Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

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Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:08 am

I mean..wtf is structured water ? There's work by Dr Gerard Pollack that 'seems' genuine ( is it ? ) but I also see claims of 'health benefits' and so on and that immediately rings alarms and links with homeopathy. Yet I can find no end of sites espousing 'structured water' and very few debunking all the claims. Could any of you guys who might know a bit more about this topic elaborate ?
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:36 pm

You are surprised that the profit seeking jump on stuff like that and swamp the net?

I found this discussion informative: http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/ques ... eakthrough


Although, I wonder what Pop Haydn has to say about it. :-P
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:33 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:You are surprised that the profit seeking jump on stuff like that and swamp the net?

I found this discussion informative: http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/ques ... eakthrough


Although, I wonder what Pop Haydn has to say about it. :-P


Hard to make head or tail of it all, as at least some of the work of Dr Gerald Pollack is genuine and has even been included in TED talks...but I know even from my own knowledge of physics that this 'EZ water' is just bog standard surface tension stuff caused by the charge differential at the water boundary. So ( as the article you quote says ) its not clear what Pollack has discovered that is 'new', whilst it certainly is clear that some are using this uncertainty to con the gullible into buying 'structured water' devices for 'health benefits'. It all strikes me as being homeopathy via the back door.

What alarmed me most was the sheer scarcity of web sites debunking it all.
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby clarsct » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:07 am

Water will form structures....for picoseconds.(10^-12 seconds...trillionths of a second, that is)

That link has just about everything I was going to say.

Magic water is seldom magic. It's generally just water.
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Scott Mayers » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:22 am

Cygnus_X1 wrote:I mean..wtf is structured water ? There's work by Dr Gerard Pollack that 'seems' genuine ( is it ? ) but I also see claims of 'health benefits' and so on and that immediately rings alarms and links with homeopathy. Yet I can find no end of sites espousing 'structured water' and very few debunking all the claims. Could any of you guys who might know a bit more about this topic elaborate ?

I was with a University of students here who checked out a 'health' expo in which something like this was one of the first things we reviewed. It was trying to sell water in which they argued was quantumly rearranged atomically and had better health benefits. I did take photos but they turned out too fuzzy to see as I used a bad camera. It was clearly a scam though. Unfortunately, the effort to make it appear legit was sufficient to fool the non-critical crowds there. But I even find it just as odd when people take the effort to buy bottled water unnecessarily under the assumption that our local tap waters are contaminated here in North America!
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:48 am

"Structured water" has been debunked and there are several sites available. Alas, you can lead a horse to water...

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swi ... water.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagonal_water
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:51 am

Here's the real deal!




:-P
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Shen1986 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:05 am

Cygnus_X1 wrote:Hard to make head or tail of it all, as at least some of the work of Dr Gerald Pollack is genuine and has even been included in TED talks..


This is not truth. He was a TEDx talk from what I found:

Latest TEDx talk, click here.

New book, released 2013.

The impact of surfaces on the contiguous aqueous phase is generally thought to extend no more than a few water-molecule layers. We find, however, that colloidal and molecular solutes are profoundly excluded from the vicinity of hydrophilic surfaces, to distances up to several hundred micrometers. Such large zones of exclusion have been observed next to many different hydrophilic surfaces, and many diverse solutes are excluded. Hence, the exclusion phenomenon appears to be quite general.
Microspheres excluded from the zone next to hydrophilic gel surface




To test whether the physical properties of the exclusion zone differ from those of bulk water, several methods have been applied so far. NMR, infrared, and birefringence imaging, as well as measurements of electrical potential, viscosity, and UV-VIS and infrared-absorption spectra, collectively reveal that the solute-free zone is a physically distinct, more ordered phase of water. It is much like a liquid crystal. It can co-exist essentially indefinitely with the contiguous solute-containing phase. Indeed, this unexpectedly extensive zone may be a candidate for the long-postulated “fourth phase” of water considered by earlier scientists.

The energy responsible for building this charged, low entropy zone comes from light. We found that incident radiant energy including UV, visible, and near-infrared wavelengths induce exclusion-zone growth in a spectrally sensitive manner. IR is particularly effective. Five-minute exposure to radiation at 3.1 µm (corresponding to OH stretch) causes exclusion-zone-width increase up to three times. Apparently, incident photons cause some change in bulk water that predisposes constituent molecules to reorganize and build the charged, ordered exclusion zone. How this occurs is under study.

