing holds true, and shows that the medical profession are doing an excellent job.


Compared to other countries, the US ranks 31st with an age of 79.3...worse than Costa Rica and barely better than Cuba. It's 83.7 in Japan.
The average for the world has improved, but US ranking has been declining by comparison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

(Scroll down to see the chart.)
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:21 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I do not think I would agree with any version of "enlightenment" in the posts above. They are too mystical and unreal. No one, in my so very humble opinion, who does not have feet firmly on the ground and mind entrenched in reality, can be called enlightened. Idiot might be a better descriptor.


Having feet firmly planted on the ground and mind entrenched...anywhere...may be appropriate for a tree, but humans aspire to something greater. :)
People who say ALWAYS and NEVER are usually wrong, part of the time.
Science answers questions, Philosophy questions answers.
Make sense, not war.

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Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 am

What, Paul, is this 'something greater'?

As someone who tries to understand the universe from a scientific point of view, I do not think anything greater exists.


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