Photons from ordinary sunlight, then, may have an unexpectedly powerful effect that goes beyond mere heating. It may be that solar energy builds order and separates charge between the near-surface exclusion zone and the bulk water beyond — the separation effectively creating a battery. This light-induced charge separation resembles the first steps of photosynthesis. Indeed, this light-induced action would seem relevant not only for photosynthetic processes, but also for all realms of nature involving water and interfaces.

The work outlined above was selected in the first cohort of NIH Transformative R01 awards, which will allow deeper and broader exploration. It was also selected as recipient the 2008 University of Washington Annual Lectureship. Each year, out of the University’s 3,800 faculty members, one is chosen to receive this award. Viewable here, the lecture presents the material in a lively manner, accessible to non-experts.

The material now appears in a book, published May 2013, entitled The Fourth Phase of Water: Beyond Solid, Liquid and Vapor. Sample chapters are freely accessible at www.ebnerandsons.com.


Taken from: http://faculty.washington.edu/ghp/resea ... r-science/

Here the site belongs to him: http://faculty.washington.edu/ghp/resea ... r-science/

Gerald H. Pollack, PhD - Professor of Bioengineering - Box 355061 - University of Washington - Seattle WA 98195 - Tel: 206 685-1880 - FAX (shared): 206 685-3300 email: ghp@u.washington.edu


Taken from: http://faculty.washington.edu/ghp/resea ... r-science/


Even when you look into google it comes out this:

http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxGuel ... GuelphU%22

This video was filmed at an independently organized TEDx event and uploaded by the organizer. To flag a video (good or bad!), use this form.

The 4th Phase of Water: Dr. Gerald Pollack at TEDxGuelphU


Taken from: http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxGuel ... GuelphU%22

TEDx is full of pseudoscience:

It was all covered here by me and other skeptics:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23454
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Canadian Skeptic » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:13 pm

It's a pet peeve of mine when people see a TEDx talk and think the "TED" logo gives the talk any kind of credibility. I love TEDx talks - they're a great idea and we put on an annual one every year in my area -- but they're not TED talks and shouldn't be confused with them (and anyway, even TED talks shouldn't be confused with legitimate scholarly inquiry -- something the curators of TED are regularly at pains to remind the public).

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Scott Mayers » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:50 pm

Yeah, I didn't even know the difference until this thread motivated me to look up "TED vs TEDx" in Google.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0NHOpeczUU (I'd plug the link here but now many videos are adapting 'https' protocols as a copyright blocking mechanism.)

It provided a good video explanation but still didn't spell out what the name refers to. I originally assumed this was actually some person's name who created it. It is apparently an acronym and means, "Technology, Entertainment, & Design".
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:59 pm

:blink:




Just delete the 's', or use the provided [video] button in the menu:

phpBB [video]
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Scott Mayers » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:02 am

I tried both even before your advice. Again, it is likely that my location here is blocking my ability to do so out! Using the ytube video button in the menu only shows the data without the image in plain script; and taking out the 's' only automatically replaces it back upon submission.
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:14 am

Scott Mayers wrote:I tried both even before your advice. Again, it is likely that my location here is blocking my ability to do so out! Using the ytube video button in the menu only shows the data without the image in plain script; and taking out the 's' only automatically replaces it back upon submission.

I've encountered that only once or twice and wouldn't know why that is.

But you said "ytube video button", that's not the new "video" button I meant.


Edit: I just tested your link with the "ytube" button and deleted the "s". It worked fine in Preview. They locked you out, Scott. :-P
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:52 am

Canadian Skeptic wrote:It's a pet peeve of mine when people see a TEDx talk and think the "TED" logo gives the talk any kind of credibility. I love TEDx talks - they're a great idea and we put on an annual one every year in my area -- but they're not TED talks and shouldn't be confused with them (and anyway, even TED talks shouldn't be confused with legitimate scholarly inquiry -- something the curators of TED are regularly at pains to remind the public).


So its even more baffling that TED seem quite happy for their logo to be used in regard to such talks..

http://tedxtalks.ted.com/
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Cygnus_X1 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:00 am

Check out the 'online shop' at the bottom of this page....

http://www.criticalshadows.com/qa-mj-pa ... red-water/

'Water Revitalisers'.....for $400 ! I mean....I know there's a lot of stupid people out there, but are there really people SO stupid that they would pay $400 to have their water 'infused with energy' !
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby kennyc » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:04 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:I tried both even before your advice. Again, it is likely that my location here is blocking my ability to do so out! Using the ytube video button in the menu only shows the data without the image in plain script; and taking out the 's' only automatically replaces it back upon submission.

I've encountered that only once or twice and wouldn't know why that is.

But you said "ytube video button", that's not the new "video" button I meant.


Edit: I just tested your link with the "ytube" button and deleted the "s". It worked fine in Preview. They locked you out, Scott. :-P


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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Scott Mayers » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:24 am

Oh well...I just hope that the 'intelligence' of the readers of these people recognize their own power to be a part of their own roles as individual human beings and not just mindless censors to start questioning their own authorities who force them to do this job. ;)
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby delton137 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:59 pm

Hi,

I realize this is an old post, but I have written a https://moreisdifferent.wordpress.com/2015/11/19/debunking-exclusion-zone-water/%20blog%20post on the subject which is relevant for those wishing to do a deeper dive into the subject.

Clearly some of the grandiose claims of Dr. Pollack fly in the face of established science (such has his model for the structure of EZ water, which consists of the water molecules essentially ionizing for no apparent reason). None of Pollack's results indicate in chance in 'water structure'. To show that, one would have to use x-ray beam diffraction or some other technique. The microsphere exclusion zone is shown in his experiments, but it would have to be verified by an independent experimenter before I really believed it.

The systems he studies are plagued by secondary effects from charge buildup, microbubbles, and impurities. It also troubles me that he hasn't cited previous research on Nafion. The water-nafion structure isn't really known.

As far as the general concept of "structured water", as someone who has been in the field of studying water for a while, I can say that it while 'water structure' is a legit concept (it is the average structure of h-bonding around a given molecule), the most a surface has ever been shown to influence the structure of water is a few nanometers. The idea of persistent structures in water (above, say 100 picoseconds) is pretty much impossible as far as I know. There was a paper which reported an "ultra slow" relaxation mechanism in the dielectric spectra of water, but a few years later it was showed that it was due to microbubbles contaminating the experiment.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:59 pm

The forum seems to have broken your link. Does this work?

https://moreisdifferent.wordpress.com/2 ... one-water/
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Poodle » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:55 pm

Yep - that one works.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Juniper29 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:57 pm

I found this article on the science of structured water to be very helpful: https://goodtothelastdrop.com/science-structured-water/. I've been drinking structured water for over 2 years and can tell you from personal experience that it is super hydrating. I used to drink lots of water that would pass through my system very quickly (I was always running to the bathroom). But since switching to structured water, I can go for hours without having to pee. I also have a shower unit that helps keep my skin from getting so dry.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Poodle » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:47 pm

I'm working on pentagonal alcohol, which gets you as pissed as a newt yet produces no liver damage and actually enhances your sexual magnetism.

I have samples available which I have manufactured to taste just like whisky, rum or gin to magnify the authentic effect. Just send me £10 or equivalent for a 5 mil sample.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:57 pm

People, stay away from that structured water Juniper is spamming. It obviously is damaging to the kidneys!! :flushed:




(Poodle's pentagonal stuff, otoh, is much better than the Chianti and fava beans usually served with liver. Drown yerself in that!)
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Gord » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:40 pm

Juniper29 wrote:I found this article on the science of structured water to be very helpful:

:facepalm:

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html

...Some of these hucksters claim to make the water into clusters" that are larger, smaller, or hexagonal-shaped, allowing them to more readily promote "cellular hydration" and remove "toxins" from your body.

The fact is that none of these views has any significant support in the scientific communities of chemistry, biochemistry, or physiology, nor are they even considered worthy of debate. The only places you are likely to see these views advocated are in literature (and on Web sites) intended to promote the sale of these products to consumers in the notoriously credulous "alternative" health and "dietary supplement" market....
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Juniper29 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:52 pm

Ok, I was just telling you my personal experience after drinking structured water for 2 years. I may not have the science to prove it, but my health has dramatically improved since I began drinking it. Maybe it's a placebo response, but have any of you actually ever tried it? Liver damage? That's ridiculous. It's water poured through a glorified funnel.

I agree we need more research. But just because there is limited funding for this type of research, doesn't mean it should be completely written off. Clayton Nolte, founder of Natural Action, spent 40 years of his life researching and developing it. 40 years.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:25 pm

Juniper29 wrote: spent 40 years of his life researching and developing it. 40 years.


So did Emmanuel Velikovsky. What an inspiring precedent. :lol:
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:52 pm

Juniper: why do you thinking not pissing is a good thing? Removing waste from the body is a good thing.

I think you have a few things...... plugged up.
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:38 am

Or switched around... by some inept practitioner?
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby waterforlife » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:57 am

You guys seem pretty good at attacking Juniper on his viewpoint on Structured water, but unless you have tried it yourselves you are simply showing your sheep like mentalities.

I'm not a scientist nor do I sell devices that structure water. I am a water protection activist and am currently putting a documentary together in an effort to wake people up about the importance of water.

I do however have a structured water device on my water mains at home. I made it myself and installed it about 5 years ago. Before I installed this device my water was toxic. I live 10 houses away from a dumping station ( a place where they add Chlorine, Fluoride, Copper to name but a few). If you wonder why I became a water activists it's because I used to be the guy that put those chemicals into the water system. When you used to have a hot shower the smell of the water used to make you want to throw up. Chlorine becomes gas in hot water and is highly toxic. Now my shower doesn't smell at all and my water tastes clean and soft. The plants in my vegetable garden are growing 30-40% better than they ever have. It kind of makes me feel like all the stuff I'm seeing on here is wrong. Not my scientific viewpoint just my observation. Oh no, that's right ... that doesn't count because no lab rats were used in my experiment.

My curiosity on this subject found me speaking to some of the biggest names in water science, including Dr. Martin Chaplin of London University South Bank. You remember him? He's the guy that debunked Homeopathy. Homeopathy is about energy transference and fractals. A company called NES Health have successfully been using this science, thought improved, for many many years. Their devices are FDA and TGA approved. Their infoceuticals work and they are just a better version of Homeopathy. www.neshealth.com, oh, and they only used structured water to make Infoceuticals. Anyway, back to Dr. Chaplin. I told Dr. Chaplin that he was wrong and that energy could be transferred into water. He said it couldn't. I said "Go get yourself 2 bottles of cheap wine and a bottle of 'structured' water. Get one bottle of wine and put it at the other end of the house , take the other bottle of wine and bump it against the Structured water bottle and then sit them beside each other. In 2 hours come back, taste the wine at the other end of the house and then come back and taste the other wine. He said he did that and that they both tasted differently. I said ... There you have it ... energy transferred from the water to the wine, same as Homeopathy and Infoceuticals. He said couldn't explain it but the experiment worked. Fact.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:20 pm

waterforlife wrote:You guys seem pretty good at attacking Juniper on his viewpoint on Structured water, but unless you have tried it yourselves you are simply showing your sheep like mentalities.
So..... we have sheep like mentalities do we? I have some bad news for you. This is a science based forum. We like scientific evidence. Here are three basic questions for you.

waterforlife wrote:"I told Dr. Chaplin that he was wrong and that energy could be transferred into water."

1) What is the exact molecular physics behind structured water?

2) What are the exact unique characteristics of "Structured Water".

3) What scientific experiment, that has been repeated and has controls, can you link us to, that details these physics.

If you can't answer these questions that indicates, you only have murky personal anecdotes to make up your entire religious belief system that "structured water" actually exists. You may as well claim you saw a UFO and forgotten to take a photo.

waterforlife wrote: Stop just reading stuff, go do stuff and get educated.
Educate us by answering the three questions above.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Gord » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:27 am

waterforlife wrote:You guys seem pretty good at attacking Juniper on his viewpoint on Structured water,

Or rather, at attacking the claims of structured water.

but unless you have tried it yourselves you are simply showing your sheep like mentalities.

WRONG.png


"Go get yourself 2 bottles of cheap wine and a bottle of 'structured' water. Get one bottle of wine and put it at the other end of the house , take the other bottle of wine and bump it against the Structured water bottle and then sit them beside each other. In 2 hours come back, taste the wine at the other end of the house and then come back and taste the other wine. He said he did that and that they both tasted differently. I said ... There you have it ... energy transferred from the water to the wine, same as Homeopathy and Infoceuticals. He said couldn't explain it but the experiment worked. Fact.

Stop just reading stuff, go do stuff and get educated.

:laff:
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:47 am

What on earth did they let that wine (and the tester) breathe? :lol:
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Cur10uS » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:57 pm

I'm curious, is this a skeptic's website, or a cynics website? It seems as though most the post are not debunking Pollack's claims, but rather making claims of their own that could use some debunking. Im specifically speaking to those claiming that Dr. Pollack and others that are studying and developing structured water, and their benefits, are doing so solely for their own personal interest. Do you believe Dr. Pollack is making these claims solely to promote expensive healing devices, or do you think he genuinely cares for his science and is like many other scientists, hoping to uncover scientific findings that may offer some use to the human race and nature?

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:56 pm

Cur10uS wrote:Do you believe Dr. Pollack is making these claims solely to promote expensive healing devices, or do you think he genuinely cares for his science and is like many other scientists, hoping to uncover scientific findings that may offer some use to the human race and nature?


If he issued a scientific paper explaining the physics of his claim, his falsifiable hypothesis and supporting experimentation, then yes, we would take him seriously. However, he hasn't, so it's a moot point. Skeptics can only assess claims fully presented to them.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Gord » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:15 am

Cur10uS wrote:I'm curious, is this a skeptic's website, or a cynics website?

Yes.

But don't worry, even cranks and nutbars are allowed to post here. ;)
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:24 am

Cur10uS wrote:I'm curious, is this a skeptic's website, or a cynics website? It seems as though most the post are not debunking Pollack's claims, but rather making claims of their own that could use some debunking. Im specifically speaking to those claiming that Dr. Pollack and others that are studying and developing structured water, and their benefits, are doing so solely for their own personal interest. Do you believe Dr. Pollack is making these claims solely to promote expensive healing devices, or do you think he genuinely cares for his science and is like many other scientists, hoping to uncover scientific findings that may offer some use to the human race and nature?

Via Hitchens' Razor, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The burden of proof is on those alleging the hypothesis to be factual. Until such evidence is presented for examination, there's no reason to take the hypothesis seriously, is there? We are skeptical because of the lack of evidence.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Poodle » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:59 am

This again? I think we may have proof of the power of structured water to serially melt brains.

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:09 am

waterforlife wrote:You guys seem pretty good at attacking Juniper on his viewpoint on Structured water, but unless you have tried it yourselves you are simply showing your sheep like mentalities.


Go look up what "anecdotal evidence" is and why it is TEXTBOOK faulty. Its value is on par with "Believe it because I said so."


waterforlife wrote: I'm not a scientist ........


Well................. why don't you go stand next to one?
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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:02 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
waterforlife wrote:You guys seem pretty good at attacking Juniper on his viewpoint on Structured water, but unless you have tried it yourselves you are simply showing your sheep like mentalities.

Go look up what "anecdotal evidence" is and why it is TEXTBOOK faulty. Its value is on par with "Believe it because I said so."

Not only that, but since when does refusal to try a substance equate to a sheep-like mentality? I refuse to try heroin; does that mean I have a sheep-like mentality? No, it simply means I've examined the scientific evidence and concluded it's a bloody dangerous drug that destroys body, mind, and life. I don't need firsthand experience to confirm it, and it would be ridiculously stupid to attempt to get that experience.

In this case, there is no scientific evidence that this substance even exists as described, never mind is beneficial in any way. In fact, what evidence there is points to a money-making scam.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Structured Water...Needs Debunking ?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:47 pm

Luna: so, what you are saying is we are actually being told: "Believe me because I think you are that ignorant and I can make money off your stupidity?"

Why, thats even more pernicious than I thought. Not even in the field of epistemology.
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